The Autobiography of Arthur

[Brainbin]

Great Installment Lach

I have to agree with Brain

You're just a serial name abbreviator, aren't you, Hist?

Thanks for the support. I really wasn't so sure about the scene with Father.

You're very welcome.

I think that scene ties the whole thing together. It really shows us that Henry VII is practicing what he preaches; he honestly believes he's doing what's best for the Kingdom, even though he's obviously suffering for it, too.

 

[LacheyS]

Thanks, Historico. There will be changes in dynasty and I may require expertise to decide who will marry whom. Mary will not be available to marry to Louis XII; Arthur will already have arranged her marriage. There are some plans. His youngest sister, Joan, will be too young to take the "opportunity" since she will not be born until 1507 and thus will be too young for breeding purposes.

Any suggestions?

I don't think Henry VII was a bad king. He ended the war and brought peace, but he constrained prosperity. We'll see how King Arthur I goes about spending all the cash.

In the next installment: Queen Elizabeth dies.

 

[Julius Vogel]

Considering that his wife and brother are both devoutly Catholic, and that cumulatively they'll likely wield the most influence over him throughout his reign, I also think he would remain Catholic. Although he might be relatively tolerant of Protestantism, like OTL Francis I, at least until they start causing trouble.

Speaking of Francis I, since we're moving past the POD, what's your butterfly policy going to be? After all, it's entirely possible that he never becomes King - all it would take is for one of Louis XII's many stillborn sons to survive instead.

Anyway, great post. You're really good at making England feel like such a dreary, backward, medieval place, that could be so much greater if only that miserly skinflint tyrant weren't in charge. You're also making me very grateful to have heating.


Wise words indeed. I guess it really is more skill than luck that the Howards did so well for themselves despite being on the wrong side so often.

On your heating point - I visited Hampton Court Palace a couple of years back in the height of Winter and I was quite surprised just how cold the dammed place got, even in the royal chambers. Let alone the other bits.

 

[mcdnab]

Few points:

Do we really have to go the Henry was a miserable old miser who kept his wife and children in poverty and hoarded millions.
It just isn't true

Henry VII was indeed very careful of money (his income was considerably smaller than most of his royal contemporaries though he considerably increased it) however he was not personally miserly in terms of court life etc - the descriptions sent to Spain of the arrangements for Arthurs wedding etc prompted Isabella to express concerns about extravagance that might reflect badly on her daughter.

An English Queen had her own income (which paid for her court her dependents etc) - Elizabeth of York's accounts are interesting in her support for her family etc and her expenditure. (in fact in OTL when Arthur died it was Elizabeth of York's privy purse that paid for a new litter to bring Catherine to London etc)

Arthur's household at Ludlow and at Haddon was considerable and perfectly fitting for the heir - in fact even his name and christening were designed by Henry personally to emphases his own claimed descent from King Arthur of legend.

Henry's younger children (Henry Margaret and Mary) were brought up in considerable style largely under the direct control of their mother.

 

[Brainbin]

Any suggestions?

I have one. John III of Portugal. It gives Portugal a stronger claim to the throne of England than their existing one through John of Gaunt (but not nearly strong enough to be trouble, unlike OTL Scotland), and I checked - John and Joan are second cousins through John II of Aragon, and we all know how the Iberian monarchies love inbreeding. (But they're not too close, which could mean healthier children). Joan is even the same age as Catherine of Austria. And we know Arthur will have enough to pay the dowry, thanks to his father scrimping and saving. And he loves adventure, right? Well, closer relations with the only power to have trade outposts all over the globe can only be a good thing in that respect.

And, of course, England and Portugal are old friends. Why mess with a winning formula?

 

[LacheyS]

Few points:

Do we really have to go the Henry was a miserable old miser who kept his wife and children in poverty and hoarded millions.
It just isn't true

Henry VII was indeed very careful of money (his income was considerably smaller than most of his royal contemporaries though he considerably increased it) however he was not personally miserly in terms of court life etc - the descriptions sent to Spain of the arrangements for Arthurs wedding etc prompted Isabella to express concerns about extravagance that might reflect badly on her daughter.

An English Queen had her own income (which paid for her court her dependents etc) - Elizabeth of York's accounts are interesting in her support for her family etc and her expenditure. (in fact in OTL when Arthur died it was Elizabeth of York's privy purse that paid for a new litter to bring Catherine to London etc)

Arthur's household at Ludlow and at Haddon was considerable and perfectly fitting for the heir - in fact even his name and christening were designed by Henry personally to emphases his own claimed descent from King Arthur of legend.

Henry's younger children (Henry Margaret and Mary) were brought up in considerable style largely under the direct control of their mother.

All I can say is that I am writing from the perspective of Arthur, so things might be different. Most importantly, I'm writing how a son might view his father, which does not necessarily have to be completely accurate. I'm sure, for example, that I view my father differently from how a contemporary historian writing about his activities may. I also know for certain that I view my father very different than I did as a teenager, when he was clearly not as competent or wise as I see him now. So, please don't get too cranky about my artistic license.

I have one. John III of Portugal. It gives Portugal a stronger claim to the throne of England than their existing one through John of Gaunt (but not nearly strong enough to be trouble, unlike OTL Scotland), and I checked - John and Joan are second cousins through John II of Aragon, and we all know how the Iberian monarchies love inbreeding. (But they're not too close, which could mean healthier children). Joan is even the same age as Catherine of Austria. And we know Arthur will have enough to pay the dowry, thanks to his father scrimping and saving. And he loves adventure, right? Well, closer relations with the only power to have trade outposts all over the globe can only be a good thing in that respect.

And, of course, England and Portugal are old friends. Why mess with a winning formula?

I was actually asking if someone could suggest a marriage partner for Louis XII. However, the marriage of Princess Joan Tudor to her cousin, King John III of Portugal, would certainly work nicely. Thanks!

 

[DrakeRlugia]

For Louis XII, maybe a surviving Sforza to strengthen his claims on Milan? Bona Sforza was born in 1493... or perhaps a d'Este, as they were quite pro-French at the time IIRC. I know Louis XII's daughter married into the family. Another idea, if Louis XII still desires close relations with England, is one of the younger Yorkist sisters of Elizabeth... Brigit (b. 1480) comes to mind, as does Catherine (b. 1479) if she loses her husband, the Earl of Devon early. Although Brigit was a nun, that situation could fixed. The issue is, though... those women have Yorkist blood. They are also a little old (30 and 31 respectively in 1510), but not too old to preclude having children. Still, I think the Sforza would be more tempting.

 

[LacheyS]

For Louis XII, maybe a surviving Sforza to strengthen his claims on Milan? Bona Sforza was born in 1493... or perhaps a d'Este, as they were quite pro-French at the time IIRC. I know Louis XII's daughter married into the family. Another idea, if Louis XII still desires close relations with England, is one of the younger Yorkist sisters of Elizabeth... Brigit (b. 1480) comes to mind, as does Catherine (b. 1479) if she loses her husband, the Earl of Devon early. Although Brigit was a nun, that situation could fixed. The issue is, though... those women have Yorkist blood. They are also a little old (30 and 31 respectively in 1510), but not too old to preclude having children. Still, I think the Sforza would be more tempting.

It is particularly tempting when you consider how highly fertile Ms Sforza and the potential which that opens for a French regency from 1515 until 1530 or thereabouts, should her child with Louis XII be a son. If her ancestor, Francesco Sforza, could claim through an illegitimate female line, why should her son not be able to ascend to Milan through a legitimate female? She would be Regent now for her son against the sons of Ludovico on one hand and the conspiring of Francis, Duc d'Valois on the other.

I would be interested in speculation about how Bona Sforza may go as Regent of France. What would be her chance of surviving?

 

[Historico]

Sorry to digress from the topic of potential alternate marriages for Louis XII. But I was wondering Lach about the consequences of having Henry VII marry Joan of Naples and having issue. If there is a son born to the Italian Queen, what are the chances that if Henry has a son(Let's name him Jasper Tudor after, Henry's beloved uncle) with Joan, that Jasper could inherit the much sought after throne of Naples? Although the French have it in their clutches at this point, if Louis can't succeed in producing a son as IOTL, it might give a theoretical Prince Jasper Tudor, a pretty decent claim to the throne since I don't think the Kingdom of Naples was necessarily tied down by Salic Law. I guess it just depends on whether or not King Arthur decide its worth fighting the Spanish and French over it in an extended Italian wars...Who knows giving the throne the English, might be seen as a compromise pick as Jasper is neither Hapsburg or Valois, but being seen as half Trastamara might be enough for Jasper to gain the support of the Neapolitan people

Just a suggestion of course...

 

[DrakeRlugia]

It is particularly tempting when you consider how highly fertile Ms Sforza and the potential which that opens for a French regency from 1515 until 1530 or thereabouts, should her child with Louis XII be a son. If her ancestor, Francesco Sforza, could claim through an illegitimate female line, why should her son not be able to ascend to Milan through a legitimate female? She would be Regent now for her son against the sons of Ludovico on one hand and the conspiring of Francis, Duc d'Valois on the other.

I would be interested in speculation about how Bona Sforza may go as Regent of France. What would be her chance of surviving?

Exactly. I'd rate her chances quite good: she was pretty astute. Hell, she only died when she did because her trusted officer was in the pay of Philip II. The Spanish King owed her a fair bit of money so he decided to off her instead of paying.

Also, interesting, Bona Sforza is the holder of the Brienne claim to Jerusalem. Another tempting way for Louis to bind Italy closer to him, as the claim was traditionally part of the Neopolitan crown.

 

[Brainbin]

It is particularly tempting when you consider how highly fertile Ms Sforza and the potential which that opens for a French regency from 1515 until 1530 or thereabouts, should her child with Louis XII be a son. If her ancestor, Francesco Sforza, could claim through an illegitimate female line, why should her son not be able to ascend to Milan through a legitimate female? She would be Regent now for her son against the sons of Ludovico on one hand and the conspiring of Francis, Duc d'Valois on the other.

It would also open up a whole other can of worms. Because Francis would already be betrothed to Claude, who would become Duchess of Brittany on the death of her mother. Assuming the marriage goes through, that makes him Duke Consort of a Brittany that remains sovereign and independent from France, and we all know how French fief-holders tend to be a problem for their "overlord" Kings...

Sorry to digress from the topic of potential alternate marriages for Louis XII. But I was wondering Lach about the consequences of having Henry VII marry Joan of Naples and having issue. If there is a son born to the Italian Queen, what are the chances that if Henry has a son(Let's name him Jasper Tudor after, Henry's beloved uncle) with Joan, that Jasper could inherit the much sought after throne of Naples? Although the French have it in their clutches at this point, if Louis can't succeed in producing a son as IOTL, it might give a theoretical Prince Jasper Tudor, a pretty decent claim to the throne since I don't think the Kingdom of Naples was necessarily tied down by Salic Law. I guess it just depends on whether or not King Arthur decide its worth fighting the Spanish and French over it in an extended Italian wars...Who knows giving the throne the English, might be seen as a compromise pick as Jasper is neither Hapsburg or Valois, but being seen as half Trastamara might be enough for Jasper to gain the support of the Neapolitan people.

LacheyS has already said that there will be a son born to Henry VII and Joan, who will be named Edmund. And he would have a good claim to the throne of Naples, but don't forget that the legitimate heir to Frederick IV, the last King of Naples, actually lived to 1550 in OTL - and he's as Trastamara as they come.

 

[LacheyS]

It would also open up a whole other can of worms. Because Francis would already be betrothed to Claude, who would become Duchess of Brittany on the death of her mother. Assuming the marriage goes through, that makes him Duke Consort of a Brittany that remains sovereign and independent from France, and we all know how French fief-holders tend to be a problem for their "overlord" Kings...

LacheyS has already said that there will be a son born to Henry VII and Joan, who will be named Edmund. And he would have a good claim to the throne of Naples, but don't forget that the legitimate heir to Frederick IV, the last King of Naples, actually lived to 1550 in OTL - and he's as Trastamara as they come.

I've made the amendments in the final text which will allow Brittany to remain independent.

 

[LacheyS]

VII​

It was true, what Surrey had said. The Queen my mother was with child. She was confined in February, 1503, on Candlemas Day and delivered a stillborn daughter. She died nine days later, on her thirty-seventh birthday.

There were many days of official mournings, days while the sculptors worked hurriedly to carve the funeral effigy for her mourning car. It must be an exact likeness, so it would appear that she was still alive, clad in her robes and furs, as the cortege wound its way from the Tower, where she had died, to Westminster, where she was buried. The people saw their good Queen again and carried this last picture of her in their minds. Last impressions are just as important as first ones.

I heard the King weeping, late one night. However, we never shared either of our sorrows or did so much as discuss anything but funeral arrangements.

The day of the funeral was one of those cold and foggy London days. The mist turned blue making even noon seem like twilight. Torches blazed as the procession made its way to the beat of muffled drums. The yeoman of the guard led the hearse, a carriage of twenty feet, all in black and pulled by eight horses. Atop sat the effigy of the Queen in her royal robes and smiling serenely. They were followed by thirty-seven young women, all in white and carrying candles. Then by the family: Father, myself and Catherine, Margaret, Henry and little six-year-old Mary.

The procession was following by a Requiem Mass inside Westminster Abbey. Warham celebrated the Mass. I noted the attendance of Thomas More on behalf of the great scholar Erasmus.

That night, as I prepared for bed, I told Catherine how much more tired I felt. It had been dark for hours; by the time events in the Abbey were over, the daylight had long since fled. She brought me some wine mixed with honey and I slept.

I dreamt of the gardens at Eltham. The Queen was there laughing and healthy. She kissed me and told me that I should have a daughter, just like her father, and that her name would be Elizabeth. I woke up with my heart pounding in my chest. For an instance, I was panicked and then Catherine was there, drawing back the curtains and calming my hysteria. The squares of the moonlight exactly reproduced the panes of my window.

We lay back down and talked. And I cried – the last tears of my childhood. My mother was put into her tomb and a monument was to be erected. However, she promised that she would name our second daughter, Elizabeth, in honour of my mother. We had already promised to name our first daughter for the Virgin.

 

[Historico]

Awesome update, I guess I had missed that you had named Henry's son with Joan as Edmund; because that same segment mentions the infants who died IOTL Edmund and Katherine...the depth of their loss weighing on the monarchy enough for them not even to speak their names. So I figured why not go with Jasper, since he really was the crucial masculine figure of Henry's young adulthood?

 

[LacheyS]

Awesome update, I guess I had missed that you had named Henry's son with Joan as Edmund; because that same segment mentions the infants who died IOTL Edmund and Katherine...the depth of their loss weighing on the monarchy enough for them not even to speak their names. So I figured why not go with Jasper, since he really was the crucial masculine figure of Henry's young adulthood?

Thanks. Just to clarify: on the eve of the death of Henry VII, he has six surviving children and three surviving grandchildren. The surviving royal family at this time is:

Arthur, Prince of Wales (b. 1486) - age 22. Arthur is married to Catherine of Aragon (b.1485) - age 23. They have three surviving children. These children are: Arthur, 6, Henry, 3 and Elizabeth, 1.

Queen Margaret of Scotland (b.1489) - age 20. She is married to King James IV of Scotland.

Henry, Duke of York (b.1491) - age 18. He are no plans for him to wed.

Princess Mary (b.1496) - age 13. She has betrothed to her cousin, Charles of Castile, since she was 10. They are scheduled to be married within the next five years.

Queen Joan (b.1478) - aged 31 - has two children:

Princess Joanna (b.1506) - age 2 and Prince Edmund (b.1508) - 8 months.

I appreciate that Jasper would make a nice alternate name for Edmund and we can change if you want. I'm also happy to change any other names of the unborn. We just need to get it official so that there's no more confusion.

 

[Brainbin]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Poor, dutiful Elizabeth. Such a sad update - but a good one.

They have three surviving children. These children are: Arthur, 6, Henry, 3 and Elizabeth, 1.

So far, so good! I take it Mary doesn't survive infancy? How ironic.

She has betrothed to her cousin, Charles of Castile, since she was 10. They are scheduled to be married within the next five years.

I knew you'd marry her off to Charles V! I wouldn't be able to resist either.

Princess Joanna (b.1506) - age 2 and Prince Edmund (b.1508) - 8 months.

You've said both Joan and Joanna for the Princess's name, so there is a small bit of confusion there.

I've made the amendments in the final text which will allow Brittany to remain independent.

I get the feeling Arthur and Francis are going to have a beautiful friendship.

 

[LacheyS]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Poor, dutiful Elizabeth. Such a sad update - but a good one.



So far, so good! I take it Mary doesn't survive infancy? How ironic.

I knew you'd marry her off to Charles V! I wouldn't be able to resist either.

You've said both Joan and Joanna for the Princess's name, so there is a small bit of confusion there.

I get the feeling Arthur and Francis are going to have a beautiful friendship.

Thanks. Their daughter Mary is one of the stillborn. So Elizabeth will be the name of the surviving daughter.

Yes, it is far too easy, considering the arrangements were already made, considering the great relationship between Joanna of Castile and Catherine of Aragon, considering that it makes Mary a Queen of Spain instead. And it means that Mary's daughters will be the right age to marry the sons of Claude, Duchess of Brittany, or vice versa.

I may have mistyped. So sorry about that. Joan's daughter will be named Joanna.

I think that the two men would get along. They would both be Renaissance princes and would face similar issues and problems.

 

[Lord Grattan]

A well thought out and enjoyable story.

 

[LacheyS]

A well thought out and enjoyable story.

Much appreciated.

 

[Historico]

Thanks. Just to clarify: on the eve of the death of Henry VII, he has six surviving children and three surviving grandchildren. The surviving royal family at this time is:

Arthur, Prince of Wales (b. 1486) - age 22. Arthur is married to Catherine of Aragon (b.1485) - age 23. They have three surviving children. These children are: Arthur, 6, Henry, 3 and Elizabeth, 1.

Queen Margaret of Scotland (b.1489) - age 20. She is married to King James IV of Scotland.

Henry, Duke of York (b.1491) - age 18. He are no plans for him to wed.

Princess Mary (b.1496) - age 13. She has betrothed to her cousin, Charles of Castile, since she was 10. They are scheduled to be married within the next five years.

Queen Joan (b.1478) - aged 31 - has two children:

Princess Joanna (b.1506) - age 2 and Prince Edmund (b.1508) - 8 months.

I appreciate that Jasper would make a nice alternate name for Edmund and we can change if you want. I'm also happy to change any other names of the unborn. We just need to get it official so that there's no more confusion.

Awesome,the Let's lock down Jasper as the name of the future King of Naples...Prince Jasper Tudor...Can't wait to see how the Prince of Wales deals with his father's search for a new bride...Keep it comming Lach