The Autokrator of Rum

The spider weaves the curtains in the palace of the Caesars; the owl calls the watches in the towers of Afrasiab

Okay, by 1090 things were starting to look better for the Byzantines; they'd defeated the Normans, the Crusade was about to happen, and so forth. But there was another problem.

Caka Bey, referred to in Greek sources as Tzachas, is notable for building the first fleet in Seljuq history. Built by Christian shipwrights, but still. Capturing Lesbos, Samos, and Rhodes, from his capital in Smyrna he was, understandably, a concern Byzantines. He died in 1095, either at the hands of the Seljuq Sultan Kilij Arslan or at the hands of the Byzantines at the city of Abydos.

Okay, he has an interesting past, which is worth going into. He was captured by a Byzantine general in the reign of Nicephorus III, who released him with gifts on the hope that he'd be a Byzantine ally. Which he was, spending time in Constantinople, until Alexius I came to the throne. Declaring himself emperor, he built a fleet and the rest was history.

Okay. So, what to do with him?

Let's say Robert of Guiscard doesn't die in 1084. He doesn't take Constantinople, but he weakens Alexius's position; and when the Pechenegs ravage his army a few years later, he's assassinated.

It's a short step from there for the Turkish Caesar to step across the straits...
 

Rockingham

Banned
The spider weaves the curtains in the palace of the Caesars; the owl calls the watches in the towers of Afrasiab

Okay, by 1090 things were starting to look better for the Byzantines; they'd defeated the Normans, the Crusade was about to happen, and so forth. But there was another problem.

Caka Bey, referred to in Greek sources as Tzachas, is notable for building the first fleet in Seljuq history. Built by Christian shipwrights, but still. Capturing Lesbos, Samos, and Rhodes, from his capital in Smyrna he was, understandably, a concern Byzantines. He died in 1095, either at the hands of the Seljuq Sultan Kilij Arslan or at the hands of the Byzantines at the city of Abydos.

Okay, he has an interesting past, which is worth going into. He was captured by a Byzantine general in the reign of Nicephorus III, who released him with gifts on the hope that he'd be a Byzantine ally. Which he was, spending time in Constantinople, until Alexius I came to the throne. Declaring himself emperor, he built a fleet and the rest was history.

Okay. So, what to do with him?

Let's say Robert of Guiscard doesn't die in 1084. He doesn't take Constantinople, but he weakens Alexius's position; and when the Pechenegs ravage his army a few years later, he's assassinated.

It's a short step from there for the Turkish Caesar to step across the straits...
Hmmmm.....would this neccesarily mean a Muslim East Roman Empire? Or would he convert?
 
Isn't it kind of early though? Anatolia isn't muslim yet, and of course the European Empire was still fully Christian. If he seizes the purple as a Muslim, he would be a muslim ruler over an entirely Christian empire with only a few turkish tribesmen sharing his faith. Wouldn't he see the benefits of conversion?
 

Keenir

Banned
If he seizes the purple as a Muslim, he would be a muslim ruler over an entirely Christian empire with only a few turkish tribesmen sharing his faith. Wouldn't he see the benefits of conversion?

how quickly did the Manchus convert when they took over China? or the Normans upon winning England?
(or the Khazars over their realm)
 
how quickly did the Manchus convert when they took over China? or the Normans upon winning England?
(or the Khazars over their realm)

I'm pretty sure both the Manchus and the Normans shared the faith of those they conquered. (insofar as state Confucianism is a faith) The only real example I can think of is the Ilkhanate which lasted 40 years before converting to Islam, but that might be a special case. The Yuan for example, became quite fully Chinese by the second Emperor. The Latin rulers of the crusader states never converted, but they are certainly a special case considering the nature of the states.
 
how quickly did the Manchus convert when they took over China? or the Normans upon winning England?
(or the Khazars over their realm)
Err...what? :confused:

England and the Normans were both Christian by 1066.

I can't speak for the Chinese and Manchu's respective religions, but I'm sure Hendryk could.

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Anyhow, I'm sure that with the Byzantines being overthrown (or at least the aristocracy), the Normans would at least pick up some islands in the Adriatic, if not coastal Albania.
 
How likely is it that he would even claim the title of Kaiser e Rum (the Turkish translation for Roman Emperor, or at least the title that Mehmet II claimed when he took Constantinople in 1453)?

In the wake of the Turkish seizure of Constantinople, the Byzantines freak-out (as well they should) and invite the Normans to protect them? The Normans prosecute a short and very successful war, and are able to retake Constantinople with significant help from the city's Christian population. The Normans have now achieved the hard-sought goal of taking Constantinople, and are formally invested with the Purple in the Hagia Sophia.

The energetic Normans, with this new Empire, are now able to generally avoid the intra-Norman feuds. The spare Norman lords fight for the greater glory of the Empire (and their own land) on the Anatolian frontier.

The Guiscards (Hellenize this name somehow) lead the Byzantine reconquest of Anatolia, leading to the massive Norman victory outside the walls of Iconium in 1136. The victory destroyed the Iconium Sultanate, and restored the Byzantines' pre-'66 borders.

The Normans used the Byzantine administration, with some major reforms, and after the take-over of Anatolia focused on the reconquest of the Holy Land and Egypt. The Guiscard Dynasty reaches its height at the end of the 12th century, having retaken nearly all of the pre-Arab Empire, and created a lasting alliance with the the Holy Roman Empire.

Norman wanks are fun.
 
It's possible, but I prefer the idea of Muslims taking over the Empire.

Muslims taking over the Empire in the scenario you just described?

I'd say that's pretty unlikely - Çaka Bey's position is much, much weaker than that of the Ottomans IOTL, and Constantinople will be very hard to take, even if the Byzantine militairy is seriously weakened.

...and the only chance that the Byzantine ruling elite will accept him as emperor without too much of a fight (they'll never *just* accept a Muslim), is if Çaka Bey converts.

And as xchen points out, the position of Islam in western Anatolia and the European part of the Byzantine Empire is still very weak compared to the influence Islam had in these territories in 1450 IOTL.

And if Çaka Bey is bent on seizing the throne of the Byzantine Empire, then converting indeed would make things *a lot* easier for him.

Just like xchen says, he certainly would see the benefits of converting.

...and let's just say that converting in order to gain a crown and a throne is not unprecedented in history...
 
How likely is it that he would even claim the title of Kaiser e Rum (the Turkish translation for Roman Emperor, or at least the title that Mehmet II claimed when he took Constantinople in 1453)?

Anna Commenus tells us he called himself emperor.

He may, or may not, have been Christian; the evidence for it is that he got on well with his Christian subjects, and was in Byzantine service.


The Normans used the Byzantine administration, with some major reforms, and after the take-over of Anatolia focused on the reconquest of the Holy Land and Egypt. The Guiscard Dynasty reaches its height at the end of the 12th century, having retaken nearly all of the pre-Arab Empire, and created a lasting alliance with the the Holy Roman Empire.

Norman wanks are fun.


I for one am shocked.
 
Muslims taking over the Empire in the scenario you just described?

I'd say that's pretty unlikely - Çaka Bey's position is much, much weaker than that of the Ottomans IOTL, and Constantinople will be very hard to take, even if the Byzantine militairy is seriously weakened

...and the only chance that the Byzantine ruling elite will accept him as emperor without too much of a fight (they'll never *just* accept a Muslim), is if Çaka Bey converts.

This is what the navy is for, and the Pecheneg alliance.

IMO of course.

And as xchen points out, the position of Islam in western Anatolia and the European part of the Byzantine Empire is still very weak compared to the influence Islam had in these territories in 1450 IOTL.

Sure; and yet nevertheless they did reach the shores of the Aegean.

...and let's just say that converting in order to gain a crown and a throne is not unprecedented in history...

Except it'd cost him support among the Seljuks, who are less than thrilled with this.

It's possible, I suppose. But "a weaker Byzantium in the 12th century" seems less interesting.

YMMV.
 
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