The Anti-Habsburg TL

[benedict XVII]

The best way I can imagine for this to happen is with no Blijde Inkomst, so that - upon the death of John III, Duke of Brabant with no male heirs - the Duchy of Brabant decends into anarchy, with several factions vying for control. The French threaten an invasion in an attempt to encircle Flemish Zeeland. Then we could have a Liege-Brabant mutual defense union thingummy, which eventually becomes political and permanent...? Anyone got any better ideas

Looks good. Historically lots of rivalries between Liège and Brabant to control route towards Cologne. Since Worringen, Brabant controlled Limburg (which is not OTL Limburg province, but actually Eastern part of OTL Liège province), which meant Liège was squeezed. OTOH, Liège grasped the County of Looz, which is OTL Limburg. I can perfectly see one of the more bellicose Prince-Bishops (e.g., de la Marck) seizing the opportunity of unrest in Brabant to extend his domain there. He might gobble up the small County of Namur - a traditional ally of Flanders - along the way, and so fully control the Meuse valley from Dinant to Maestricht.

I can definitely see Liege as having strong ties to the HRE, perhaps even as a member state. Having siezed the French throne in 1332, the Dukes of Burgundy will be driven back by Charles II of Navarre in the early 1360s of TTL. Charles will probably annex a fair chunk of Burgundy to the French nation following his sucesses in 1362. So, yes - some form of limited oligarchic democracy does look quite likely...interesting...

Liège was a member of the HRE, just as Brabant, Namur or Hainault. The border between the HRE and France was the Scheldt until the Ladies' Peace in the 1520's. All the cities had pretty liberal constitutions, and were essentially self-governed. IIRC, for matters that were of interest to the entire principality, there was a council with representatives of the 7 main cities (Liège, Dinant, Huy, Maestricht, Tongeren, etc.) that "assisted " the Prince-Bishop.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Finally got a chance to read this. Very well thought-out TL and clear writing (which is even more important!).

I look forward to seeing more.

Thanks. I always worry that I bounce around the place too much for people to keep up. I don't exactly tackle things in the most linear way, normally getting caught up with odd tangents and side-roads.

1. The Ciompi were wool weavers (the source of Northern Italy's wealth!), so it'd be more artisans or workers.

So an artisan republic? I was thinking that it might happen earlier, with the Ciompi enlisting the help of some kind of neo-Guelph faction who support the now conciliarist church. Something relatively democratic and communalist.

2. Peasant Revolts would be more like the Jaquerie in France or the Peasant Wars in Germany (at Luther's time).

Yes. And I think there will be a fair few of them. In addition to the 'Time of Troubles' in England (perhaps kick-starting a populist English church), we will probably see uprisings or dissent of some form in France, Iberia, various North Italian states, Bohemia-Poland and Denmark.

Trier has precedence, being the oldest bishopric in Germany.

I don't think it's going to be that simple, unfortunately. With three dynasties (Luxembourg, Bavaria, Bohemia) competing for the throne of the Empire, I think it's going to be a case of shifting alliances, secret deals, and patron-client relationships amongst the upper echelons of the nobility. Maybe each of the bishops might support a different candidate...maybe not. We'll see what happens.

Looks good. Historically lots of rivalries between Liège and Brabant to control route towards Cologne. Since Worringen, Brabant controlled Limburg (which is not OTL Limburg province, but actually Eastern part of OTL Liège province), which meant Liège was squeezed. OTOH, Liège grasped the County of Looz, which is OTL Limburg. I can perfectly see one of the more bellicose Prince-Bishops (e.g., de la Marck) seizing the opportunity of unrest in Brabant to extend his domain there. He might gobble up the small County of Namur - a traditional ally of Flanders - along the way, and so fully control the Meuse valley from Dinant to Maestricht.

I think some kind of conglomeration of Liege, Brabant, and Namur seems likely, even if it doesn't happen quite yet.

Liège was a member of the HRE, just as Brabant, Namur or Hainault. The border between the HRE and France was the Scheldt until the Ladies' Peace in the 1520's.

That does make things a fair bit easier.

All the cities had pretty liberal constitutions, and were essentially self-governed. IIRC, for matters that were of interest to the entire principality, there was a council with representatives of the 7 main cities (Liège, Dinant, Huy, Maestricht, Tongeren, etc.) that "assisted " the Prince-Bishop.

Interesting...it's looking like Liege-Brabant-Namur could do quite well for itself in TTL.

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EDIT: Oh, and a quick question - can anyone point me to some maps of Rus' or the Middle East c. 1350-1400?

 

[benedict XVII]

http://perso.infonie.be/liege06/07sept.htm#7/1

You should look at this page and the following for a good overview of the history of Liège at the time, including the rivalries with Brabant. In particular, Adolphe de la Marck (1313-1344) managed to put an end to the intestine struggles in 1331 and curtailed the power of the Duke of Brabant signficantly at the same time. He also defeated Namur. If you push his successes slightly more, you can have the reunion mentioned previously. Note it would make the boundaries of the pincipality, where the bishop exercised temporal power, more or less coincide with the boundaries of the bishopric - where he exercised spiritual power - the latter being much larger than the former OTL. Nice logic to it.

 

[Justin Pickard]

http://perso.infonie.be/liege06/07sept.htm#7/1

You should look at this page and the following for a good overview of the history of Liège at the time, including the rivalries with Brabant. In particular, Adolphe de la Marck (1313-1344) managed to put an end to the intestine struggles in 1331 and curtailed the power of the Duke of Brabant signficantly at the same time. He also defeated Namur. If you push his successes slightly more, you can have the reunion mentioned previously. Note it would make the boundaries of the pincipality, where the bishop exercised temporal power, more or less coincide with the boundaries of the bishopric - where he exercised spiritual power - the latter being much larger than the former OTL. Nice logic to it.

Apart from the fact that that website is in French (which I don't speak ), that all seems brilliant. With the French on their doorstep, Brabant and Namur will be far happier to shelter beneath the Liege umbrella, paving the way for eventual union. Perhaps some sort of communalist alliance? Either way, with de facto control over this additional territory, it'll be relatively plausible for the Archbishop of Liege to gain an electorship to keep numbers odd after the addition of the Grand Burghermaster in Lubeck.

That all seems to make sense. Cool.

 

[SteveW]

Benedict's idea of Liege acquiring Namur is excellent and very, very, very plausible, as Liege did for a long time control the south bank of the Meuse in Namur itself.

@Justin: are you envisioning a Luebeck which gradually unites with surrounding cities and comes to dominate Northern Germany?

 

[Justin Pickard]

@Justin: are you envisioning a Luebeck which gradually unites with surrounding cities and comes to dominate Northern Germany?

Not exactly. What I want is for Lubeck to become the administrative capital of a far more successful and pseudo-corporate Hanseatic League.

 

[Justin Pickard]

And here's the first draft of a map for Europe c. 1400. Will post some annotated detail maps of specific areas in the future.

Hope that gives everyone a better idea as to what is going on.

NB: Russia and Turkey might be a bit dodgy, as source maps are relatively hard to come by. Still need to add in some of the larger states of the HRE.

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
AFAIK Přemysl Otakar II held territories as south as modern Slovenia...

YOu gave him Austria proper, he also held: Carinthia, Styria and Carniola. And was looking at gods know what with city of ?Aquileia????

And shouldn't Salzburg be indpendent? I am not very good at blank maps but it looks only Pasau is free..

 

[Justin Pickard]

Bright day
AFAIK Přemysl Otakar II held territories as south as modern Slovenia...

YOu gave him Austria proper, he also held: Carinthia, Styria and Carniola. And was looking at gods know what with city of ?Aquileia????

And shouldn't Salzburg be indpendent? I am not very good at blank maps but it looks only Pasau is free..

Yes, I do need to fix the Austria thing. Well spotted. I've put all minor statelets of the HRE as light red for the time being. I'll fill in some more for the next version of the map.

 

[benedict XVII]

On Lower Countries:
1. Have you merged Holland, Utrecht and Guelder, or is it because your boundaries weren't fine enough?
2. Is Hainault still in a personal union with Zealand? (I don't know why but I'd hate being Count of Hainault just at this stage...)
3. Cambrai won't last for too long...

Edit: actually, Hainault was already in personal union with Holland (and Zealand) since 1299, under the House of Avesnes. Margueurite of Avesnes would marry Emeperor Louis IV of Bavaria in 1335, bringing Hainault into the house of the Wittelsbachs. Interesting...

 

[Othniel]

Might as well ask;

What about other houses that would have latter go tied in with the Habsburgs?


Like House Luxembourg?

 

[Justin Pickard]

On Lower Countries:
1. Have you merged Holland, Utrecht and Guelder, or is it because your boundaries weren't fine enough?

Another mistake caused by small scale.

3. Cambrai won't last for too long...

Well, it is a bishopric, so it could attract the anti-clerical wrath of King Philip IV of France. Hmm...I might have it annexed it by France in the early 1300s.

Edit: actually, Hainault was already in personal union with Holland (and Zealand) since 1299, under the House of Avesnes. Margueurite of Avesnes would marry Emeperor Louis IV of Bavaria in 1335, bringing Hainault into the house of the Wittelsbachs. Interesting...

This is another sub-POD, caused by the different Holy Roman Emperor. Upon the death of John I, Count of Holland (r. 1296-1299), Holland itself turns communalist, technically an imperial possession, with an artisan/guild-based oligarchy in control. Hainault remains ruled by the House of Avenses. Zeeland initially merges with Flanders, and when Flanders is annexed by the French, serves as a kind of 'Flanders in Exile'. All of these are integrated to a far greater extent with the HRE than they were in OTL.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Might as well ask;

What about other houses that would have latter go tied in with the Habsburgs?

Well, in TTL Wenceslaus II of Bohemia-Poland (b. 1271, r. 1296-1319) marries Marguerite of France (m. 1298-1319) - in OTL a second-choice trophy bride of Edward I of England - since, in TTL Edward I (b. 1239, r. 1272-1307) married Blanche of France (m. 1296-1307), OTL wife of one of those pesky Habsburgs, who in TTL aren't even on the radar.

With me so far? Okay...

From 1299, Wenceslaus II and Marguerite spawn a whole new bunch of Premsylid children, including the future King Otakar III; Tobias - the 1st Margrave of Moravia; a alternate (non-evil) wife for Edward II of England; and wives for *John I of Luxembourg, and Frederick, Duke of a unified Bavaria (see the start of this thread).

So far, so good. We have surviving Premyslid and Wittelsbach dynasties.

Next, the Luxembourgers;

Our Henry VII still marries Margaret of Brabant, giving birth to an alternate *John I of Luxembourg who is a bit more energetic and a lot less blind. He marries Beatrix Premyslid, who gives birth to several kids, including an alternate *Charles IV. Both John and Charles will be Holy Roman Emperor. Charles will presumably marry someone, continuing the Luxembourg line - for the time being...

(I've got an excel file. Yuh. )

Other dynastic malarky worthy of note:

- Legitimate non-salic English line and illegitimate salic English line are going to clash at some point in the C15th in a Plantagenet vs. Stafford style *Wars of the Roses.

- In TTL, France and Navarre are split on the death of Charles IV. Then joined when the Kings of Navarre sieze, with the aid of English help, the throne of France, then split again, when it is emerges that - due to precedent - a woman can inherit the throne of Navarre, but not the throne of France. Say hello to Queen Catherine of Navarre (b. 1381, r. 1410-1441), a 'Great' but not entirely conventional monach (bit of a Maverick).

- Portugal, Castile and Aragon continue to intermarry, without any dynastic unions occuring as they did in OTL. They all remain seperate discrete nations, potentially slowing the Reconquista and prolonging the survival of Granada, who might survive long enough to see support in the shape of the Ottomans. Hmmm...

 

[Keenir]

The Last Pope:

Could a concilliar church really work without a pope? Is this too soon? What do you guys think?

maybe they adopt the idea of a "Hidden Pope" (with or without a chosen intermediary)...so there is simaltaneously a Pope and no Pope.


(yes, shamelessly borrowed from the idea of a "Hidden Imam")



just a thought..

 

[Justin Pickard]

maybe they adopt the idea of a "Hidden Pope" (with or without a chosen intermediary)...so there is simaltaneously a Pope and no Pope.

That's crazy.

But in a good way. Could certainly provide a cornerstone for a bunch of bizarre cargo cults and random fringe religious movements in C15th Europe.

 

[Keenir]

- Emergence of a Scandinavian Anti-Pope [perhaps they go Orthodox?]

if they go Orthodox, would they have a Pope?

(I thought "Pope" was a uniquely west-European (Catholic) development)

 

[Justin Pickard]

if they go Orthodox, would they have a Pope?

(I thought "Pope" was a uniquely west-European (Catholic) development)

It was a case of either a Scandinavian patriarch / anti-pope, OR they go Orthodox.

 

[SteveW]

It was a case of either a Scandinavian patriarch / anti-pope, OR they go Orthodox.

Hmmm....Malmo as the anti-Rome? A good chance too that such a "Catholic" Church would change many of its ideas-maybe a Bible in the vernacular earlier, and maybe priests can marry? A sneaky way by the anti-Pope to claim the old Church is anachronistic.

 

[Othniel]

It was a case of either a Scandinavian patriarch / anti-pope, OR they go Orthodox.

Couldn't the Catholic church just localize around their Bishophics? A republician/oligarical concept of having 12 Cardinals detrimine doctrines... heck the Emporer could confirm them, and they, in turn, would comfirm the next Emporer....

 

[Max Sinister]

Have mercy with Justin, don't demand him to draw all the borders of the, how many, 300+ states? in the HRE

Scandinavians orthodox? Weren't they already Catholic? I don't know any case where a whole people converted from Catholicism to the Orthodox church (although there were some who did something like the opposite... see Greek-Catholic church)