The Australian Civil War

Mayhem said:
Marvellous, DMA. I like how Kerr and Fraser get taken away.
BTW, who wins the '76 election? :)


I'm glad you liked it ;)

To be honest I hadn't given it any thought as to who won the 76 election. Probably Labor, but I wouldn't really know.


Mayhem said:
One POD I was thinking about was pehaps following no Federation in 1901, and then failed future attempts, the states go to war sometime after World War 1, over differences in foreign policy, or one state trying to declare independance.


That is possible & it wouldn't surprise me. Maybe one of the colonies decides to a Prussia by forcing unification.


Mayhem said:
Another one was a solid resistance by the Aborigines in perhaps the 1830s or later, particularly led by the Rainbow Warrior (cant remember his name). There practically was a war in Tasmania, to get rid of the locals, and there were a lot of aborigines murdered by white settlers. If a large group of indiginous people banded together, perhaps funded by the French or Germans...


Actually there's the Bathurst War of the 1820s which sees much of what you're say here (although they didn't get any help from anyone).


Mayhem said:
NSW-Victoria conflict sounds most likely no matter what the POD, BTW.


Well we New South Welshmen prefer picking on the Cane Toads ;)
 
The Australian War of Independence

Or

The Australian Civil War



1 January 1975 Gough Whitlam; Australian Labor Party (ALP), is Prime Minister of Australia.

Jim Cairns (ALP) is Deputy Prime Minister.

Billy Snedden; Liberal Party (LP), is Opposition leader.

Doug Anthony; Country Party (CP), is Deputy Opposition leader.

LP & CP in coalition.

REX Connor (ALP) & Cairns both have authority to raise secret loans for the government.

7 January 1975 Connor’s loan authority revoked.

10 March 1975 Cairns approaches businessman George Harris about loans worth $2000 million.

14 March 1975 Andrew Peacock (LP) calls for LP leadership issue to be resolved.

21 March 1975 Malcolm Fraser (LP) overthrows Snedden as LP leader.

20 May 1975 Cairns’ loan authority revoked.

6 June 1975 Cabinet reshuffle. Cairns is replaced as Treasurer by Bill Hayden (ALP)

2 July 1975 Fraser reveals that Cairns has continued loan inquires & mislead Parliament. Cairns is dismissed from the Government.

12 July 1975 Don Dunstan (ALP) narrowly wins the South Australian state election.

19 August 1975 Hayden ALP Budget announced.

26 August 1975 Fraser replies to the ALP Budget.

9 September 1975 Queensland Premier Jo Bjelke-Petersen (CP) appoints Albert Field Queensland Senator to replace ALP Senator Milliner (died in office).

14 October 1975 It is revealed in Parliament that Connor continued to negotiate for loans & mislead Parliament. Connor resigns.

Fraser decides to block the Budget.

16 October 1975 Senate blocks the Budget with a majority of one - a combination of LP & CP numbers and Albert Field.

Whitlam govt stays in office.

1-10 November 1975 Negotiations take place between the ALP & LP/CP. No mutual settlement to the crisis can be found.

11 November 1975 The Governor-General John Kerr secretly phones the Chief Justice of the High Court for advice. Chief Justice Barwick (a former LP MP) suggests that Kerr has the power to dismiss the Whitlam govt & appoint Fraser as PM.

Kerr secretly phones Fraser for his advice which is to sack the Whitlam govt & call for new elections.

At 11am Kerr, in a simple letter, dismisses the Whitlam govt & calls for new elections. Fraser is made caretaker PM.

At 1pm, after discovering his govt has been dismissed by Kerr, Whitlam stands on the steps of Parliament & refuses to go. He announces "Well may we say God save the Queen, because nothing will save the Governor-General!" Whitlam & his fellow members returns to the House & Senate.

The LP/CP boycotts Parliament. Fraser & Kerr, however, are stunned. Confusion reigns as to who is the legitimate government of Australia.

Protests break out across Australia both supporting & condemning Whitlam.

12 November 1975 Barwick declares that Whitlam is acting unconstitutionally & must obey Kerr’s dismissal order.

Whitlam dismisses Barwick and cries treason.

Parliament declares unanimously (the LP/CP are not there) that Kerr has acted unconstitutionally & must resign.

Both Kerr & Barwick refuse & once more demand that Whitlam resign or be himself charged with treason.

Fraser opens the "Rump" Parliament at The Lodge (the PM’s residence in Canberra). The Rump government is sworn in by Kerr & is ordered to remove Whitlam from the Parliament Building.

Manning Clark, Australia's most prominent historian, writes: "Have we become a nation of bastards?".

Protests continue throughout Australia. Arrests are made, but violence is minimal.

13 November 1975 Whitlam & the others refuse to leave the Parliament Building & have blockaded themselves in.

Fraser opens negotiations, but Whitlam decrees that Fraser can only surrender with no negotiated conditions or terms.

Protesters are calming down, while Australia starts to watch the drama unfold on national TV.

14 November 1975 The Queen of Great Britain refuses to become involved in the Australian Crisis. The UK Parliament declares it can do nothing as per the articles in the Westminster Act 1931.

The governments of India, Singapore, Malaysia & China all express outrage at Kerr’s & Fraser’s actions & withdraw their ambassadors in protest.

Fraser & Whitlam continue negotiations.

15-17 November 1975 Fraser & Whitlam continue negotiations.

Small protests continue across Australia.

18 November 1975 Kerr demands immediate action from Fraser to resolve the situation.

Fraser orders all power & phones to be cut to the Parliamentary Building. This proves to be pointless as the Building has its own generators & radio network. Word quickly leaks out about the latest action.

A crowd of onlookers/protesters starts to build around Parliament. TV & press personnel are everywhere covering the events.

19-20 November 1975 Fraser & Whitlam continue negotiations.

Small protests continue, but life starts to get back to normal for most.

21 November 1975 Negotiations break down as neither party is willing to budge.

22 November 1975 The crowd has gathered to several thousand people outside Parliament. Whitlam addresses the people who are mostly supporters. They cheer every word.

Opinion polls clearly show outrage against Kerr & Fraser in this matter. If an election was held today the ALP would win hands down.

Kerr is furious after watching Whitlam on TV exciting the crowd. Again he orders Fraser to do something.

23 November 1975 Fraser orders the Federal Police to surround the Parliamentary Building & remove the crowd now numbering some 10 000.

The Federal Police move slowly & cautiously. Although fights break out, no one is seriously hurt. About 100 people are arrested. All this is shown on live TV.

Protests again start up around Australia.

Bob Hawke, national leader of the Australian Union movement, declares a national strike for November 24 (next day).

24 November 1975 Most union members go on strike. This includes most of the Federal Police in Canberra. Other State police officers remain on duty. There are only two Federal Police officers surrounding the Parliamentary Building.

The crowds & media return to their previous locations where they were evicted from the previous day.

Kerr watches all this on TV and is furious. He orders Fraser to call out the army & surround the Parliamentary Building.

Large protest marches are in every city in Australia. Many sense a new beginning for Australia. There is some violence, but the protesters are mostly peaceful.

25 November 1975 Fraser defers calling out the army, albeit they have been on alert since November 11.

Fraser & Whitlam start negotiations again.

Protests across Australia continue, albeit not as large.

26 November 1975 Negotiations continue between Fraser & Whitlam, but yet again they get no where.

Letter bombs are sent to Jo Bjelke-Petersen’s office in Brisbane. An office clerk is badly injured when one explodes while opening it. Bjelke-Petersen announces a state of emergency as a result.

27 November 1975 Most Australians stay home to watch the show in Canberra.

Kerr again orders Fraser to call out the army.

Fraser reluctantly complies & the army cautiously moves the crowd & media away from the Parliamentary Building area.

All remains quiet.

28 November 1975 Although the Canberra crowd protests the army’s presences, there is little they can do.

Whitlam orders the army to stand down. His orders are ignored.

Kerr threatens Whitlam that he will charge him with treason if he does not vacate Parliament.

Whitlam refuses Kerr’s order. Parliament passes the John Kerr Treason Act & demands Kerr be arrested & brought before Parliament for trial.

No one arrests Kerr.

29 November 1975 Kerr charges Whitlam with Treason. He orders Fraser to arrest Whitlam & all the ALP MPs in Parliament as traitors.

Fraser defers the matter to his Attorney General who, with Barwick, issues the warrants.

Australia is stunned while witnessing these extraordinary events.

30 November 1975 Whitlam is ordered to surrender himself & the others to the army. They have 24 hours, otherwise the army will storm the Parliamentary Building.

Whitlam & the others refuse to surrender & once more orders the army to stand down. The army ignores Whitlam’s orders.

Protests start again. Several hundred people are arrested in Queensland.

1 December 1975 Fraser defers the army’s actions for a further 24 hours trying to avoid any bloodshed. Kerr is furious at Fraser.

Fraser threatens Kerr with the sack if he does not restrain himself.

Australia remains quiet as the day goes by.

2 December 1975 The army once more demands Whitlam & company to leave the building. There is no reply.

At 2pm The army storms Parliament. Although several people are hurt, no one is killed. Whitlam, Hayden & Cairns cannot be found.

Australia riots. Battles start in every major city. The police struggle to keep control. Hundreds are injured, but no one is killed. Hundreds of protesters are arrested.

Manning Clark prophesies on evening TV, that "blood with flow in the streets".

3 December 1975 Fraser calls for calm. He is ignored.

Riots continue across Australia. The centre of Sydney catches on fire. Five protesters are killed in the blaze. The fire department manages to control the fire & finally puts it out.

Brisbane resembles a battle zone. No one, although hundreds are injured, is killed.

Dunstan appeals for calm in South Australia. Most protesters respond positively & protest peacefully. Those arrested earlier are released.

Although violent protests occur in Victoria, Western Australia & Tasmania, police manage to control the situation.

4 December 1975 Bjelke-Petersen declares marital law in all of Queensland. Public servants are made special constables. Many refuse & go on strike. Protests continue.

Across Australia protesters settle down.

There is no sign of Whitlam, Hayden or Cairns.

5 December 1975 Hayden is caught trying to get into Queensland (his home state). He is immediately arrested & charged with treason.

Although protests simmer across Australia, they are mostly non-violent.

6 December 1975 Day the Earth Moved. A huge protest crowd moves on the Brisbane Courthouse where Hayden is held. Police are out in force but are greatly out numbered. It appears 50 000 protesters are in the crowd. The police charge with battens which infuriates the crowd. They turn into a riotous mob & charge through the police lines injuring most of the police. Five police later die due to the hand-to-hand combat. Buildings are set alight & Brisbane starts to burn. The police at the Courthouse are ordered by Bjelke-Petersen to open fire. 29 protesters are killed and at least 60 more wounded. The crowd scatters rampaging through the streets of Brisbane.

Australia is shocked into silence by the events in Brisbane, which are broadcast nationally via TV.

7 December 1975 Protests start throughout Australia demanding Bjelke-Petersen be arrested & charged for murder.

Cairns arrives in Brisbane & organises a march to the Premier’s residence in Brisbane. As smoke fills the air in the background, 50 000 protesters march. They approach a line of public servant special constables who surrender their firearms & join the crowd. A desperate battle ensures at the Premier’s residence wherein Cairns is shot & killed while trying to stop the violence. The crowd rushes forward, disarms or kills the police & captures Bjelke-Petersen. In full view & televised over national TV, Bjelke-Petersen is shot several times in the head.

Anarchy rules in Queensland. The army leaves its bases & heads for Brisbane.

8 December 1975 Australia is horrified by the events in Queensland.

Fraser declares Marital Law throughout the nation.

Dunstan argues that Fraser’s Marital Law declaration is unconstitutional & threatens to secede his state from the Commonwealth. Fraser orders South Australia’s Governor, Mark Oliphant, to dismiss Dunstan.

Riots continue in Brisbane as the rest of Australia gets ready for civil war.

9 December 1975 South Australia secedes from the Commonwealth.

Kerr now orders Oliphant to dismiss Dunstan. Oliphant refuses & points out that Kerr & the Australian government no longer has any legal jurisdiction in South Australia.

Fraser orders the army to move on Adelaide & remove Dunstan & Oliphant.

Dunstan has pre-empted Fraser’s actions & ordered the SA state police to prevent the army leaving its barracks. Fortunately the police outnumber the army five to one. The army remains in its barracks.

Western Australia just watches the events in the East in horror.

10 December 1975 The army tries to enter Brisbane. Street battles commence & combat ensures. Hundreds become casualties on both sides.

Fraser & Kerr become nervous as events have gotten out of hand. The majority of Australians demand the blood of both.

Whitlam remains hidden but releases a media statement demanding that Fraser & Kerr resign & that the ALP be reinstated as the legitimate government.

11 December 1975 The street battles continue in Brisbane. Tanks are brought into the frey. Hundreds more become casualties.

The UN, UK & USA all protest the situation in Australia.

Protest marches again start throughout New South Wales & Victoria. Canberra is under tight military control.

12 December 1975 The army eventually makes its way into central Brisbane. Brisbane is a total war zone. Fighting continues. More casualties occur.

News gets out that some prisoners have been executed by the army. Its rumoured that one of these is Hayden.

13 December 1975 On the day the peaceful federal election was supposed to occur all hell breaks loose. Brisbane is overwhelmed with people of all ages & sex. The small army contingent is forced to surrender rather than fire on women & children.

The working class cities of Newcastle & Wollongong in NSW revolt & declare independence. The LP Premier of NSW, Lewis, orders the police to restore order. Most police call in sick. The others refuse to leave the police stations. The crowd though keeps control & no rioting occurs.

14 December 1975 A stand off occurs as Lewis considers what to do next.

Kerr demands that Lewis crush the rebellion & restore order.

Whitlam arrives in Newcastle to a hero’s welcome. He proclaims the Federal Republic of Australia. The Newcastle & Wollongong leaders announce their allegiance.

Lewis begins negotiations with the rebels. Whitlam requests that Lewis join the new Republic.

15 December 1975 Kerr & Fraser are horrified by the Whitlam declaration. They order Lewis to arrest Whitlam. Lewis defers.

Lewis rejects Whitlam’s requests and demands that he surrender himself to the police. Whitlam refuses.

Dunstan, upon hearing Whitlam’s declaration of a Republic, announces that South Australia is now a member of the Republic.

16 December 1975 The Queensland ALP &, ironically, LP form a coalition government in Brisbane. Marital Law is immediately lifted & rioting stops. The clean up begins.

Lewis calls on the army to reinstate law in Newcastle & Wollongong. The army cautiously leaves their barracks.

Some army personnel phone the rebels telling them of the army’s movements. The rebels arm themselves with what they can & set up barricades.

17 December 1975 The Northern Territory announces that it will join the Republic. The local army commander swears his allegiance to the Republic.

The army moves towards Newcastle & Wollongong where a stand off takes place.

Lewis again opens negotiations with Whitlam.

18 December 1975 The working class cities in Victoria of Geelong, Ballarat, & Bendigo rebel & declare allegiance to the Republic. The Victorian government does nothing.

The Eureka Flag is once more raised in Ballarat.

Negotiations continue between Lewis & Whitlam.

Kerr demands Lewis to send in the army. Lewis says no, he wishes to negotiate.

19 December 1975 The ALP/LP Queensland government announces that it will join the Republic.

Kerr is furious. He orders the army in Townsville to send troops to Brisbane & restore order. The Townsville army base refuses to answer any calls.

Negotiations continue between Whitlam & Lewis, but to an avail.

20 December 1975 Kerr orders the army into Newcastle & Wollongong. The troops at Newcastle refuse to move.

Battle, however, commences at Wollongong. Hundreds of casualties are suffered by both sides.

Lewis is furious that he has been bypassed. He phones Fraser & demands Kerr’s dismissal. Fraser rejects the demand.

21 December 1975 The Victorian police move on Ballarat. Several people are seriously injured, but there are no deaths. Many of the rebels escape.

Battles around Wollongong continue. More casualties occur. Tensions rise on the Newcastle front, but no fighting starts.

The army commander in Townsville declares for the Republic.

22 December 1975 A cease fire is agreed to for the Christmas - New Years period.

Negotiations commence between all parties. Whitlam & Dunstan on one side - Fraser, Kerr & Lewis on the other.

23-31 December 1975 Christmas cease fire holds.

Negotiations continue.

The Boxing Day Cricket Test match is enjoyed in Sydney with no disruptions.

On New Years Eve, the army & rebels at Newcastle spontaneously organise a One Day Cricket match between their lines. Army wins 198 runs to 176. It is the only victory the army has.

Life appears to be returning to normal.

1 January 1976 The country is divided. Half is still under the old regime, while the other half is now a Republic.

New Years Cricket Test Match in Melbourne. The MCG is full. Just as play commences, thousands of protesters storm the ground. Many are from Ballarat. The spectators hurl abuse at the protesters, then the police move in. The protest turns violent & a protester is shot & killed. The spectators, who at first cheered the police, now turn on them. 100 000 Melbourne citizens crush the police presence, arm themselves & then riot. The Victorian LP Premier Hamer, who was at the cricket, is captured by the crowd.

Melbourne turns into a battle field as the mob riots. Police have no way to control the situation. At dusk, sanity returns. Union leaders & members of the Victorian ALP announce that Victoria is now a member of the Republic.

2 January 1976 The Newcastle army units declares for the Republic & joins the rebels.

The Wollongong army units copies the same actions as in Newcastle.

Lewis, upon hearing the events in Melbourne, Newcastle & Wollongong, changes sides & declares NSW for the Republic.

3-4 January 1976 All becomes quiet throughout Australia.

5 January 1976 Whitlam, at the head of an army column, heads off down the Hume Highway from Sydney to Canberra.

Kerr & Fraser (along with their families) board a RAAF VIP jet to Perth.

At 5pm on a brilliant summer’s afternoon in Canberra, Whitlam enters the Parliamentary Building to return to work as Australia’s PM.

6 January 1976 Kerr & Fraser leave Perth for London. Neither ever return.

10 January 1976 Whitlam calls into session the Parliament. Many LP/CP MPs take their seats in the Interim Republican Parliament.

11 January 1976 A Constitutional Convention is called for 1-21 February 1976 to write a Republican Constitution. Although Tasmania & Western Australia have not declared for the Republic, they agree to send delegates.

12 January 1976 Parliament passes the Memorial Act. It has:

Two public holidays: December 6 becomes Martyr's Day & December 14 becomes Independence Day.

Two honour awards: the Hayden Medal for Services to Australia & the Cairns Medal for Peace. Both become the highest honour that any Australian could be awarded.

1 February 1976 Republican Constitutional Convention starts.

21 February 1976 A Republican Constitution is ratified by all the states & territories. Tasmania & Western Australia join the Federal Republic of Australia.

1 April 1976 The first Republican Elections are held. Whitlam narrowly defeats Peacock to form a government. Mark Oliphant is appointed President.

A new party, the Democrats, wins its first seats in the Senate. Its leader is Don Chipp.
 
Wendell said:
So, it is safe to say that the hypothetical Australioan Republic uses a Parliamentary system?


Yes. In many respects the structure of the Republician govt is more or less the same as perviously. However, the Parliament would appoint the President for a fixed amount of time. The President, unlike the Washington system, is merely Head of State & would have very limited powers. The Head of Government would be the PM & most governmental power would reside in Cabinet with the PM first among equals.
 
DMA said:
Yes. In many respects the structure of the Republician govt is more or less the same as perviously. However, the Parliament would appoint the President for a fixed amount of time. The President, unlike the Washington system, is merely Head of State & would have very limited powers. The Head of Government would be the PM & most governmental power would reside in Cabinet with the PM first among equals.
Would you increase the power of the Senate?
 
Wendell said:
Would you increase the power of the Senate?


Well considering the power of the Senate caused the civil war (in other words the blocking of Supply) in the first place, I'd dare say it'd lose some power, ensuring that the House of Representatives was the superior House.
 
DMA said:
Well considering the power of the Senate caused the civil war (in other words the blocking of Supply) in the first place, I'd dare say it'd lose some power, ensuring that the House of Representatives was the superior House.
Good point.
 
Excellent stuff, DMA. I admit Australian politics and history is a blind spot for me, but I just wanted to throw out a few thoughts.

First, would the CIA, even in a minor sense, effect the politics of a fairly closely allied nation which fell in the political "backyard" of an even stronger ally? I can imagine her majesty's government would be with out some knowledge of the information leaked or the inquiries made. To my mind, it would require wink-and-nod support from London to leak that info, which is plausible, considering the tight cooperation between the US and UK since WWII.

Second, let us say that the British did get involved (perhaps Fraser or Kerr requested military aid from London; what would be the protocol on that?). I imagine that London would have legitimate reason to settle the conflict, in light of Cold War tensions, and I also think that they might ask for US assistance (transport, recon over-flights, etc.), as they would be dealing with a lot of the same difficulties of distance that would plague British forces in the Falklands war. A few sweeps of an SR-71 would give a great overview of pro-Whitlam forces and along with British assistance, would result in a decisive Fraser victory. That, or you see a large resistance movement under what is perceived to be British occupation. Then one has to wonder when the Soviets will get involved...

The mind boggles. :rolleyes:
 
david3565 said:
First, would the CIA, even in a minor sense, effect the politics of a fairly closely allied nation which fell in the political "backyard" of an even stronger ally? I can imagine her majesty's government would be with out some knowledge of the information leaked or the inquiries made. To my mind, it would require wink-and-nod support from London to leak that info, which is plausible, considering the tight cooperation between the US and UK since WWII.


The business about CIA involvement with Australian politics in 1975 is one of those legends which has arisen in Australian lore. Certainly something happened involving the CIA. That's a fact. We know, for example, that the CIA did contact the Australian Secret Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) about what the Whitlam Govt was up to & whether Australian-American relations were in question. We also know that the CIA was deeply involved with at least the extremely important US base at Pine Gap. We also know that some 250 CIA personnel was in Australia at the time. And we also know that Doug Anthony shared a house with at least one CIA official in Canberra. And finally, we also know that the Opposition Parties (the Liberal Party & Country Party) got some fantastic & extremely damaging intel on the Labor Party just before the 1975 Budget was announced & sent to the Senate for its vote. All a coincidence? Could be. But in truth no one actually knows what the CIA got up to in 1975 other than the CIA. And they're not telling.


david3565 said:
Second, let us say that the British did get involved (perhaps Fraser or Kerr requested military aid from London; what would be the protocol on that?). I imagine that London would have legitimate reason to settle the conflict, in light of Cold War tensions, and I also think that they might ask for US assistance (transport, recon over-flights, etc.), as they would be dealing with a lot of the same difficulties of distance that would plague British forces in the Falklands war. A few sweeps of an SR-71 would give a great overview of pro-Whitlam forces and along with British assistance, would result in a decisive Fraser victory. That, or you see a large resistance movement under what is perceived to be British occupation. Then one has to wonder when the Soviets will get involved...


Well the British can't really get involved as there's this thing called the Statute of Westminister. It forbids the British Parliament getting involved in the domestic affairs of any other nation. That includes countries like Australia. Legally, it's a whole grey area for countries like ours who have a British Governor-General. Anyway, as happen in the OTL, the British said whatever happens in Australia it is up to us to sought out the mess.

The other thing is, if the UK did get involved, I'm not overly sure who they'd support. From a Constitutional angle, Whitlam was/is well within his rights to refuse to surrender as, within the Westminister system, it's Parliament & the PM who is supreme, & not the Crown. Sections 62, 63, & 64 of the Australian Constitution more or less spell this out. So the British, if they did get involved, should do so on Whitlam's side & not the reverse. Thus, both Kerr & Fraser should have been arrested for treason & sedition under the Australian Crimes Act 1914.
 
Fantastic work, DMA; if there ever was going to be a civil war chronicler, you'd get my vote. An amazingly realistic portrayal.

Although I'm noticing a slight tendency towards killing off Joh; is it really that inevitable that he'd be the first to cark it?

As for other civil war possibilities, the one that I think is personally most likely would be the 1932 Lang dismissal. You've already got the New Guard pledging to remove Lang, and relations with the Federal Government and Britain were taut; history was on a knifeedge.

As it happens, Lang was dismissed on May 13, 1932 by the Governor of New South Wales, Sir Philip Game. Consider: what if Lang hadn't left peacefully?

He had a massive bloc of working class support, who more than supporting his party (which he had already acrimonously split with, to a large degree) supported him with almost Messianic zeal. Let's say Lang, refusing to be dismissed, sacks Game and declares his intention to stay in power. This would be most blatantly illegal, and the New Guard would have been in an uproar. According to Gerald Stone's excellent work, 1932, Lang had proposed a Labor militia to counter the New Guard, in the case of civil strife. It's quite possible the New Guard would have tried to kidnap Lang (as indeed they had once before), and Lang's personal militia would have stopped them. Blood would have run outside Parliament House.

In the rest of Australia, Lang would have been universally condemned. It's quite possible to imagine Lyons, old rat that he was, sending in the army to overthrow Lang. With this, a war between New South Wales and the rest of Australia would have been very, very easy, and indeed very nearly happened. In the case of an invasion, Lang could have called for secession, and so you get the Republic of New South Wales fighting a war on nearly all fronts against an encroaching Commonwealth.

And, on the international front, Lang's republic would almost certainly have defaulted on its credit loans, as he repeatedly did. In the past, Australia had bailed out the debt of New South Wales when it refused to pay; now that this would no longer be forthcoming, British bankers could have lost millions. Is it so hard to imagine retailiatory action from the Royal Navy against Lang because of this?

How close we came.
 
BlackMage said:
Fantastic work, DMA; if there ever was going to be a civil war chronicler, you'd get my vote. An amazingly realistic portrayal.


Hi BlackMage & welcome to AH.Com (I noticed that it's your first post). I'm glad you liked the articles. :)


BlackMage said:
Although I'm noticing a slight tendency towards killing off Joh; is it really that inevitable that he'd be the first to cark it?


Well that's kind of deliberate as a plot device. Besides, outside of Gough, in 1975, I don't know who was hated more by a large number of Ausralians. Consider Jo to be the Anti-Gough ;)


BlackMage said:
As for other civil war possibilities, the one that I think is personally most likely would be the 1932 Lang dismissal. You've already got the New Guard pledging to remove Lang, and relations with the Federal Government and Britain were taut; history was on a knifeedge.

As it happens, Lang was dismissed on May 13, 1932 by the Governor of New South Wales, Sir Philip Game. Consider: what if Lang hadn't left peacefully?


Yes, the Lang Dismissal did cause a lot of anger. But two things. First off it's a different era. Other than Western Australia, there's no talk of any of the other states leaving the Commonwealth. Indeed, it could be argued that NSW is the backbone of the Commonwealth. So even if fighting broke out in NSW, it would only be local & over the issue of the Lang Dismissal.

The second thing is the way the Lang Dismissal took place. Unlike with Kerr, the NSW Governor Game warned Lang that if he continued his policy of threatening to default the loan payments, that he would be forced to sack him. Completely different story on how Kerr dealt with Whitlam. Also, the NSW Constitution (actually I think it's the Letters Patent) permits the Govenor to fire a Premier, whilst the same can't be said for the Australian Constitution.


BlackMage said:
He had a massive bloc of working class support, who more than supporting his party (which he had already acrimonously split with, to a large degree) supported him with almost Messianic zeal. Let's say Lang, refusing to be dismissed, sacks Game and declares his intention to stay in power. This would be most blatantly illegal, and the New Guard would have been in an uproar. According to Gerald Stone's excellent work, 1932, Lang had proposed a Labor militia to counter the New Guard, in the case of civil strife. It's quite possible the New Guard would have tried to kidnap Lang (as indeed they had once before), and Lang's personal militia would have stopped them. Blood would have run outside Parliament House.

In the rest of Australia, Lang would have been universally condemned. It's quite possible to imagine Lyons, old rat that he was, sending in the army to overthrow Lang. With this, a war between New South Wales and the rest of Australia would have been very, very easy, and indeed very nearly happened. In the case of an invasion, Lang could have called for secession, and so you get the Republic of New South Wales fighting a war on nearly all fronts against an encroaching Commonwealth.


Well again, if fighting did explode in NSW (& I'll accept that there is the possibility that this could happen), that it would nevertheless be solely kept within NSW. Now Lang could have declared a republic of NSW, but Governor Game would have naturally rejected this as would the new Premier. Furthermore, Lang no longer had the authority to order the police & so forth out to support his republic. So everything would have been against him at the state level before he had to worry about Commonwealth forces. So I don't think he coud have gotten far. In other words, he would have to defeat his own state's forces first, before any NSW vs Australia action took place. And that's besides the fact that most people in NSW wouldn't have supported any such actions by Lang. Plus Federal Labor (which ironically formed the Federal govt at the time) didn't support him either. So in any such AH, you've got to ensure Lang has overwhelming public support (somehow) as well as support from Federal Labor (who hated Lang in the typical Labor faction way).


BlackMage said:
And, on the international front, Lang's republic would almost certainly have defaulted on its credit loans, as he repeatedly did. In the past, Australia had bailed out the debt of New South Wales when it refused to pay; now that this would no longer be forthcoming, British bankers could have lost millions. Is it so hard to imagine retailiatory action from the Royal Navy against Lang because of this?

How close we came.


Well that's the thing isn't it. No one would have loaned NSW money during a very desperate period of history - being the Depression. So any Lang republic would have gone bankrupt in no short time & fallen to pieces. It may not even need the arrival of the RN to change things...
 
DMA said:
Hi BlackMage & welcome to AH.Com (I noticed that it's your first post). I'm glad you liked the articles. :)

Thank you very much for your welcome, DMA. This looks like a great place, and I look forward to spending more time here.





Well that's kind of deliberate as a plot device. Besides, outside of Gough, in 1975, I don't know who was hated more by a large number of Ausralians. Consider Jo to be the Anti-Gough ;)

:D :D That's a fantastic analogy. Congrats.





Yes, the Lang Dismissal did cause a lot of anger. But two things. First off it's a different era. Other than Western Australia, there's no talk of any of the other states leaving the Commonwealth. Indeed, it could be argued that NSW is the backbone of the Commonwealth. So even if fighting broke out in NSW, it would only be local & over the issue of the Lang Dismissal.

Actually, at the time seccessionist sentiment was also going on in Tasmania and South Australia. A dominion league, just like that in Western Australia, was formed in Tasmania in 1931 calling for secession, according to The Australian Century by Robert Manne. The Federation was a lot less stable then, remember, and any sort of prolonged crisis with a 'rogue' Premier could have made it a lot less so.

The second thing is the way the Lang Dismissal took place. Unlike with Kerr, the NSW Governor Game warned Lang that if he continued his policy of threatening to default the loan payments, that he would be forced to sack him. Completely different story on how Kerr dealt with Whitlam. Also, the NSW Constitution (actually I think it's the Letters Patent) permits the Govenor to fire a Premier, whilst the same can't be said for the Australian Constitution.

Really? Wow. I didn't know that. But still, remember that Lang wasn't exactly the most cordial of individuals, and the fact that he'd already broken the law (by circulating the memo about payments into the treasury) shows a slight disrespect for...well, anything really. But thanks for telling me about the law, because it puts a whole different spin on the issue.





Well again, if fighting did explode in NSW (& I'll accept that there is the possibility that this could happen), that it would nevertheless be solely kept within NSW. Now Lang could have declared a republic of NSW, but Governor Game would have naturally rejected this as would the new Premier. Furthermore, Lang no longer had the authority to order the police & so forth out to support his republic. So everything would have been against him at the state level before he had to worry about Commonwealth forces. So I don't think he coud have gotten far. In other words, he would have to defeat his own state's forces first, before any NSW vs Australia action took place. And that's besides the fact that most people in NSW wouldn't have supported any such actions by Lang. Plus Federal Labor (which ironically formed the Federal govt at the time) didn't support him either. So in any such AH, you've got to ensure Lang has overwhelming public support (somehow) as well as support from Federal Labor (who hated Lang in the typical Labor faction way).

Yes, very good points, and one which tear my arguments to shreds, it must be admitted. But an intriguing Civil War of 1932 still arises, based on the possibility that Lang doesn't go down so quietly; he still had a huge block of public support, who regardless of the law could have tried to rebel against any sort of new Premier. So it becomes more a guerilla action and rioting than a war between any two bodies, with Lang supporters and the New Guard clashing about support for Bertram Stevens, the new Premier. It could quickly have escalated into something very, very ugly.

Also, Labor wasn't in Federal Government at the time; the new UAP was, led by Lyons, who was like a koala-fied version of Billy Hughes.





Well that's the thing isn't it. No one would have loaned NSW money during a very desperate period of history - being the Depression. So any Lang republic would have gone bankrupt in no short time & fallen to pieces. It may not even need the arrival of the RN to change things...

A very well reasoned analysis, and one I must applaud you for. But it does bring up the whole possibility of a Lang-backed insurgency. He always did love the underdog...

Once again, thank you for your quick and cordial reply.
 
BlackMage said:
Thank you very much for your welcome, DMA. This looks like a great place, and I look forward to spending more time here.


Not a problem. We're a friendly bunch here usually ;) By all means look around. The Chat Forum is we're we sually just chill out. Plenty of characters too


BlackMage said:
:D :D That's a fantastic analogy. Congrats.


I was hoping you liked it :D


BlackMage said:
Actually, at the time seccessionist sentiment was also going on in Tasmania and South Australia. A dominion league, just like that in Western Australia, was formed in Tasmania in 1931 calling for secession, according to The Australian Century by Robert Manne. The Federation was a lot less stable then, remember, and any sort of prolonged crisis with a 'rogue' Premier could have made it a lot less so.


Now to be honest I didn't know there was popular thoughts about seccession in other states other than WA. Coming from a source like Robert Manne, though, ensures it is trustworthy, so I'll accept it to say the least. It surprised me though I have to admit. Of course there has been the occasional thought about seccession in NSW, but I've always put that down to the usual complaints leading up to the yearly Premier's meeting with the PM...



BlackMage said:
Really? Wow. I didn't know that. But still, remember that Lang wasn't exactly the most cordial of individuals, and the fact that he'd already broken the law (by circulating the memo about payments into the treasury) shows a slight disrespect for...well, anything really. But thanks for telling me about the law, because it puts a whole different spin on the issue.


Yes the two Dismissals are very different. Lang was warned by Game a couple of times that Lang's policies were unconstitutional & it placed Game in an impossible position. Furthermore Game actually liked Lang & liked that Lang tried to look after the poor & downtrodden during the Depression. Kerr, however, hated Whitlam & needless to say didn't give any warnings, hints, nothing, that he was ready to sack him when the chance presented itself.

Then there's the constitutional angle of the two Dismissals. In Lang's case (I just looked it up) the Governor's Letters Patent (1892) permitted, in Clause VI, the refusal of ministerial advice, which could also consider the dissmissal of Ministers still holding confidence of the House. But, the Clause required a warning to be issued first to the Minister in question.

In the Australian constitution is doesn't say anywhere that a G-G can do any of this. Instead, Sections 62 & 63state that the G-G has the Federal Executive Council (in other words Cabinet) which advises in the tradition of Ministerial Responsibility. Now Gough was advising Kerr for a half-Senate election. Needless to say, that didn't happen. So Kerr acted in breach of the Constitution.



BlackMage said:
Yes, very good points, and one which tear my arguments to shreds, it must be admitted. But an intriguing Civil War of 1932 still arises, based on the possibility that Lang doesn't go down so quietly; he still had a huge block of public support, who regardless of the law could have tried to rebel against any sort of new Premier. So it becomes more a guerilla action and rioting than a war between any two bodies, with Lang supporters and the New Guard clashing about support for Bertram Stevens, the new Premier. It could quickly have escalated into something very, very ugly.


Well it's not as if fighting couldn't have gotten really ugly. A lot would depend upon the Unions in NSW. Why not write a AH about it & see how/where you go about it. Now if there are massive riots taking place in Sydney, between Union member on one side & the police/New Guard on the other, maybe the army is eventually called in. Now the regular army wasn't very big in the 1930s, but the milita was. So you could have the Regular Army marching from Victoria Barracks to put down the Union rioters, whilst a Western Suburbs Militia battalion mobilises themselves & attacks the Regulars. Things then spiral out of control from there - just a thought.


BlackMage said:
Also, Labor wasn't in Federal Government at the time; the new UAP was, led by Lyons, who was like a koala-fied version of Billy Hughes.


Wasn't the Federal Govt at the time a Scullin ALP govt? :confused: I only ask because there was a bitch fight going on between Lang & Scullin over treasury funds. Oh hang on - the Scullin govt fell to pieces in late 1931 or something like that didn't it?


BlackMage said:
A very well reasoned analysis, and one I must applaud you for. But it does bring up the whole possibility of a Lang-backed insurgency. He always did love the underdog...


Yeah, those Labor Party factions eh? :D


BlackMage said:
Once again, thank you for your quick and cordial reply.


Oh we always try to be friendly here (mostly). Thanks for contributing :)
 
lol

I heard on Radio 4 (which is practically the word of God) that the closest Australia came to a civil war situation was in the eighteen-seventies; when roving bands of non-union sheep shearers had a stand off with the powers that be over refusal to unionise. You have no idea how FUCKING HILARIOUS this is.
 
I heard on Radio 4 (which is practically the word of God) that the closest Australia came to a civil war situation was in the eighteen-seventies; when roving bands of non-union sheep shearers had a stand off with the powers that be over refusal to unionise. You have no idea how FUCKING HILARIOUS this is.

That whole thing is an interesting story in itself.
 
With any Australian civil war, NZ will send peace keepers and personal across the ditch to help restore order
 
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