The Apostolic Church

[Strategos' Risk]

Challenge: create a third mainline church to the “holy apostolic catholic church.”

I think a strong way would be to have France have more Gallicanism that leads to a dispute with Rome. I have no idea when this would be. In any case, a French monarch in the mold of Henry VIII is excommunicated, rejects the Papacy. And, as precedence would have it, an antipope is stationed in Avignon. The Apostolic Church would be a national church though without the Protestant bits of the Church of England, and is presided over by a Pope (or antipope, though the French wouldn’t call him that) , instead of a patriarch or archbishop of Canterbury.

Did Spain ever “become more Catholic than the pope” or something like that? Spain used to be a really hardcore Catholic nation. I’ve wondered what would have happened if they had a dispute with the papacy.

Yes, I’ve mentioned this before, but I’m hoping someone will reply if I make this short.

 

[Weapon M]

Wasn't there a separate Celtic church early on? What if they survved? I think this has been done here before.....

Celtic, Catholic, and Orthodox.

 

[DMA]

What if the USA established a National Church at Independence? Say it's a mix of Anglican, Presbyterian & Methodist structures etc.

 

[NomadicSky]

There is an apostolic church

I don't know how many there are but there is one in Amory MS
Bethel Apostolic Church people jump around and yell roll around in the floor speaking "toungs"

 

[MerryPrankster]

A more successful Nestorianism or Monophysitism could be the "3rd Church."

The technical name of the Nestorian Church is "The Apostolic Church of the East" or something similar.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

The problem here is that you're running counter to France's whole medieval strategy in dealing with the Church. England, from about the time of John on, fought the Church for control; so that breaking away was finally easy, once the Germans had shown that it could be done. France OTOH tried to take the Church over.

Simplest way would be to have Avignon continue on while other AntiPopes (or would they be the real Popes??) move back to Rome. However, once Luther's 95 Theses are up then there will be a call to present a unified front to the Lutheran heresy or France will lose influence in its German border provinces and maybe more. Or not, a clever king might ally with the Rheinland Princelings, maybe even extend his power.

Interesting, anyboy know more to speculate further?

 

[NapoleonXIV]

I don't know how many there are but there is one in Amory MS
Bethel Apostolic Church people jump around and yell roll around in the floor speaking "toungs"

I think the meaning of 'apostolic' here is different. (altho what NS is describing sounds more like Pentecostalism as I understand it)

Apostolic can mean 'proselytizing' in that all the members see themselves as like the apostles, obligated to spread the faith.(ie, yes, they're supposed to be like the JW but most will at least wait till someone else brings it up). As the Roman Catholics used it, it was historical, meaning that the Bishops could trace themselves back to the Apostles and the Pope back to St Peter (altho they really can't, due to all the Dark Ages gaps and the AntiPope disputes which lasted right up to the Council of Trent, I believe)

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Wasn't there a separate Celtic church early on? What if they survved? I think this has been done here before.....

Celtic, Catholic, and Orthodox.

Boy, a triple post reply. Sorry. I just can't seem to get my thoughts "together".

Can't it it reasonably be argued that the Celtic did survive? Transforming into the 'regular' Catholic but then losing out in the whole Guelph/Ghibbeline thing later on. I'm thinking along the lines of How the Irish Saved Civilization by Tom Cahill

 

[Strategos' Risk]

The Nicene Creed mentions the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church."

More info.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Wait, what if the Anglican Church calls itself the Apostolic Church? What if Henry VIII instead of forming the CoE as a national church, instead intends it to be a schism a la 1054. So their branding would still be derived from the same universal language as the [Roman] Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church (Eastern Orthodoxy). Maybe some might refer to it as the Anglican Apostolic Church or even the Northern Apostolic Church.

Four Marks of the Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now we just need another One Church and a Holy Church.

ahhh dangit Wikipedia has added a lot more information since 2005

Apostolic Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Catholic Apostolic Church (disambiguation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nuraghe]

The problem here is that you're running counter to France's whole medieval strategy in dealing with the Church. England, from about the time of John on, fought the Church for control; so that breaking away was finally easy, once the Germans had shown that it could be done. France OTOH tried to take the Church over.

Simplest way would be to have Avignon continue on while other AntiPopes (or would they be the real Popes??) move back to Rome. However, once Luther's 95 Theses are up then there will be a call to present a unified front to the Lutheran heresy or France will lose influence in its German border provinces and maybe more. Or not, a clever king might ally with the Rheinland Princelings, maybe even extend his power.

Interesting, anyboy know more to speculate further?

very true, furthermore France with the fact of being considered the first daughter of the church was much freer in relating to the papacy (see the 1516 Bologna concordat) furthermore it was the second most important and numerous group in the Catholic hierarchical apparatus (among cardinals voters in particular, as well as being the largest among ecclesiastics of various kinds and papal officials,) so much so that during the Italian wars (in the Vatican there was almost a real dispute similar to the civil war between those who supported France and those who did not, it is the majority of them were Italian) that's why with Louis XIV we see again a struggle for power over the French and non-French clergy (since the French king can block or choose a candidate for the Petrine throne)
with pope Innocent XI (so much so that the pope refused to make new French cardinals for years), therefore I do not see a separation in the true sense of the word as possible but greater autonomy with more decision-making power attached in the Roman curia (which certainly will not be liked by Spain or Austria, so they too will want more influence in decisions in Rome) this shows that the Avignon affair (it was more a clash between Boniface VIII and Philip the Handsome, who then demonstrated to France the wealth and usefulness of having control over the papacy, experiment which ended badly)
was more an exception than the norm, because France, if you look at the list of popes, is the nation with the most popes after Italy (and many Italians have also become so with French support, sometimes even very heavy) but the idea fi this remains that is to have control of the church but working with it.


unlike England where the church and the king fought for control over the appointment of bishops (a kind of minor investiture war) is that the English kings refused to lose (it was enough just to find an agreement, like France also England it was seen in a positive way therefore some english flaws a Rome were voluntarily ignored) moreover the English kings never made their right to choose their candidate in the conclave prevail (at the beginning this task was only for the emperor ( both HRE and Byzantium) but then it was extended to the major kings of Christendom (England never uses it so it falls into disuse and was cancelled) it must also be said that after the Anglican reform the task of supporting the English church was taken over by France and the Habsburg Netherlands (in fact almost all British bishops, except the Irish, were appointed for the most part with French permission )

 

[CalBear]

Folks, please stop reporting this thread.. Yes, it is ancient. That said it is the OP's perogitive to reopen a thread at any time.

Thanks.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Also, everyone else in this thread is no longer on this forum, meaning any quoting of their posts would not lead to negative interactions, simply empty ones.

 

[Polish Eagle]

Wow, this is a long bump.

Anyway, here’s a few more out-there scenarios:

Church of Africa in a no-Islam scenario schisms from both Rome and Constantinople. Headquartered in either Alexandria or one of the cities near old Carthage.

Ancient apostolic see in Roman Spain. St. Paul alludes to preaching in Iberia in his letters—what if one of the Roman settlements in Spain becomes the seat of a Christian community as old as those in the eastern Med?

 

[marcinL]

Wow, this is a long bump.

Anyway, here’s a few more out-there scenarios:

Church of Africa in a no-Islam scenario schisms from both Rome and Constantinople. Headquartered in either Alexandria or one of the cities near old Carthage.

Ancient apostolic see in Roman Spain. St. Paul alludes to preaching in Iberia in his letters—what if one of the Roman settlements in Spain becomes the seat of a Christian community as old as those in the eastern Med?

You have Kopts and Ethiopian churches otl

 

[Polish Eagle]

You have Kopts and Ethiopian churches otl

True—just having monophysites be acknowledged as a third branch would do it.

 

[Metempsychosis]

True—just having monophysites be acknowledged as a third branch would do it.

I mean, isn't it already? But yeah, maybe if Egypt remained Christian, it'd be more obvious...

Hm, the various Churches of the East all have their own divisions outside of the European divide. The Apostolic Church of Armenia and the Tewahedo Orthodox Church of Ethiopia were separate from the Roman-derived Churches to some extent. And of course there's the Assyrian Church of the East.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

True—just having monophysites be acknowledged as a third branch would do it.

The thread’s premise is really focused on alternate branding. So for this suggestion it’s a matter if the Monophysites 1) embrace the apostolic nature of the church for their church branch and 2) use that branding as opposed to “Oriental Orthodox” or “Church of the East” or whatever.