The Anti-Habsburg TL

[Justin Pickard]

Right. Little bit of brainstorming before we move on.

Imagine OTL 1400. Now take the bastard feudalism which characterised the social structure of the era, and throw in some (optical telegraph) technology to enable relatively cheap long-distance communication. Ownership of the means of communication is concentrated in the hands of a relatively small number of noble families.

Add some canals, an increasingly decentralised and open-minded church, and vast trading networks in both the Baltic and Mediterranian seas filling the coffers of local banking dynasties.

Any ideas for longer-term socioeconomic/political trends?

 

[Max Sinister]

It lives!!!

 

[Justin Pickard]

It lives!!!

Only semi. I'm just trying to work out some ideas for 'Life in 1400', before I move on to working out another 150/200 years of the timeline.

All contributions at this stage are more than welcome.

 

[TheGreatCocanut]

Right. Little bit of brainstorming before we move on.

Imagine OTL 1400. Now take the bastard feudalism which characterised the social structure of the era, and throw in some (optical telegraph) technology to enable relatively cheap long-distance communication. Ownership of the means of communication is concentrated in the hands of a relatively small number of noble families.

Add some canals, an increasingly decentralised and open-minded church, and vast trading networks in both the Baltic and Mediterranian seas filling the coffers of local banking dynasties.

Any ideas for longer-term socioeconomic/political trends?

a more open minded church means that the reformers are less likely, but if they do happen, then they'd be stronger, because of less resistance, and all that trade helps spread it better, even more so if the families that run those strange optical telegraphs convert. the surviving templars are a wild card, catholic fanatics with a strong military AND all that money, might be the hapsburgs of this timeline. for an idea, maybe the tamplars finance columbus to "crusade from the other side" or something. also, i need to know about the mongols.

 

[Justin Pickard]

European Powers c. 1400

Although by no means exhaustive, I thought I'd give it a shot (more details to follow):

(1) CROWN OF ENGLAND

- England
- Aquitaine
- Ulster

(2) IRISH KINGDOMS

- Desmond
- Thomand
- Connaught
- Brefni
- Aileach

(3) KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND

(4) KINGDOM OF GWYNEDD

(5) KINGDOM OF FRANCE

(6) KINGDOM OF NAVARRE

(7) CROWN OF ARAGON

- Kingdom of Aragon
- Principality of Catalonia
- Kingdom of Valencia
- Kingdom of Murcia
- Kingdom of Majorca
- Kingdom of Sardinia

(8) CROWN OF CASTILE

- Kingdom of Castile
- Kingdom of Leon
- Principality of Asturias

(9) KINGDOM OF PORTUGAL

(10) KINGDOM OF GRANADA

(11) KINGDOM OF SWEDEN

(12) KINGDOM OF NORWAY

(13) HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE

- Kingdom of Bohemia-Poland (electorship)
- Kingdom of Bavaria-Tyrol (electorship)
- Archbishopric of Koln (eclessiastical electorship)
- Archbishopric of Mainz (eclessiastical electorship)
- Archbishopric of Trier (eclessiastical electorship)
- Archbishopric of Liege (eclessiastical electorship)
- Archbishopric of Salzburg (electorship)
- Free City of Lubeck (Hanseatic electorship)
- Republic of Copenhagen (Hanseatic electorship)

- Kingdom of Denmark
- Teutonic Order
- Republic of Estonia (strong Hanseatic links)
- Duchy of Savoy
- Margravate of Montferrat
- Republic of Sienna
- The Florentine Republic
- Margravate of Mantua
- Duchy of Modena
- Republic of Milan
- Republic of Lucca
- Republic of Bologna
- Republic of Verona
- Most Serene Republic of Rome (formally inc. Republic of Scilly)
- Most Serene Republic of Genoa
- Republic of Pisa
- Duchy of Luxembourg
- Duchy of Pomerania
- Margravate of Brandenburg
- Duchy of Nassau
- Duchy of Saxony (Saxe-Lauenburg)
- Duchy of Saxe-Anhalt
- Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneberg
- Duchy of Rugen
- Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg
- Margravate of Thuringa-Meissen
- Duchy of Baden-Württemberg
- Landgravate of Hesse
- Margravate of Austria
- Duchy of Carinthia
- Duchy of Carniola

(14) MOST SERENE REPUBLIC OF VENICE

(15) REPUBLIC OF PSKOV (strong Novgorodian and Hanseatic links)

(16) REPUBLIC OF NOVGOROD

(17) KINGDOM OF KARELIA (puppet of Novogorod)

(18) GRAND DUCHY OF MOSCOW

(19) GRAND DUCHY OF LITHUANIA

(20) CROWN OF ANJOU (all fiefs afforded relative autonomy, but held together by dynastic links)

- County of Provence
- Kingdom of Naples
- Kingdom of Hungary
- Principality of Transylvania
- Kingdom of Croatia
- Kingdom of Bosnia

(21) OTTOMAN EMPIRE

- Ottoman Empire
- Patriarch of Constantinople
- Kingdom of Serbia
- Desposate of Epirus
- Principality of Achaea
- Principality of Wallachia
- Principality of Moldavia
- Beylik of the Crimea
- Beylik of Karaman
- Beylik of Armenia
- Beylik of Trezibond
- Beylik of Samtshke
- Beylik of Imeriti
- Beylik of Georgia

-----

See the tiny map of Europe:

 

[Nicole]

Kingdom of Karelia? Sounds very interesting, how did that happen? If Eprius has survived, shouldn't the Emprie of Trebizond?

 

[Justin Pickard]

Kingdom of Karelia? Sounds very interesting, how did that happen?

Novgorod, fuelled by Hanseatic weath, hired mercenaries to fight off the Swedish threat in their various border disputes. It gained control of various chunks of border territory, but - to avoid the future wrath of Sweden - set it up as an independent and autonomous (albeit de facto puppet) state, with a vaguely Scandinavian monarch.

 

[G.Bone]

Waitaminute - when did the Ottomans come about? Nary saw a word of them in the installments -

 

[Justin Pickard]

Waitaminute - when did the Ottomans come about? Nary saw a word of them in the installments -

I know. Me and the Ottomans don't get on. I find them inpenetrable. But I would like an external threat to give those Christian Europeans the willies...

Any help in creating a stronger OE would be more than welcome.

*puppy dog eyes*

I'm going to work on the timeline up to 1400 a bit more over the next couple of weeks, and then post it to the Timeline forum.

 

[Max Sinister]

Right. Little bit of brainstorming before we move on.

Imagine OTL 1400. Now take the bastard feudalism which characterised the social structure of the era, and throw in some (optical telegraph) technology to enable relatively cheap long-distance communication. Ownership of the means of communication is concentrated in the hands of a relatively small number of noble families.

Add some canals, an increasingly decentralised and open-minded church, and vast trading networks in both the Baltic and Mediterranian seas filling the coffers of local banking dynasties.

Any ideas for longer-term socioeconomic/political trends?

Science could progress faster. That is, if the scientists decide to share their knowledge and cooperate more. It might take several decades until someone thinks that this would be a good idea.
Economy and esp. trade would also profit - which means that they'd grow at first, but could face a crisis later.

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
- Margravate of Austria
- Duchy of Carinthia
- Duchy of Carniola
Did when became independand of B-P?

And as you asked nicely I have some cultural things from OTL that need your voice:

13/14th century- Alexandreis- Retelling, about a king who goes on foreign conquest but perishes (Ottocar II. analogy), anti-german sentiment, call for strong czech king, in czech

1314- first chronicle written in czech- also known as Dalimil's (though author is unknown), history of Czech Lands, strong anti-foreigner sentiment in OTL

After that divergences become simply too great

Oh and I almost forgot- concerining Lusatia- it had history of conflict OTL btetween Czechia, POland, Saxony and Brandenburg. In 1136-1254 it was in Czech hands, 1254-1319 a Brandenburger posession, 1319-1635 part of Czech kingdom, 1635- part of Saxony.

 

[SteveW]

Good to see this thread back.

Ok, here's a few cultural/economic ideas:

* Occitan/Gascon is going to be much stronger in this TL. I would guess that under English control, standard French (langue d'oil) will not take over, but nor will English. And as I guess printing will be coming sooner rather than later, its survival will be assured. Walloon will survive, and the future of Gaelic and Welsh depends on what you do next.

*There won't be a Chaucer in this TL, he was born half way through the century. What I personally would love to see would be England instead to get a number of excellent poets, on the lines of the French "Pleiade" a century or two later.

*Banking as we know it began in the 14th century- I reckon with the way your TL has gone, banking is going to emerge more strongly in Luebeck or Copenhagen. Thus, it might not even end up being called "banking".

*With the Black Death much less problematic, Genoa might (as I think was discussed a while ago) be more bolshy in the Crimea-thus maybe Italian language and culture might take hold on the southern coast.

On a political note- with the increase in technological levels, and the fact that the Black Death's reduction has led to excess population in some states, it can surely only be a matter of time before somebody makes a break to try and take some of North Africa. Cue a bit of fancy footwork towards the end of the century, cue a bit of papal skulduggery, and some of the naval powers of Europe could very probably be on a Tenth Crusade. This is where it gets weird- that would potentially lead to small colonies in Morocco for England, Norway, Liege, and Portugal.

Also, are you going to crush Holstein?

 

[Justin Pickard]

- Margravate of Austria
- Duchy of Carinthia
- Duchy of Carniola
Did when became independand of B-P?

I think that they would be afforded relative autonomy from B-P, having been given to loyal B-P nobles / minor members of the house of Premyslid.

And as you asked nicely I have some cultural things from OTL that need your voice:

Can you give me any online sources for this kind of stuff?

Oh and I almost forgot- concerining Lusatia- it had history of conflict OTL btetween Czechia, POland, Saxony and Brandenburg. In 1136-1254 it was in Czech hands, 1254-1319 a Brandenburger posession, 1319-1635 part of Czech kingdom, 1635- part of Saxony.

So, in TTL it would most likely be Czech, but with a vaguely more Germano-Baltic culture. Cool.

* Occitan/Gascon is going to be much stronger in this TL. I would guess that under English control, standard French (langue d'oil) will not take over, but nor will English.

Yes, this is a bit of a tricky one. In the longer term, I think that the English lands in France will probably try to declare their own independence from both English and French control. Not quite sure how that is going to work...

And as I guess printing will be coming sooner rather than later, its survival will be assured.

I think I'm going to have a *Laurens Janszoon Coster analogue invent the printing press in Holland or Liege.

Walloon will survive, and the future of Gaelic and Welsh depends on what you do next.

Waloon will survive, yes, and probably thrive / be formalized into a more cohesive language. We might even see it being spoken in Friesland and Liege.

Gwynedd [North Wales] is going to become a prototype 'pirate utopia' in the Hakim Bey tradition; a mercantile refuge for highwaymen and outlaws.

Scottish and Irish Gaelic will probably do okay for themselves, with a powerful Scottish nation forging strong ties with Norway, whilst the five Irish kingdoms ally to avoid English domination.

*There won't be a Chaucer in this TL, he was born half way through the century. What I personally would love to see would be England instead to get a number of excellent poets, on the lines of the French "Pleiade" a century or two later.

I think that in TTL, the Canterbury tales will probably still exist, but not in the same form. Without the Chaucer that we all know and love, I reckon that they will take the form of something a bit more like the tales of the Arabian Nights or the fairy tale canon of medieval Germany. Something that is added to by subsequent writers and poets, and codified in various forms.

*Banking as we know it began in the 14th century- I reckon with the way your TL has gone, banking is going to emerge more strongly in Luebeck or Copenhagen. Thus, it might not even end up being called "banking".

Banking is going to emerge roughly simultaneously in both the Baltic and North Italy in the early C14th. However, with the increasing influence of the optical telegraph and dynastic 'corporations', and the greater mobility afforded by stronger trade links and a spreading canal network, I think that banking will develop far faster and further. Why was "banking" called "banking" btw?

*With the Black Death much less problematic, Genoa might (as I think was discussed a while ago) be more bolshy in the Crimea-thus maybe Italian language and culture might take hold on the southern coast.

I think that we'll eventually see the emergence of a vaguely Italian-esque Crimean state under the Ottoman thumb.

On a political note- with the increase in technological levels, and the fact that the Black Death's reduction has led to excess population in some states, it can surely only be a matter of time before somebody makes a break to try and take some of North Africa. Cue a bit of fancy footwork towards the end of the century, cue a bit of papal skulduggery, and some of the naval powers of Europe could very probably be on a Tenth Crusade. This is where it gets weird- that would potentially lead to small colonies in Morocco for England, Norway, Liege, and Portugal.

Interesting...

Also, are you going to crush Holstein?

In 1400, the Dukes of Holstein have control of the Kingdom of Denmark. I don't see this lasting long, as they are far from popular.

 

[SteveW]

Banking is going to emerge roughly simultaneously in both the Baltic and North Italy in the early C14th. However, with the increasing influence of the optical telegraph and dynastic 'corporations', and the greater mobility afforded by stronger trade links and a spreading canal network, I think that banking will develop far faster and further. Why was "banking" called "banking" btw?
.

Yeah, it comes from the Italian "banco", meaning a bench, originally Germanic. In German, die Bank means bench and bank, French has "le banc" for bench and "la banque" for a bank. In Italy, bankers got their name because they sat in the marketplace at a bench. "Bankrupt" stems from the physical breaking of a bench when a banker went under.

Welsh pirates? Italian Crimea? Kingdom of Karelia? Brilliant stuff, look forward to it.

 

[Gladi]

I think that they would be afforded relative autonomy from B-P, having been given to loyal B-P nobles / minor members of the house of Premyslid.
Can you give me any online sources for this kind of stuff?

well here, but it is kinda hard to get very detailed english sources...

And to the first thing, I find it doubtful, only hundred and fifty years ago there were appanage princedoms in Moravia and it only served to confuse things with several of the princes claiming throne. And nobles revolted have revolted aganist Wenceslaus I father of Ottocar II (ironicaly they asked teenage Ottocar to be figurehead).

 

[Justin Pickard]

Monarchs of 1400

- King *Henry IV of England (b. 1353)
House of Plantagenet
Grandson of OTL Edward II

- King *James I of Scotland (b. 1352)
House of Bruce
Grandon of OTL Robert the Bruce

- King Owain I of Gwynedd (b. 1359)
House of Glendower

- King *Charles VI of France (b. 1358)
Also King *Charles I of Navarre
House of Evreux
Grandson of Jean II of Navarre and Philip d'Evreux

- King John I of Aragon (b. 1350)
House of Barcelona

- King *Ferdinand V of Castile (b. 1335)
House of Burgundy
Eldest surviving son of Alfonso XI and Eleanor of Guzman

- King *Peter II of Portugal (b. 1370)
House of Burgundy
Eldest surviving son of Ferdinand I and Leonor Telles de Menezes

- Muhammad VII of Granada
House of Nasrid

- King *Magnus III of Sweden (b. 1352)
House of Bjällbo
Great great grandson of Magnus I of Sweden

- King *Harald V of Norway (b. 1361)
House of Fairhair
Great grandson of Hakon V Magnusson

- King *Wilhelm II of Germany (b. 1342)
Also King *Wilhelm I of Bavaria-Tyrol
House of Wittelsbach
Son of Frederick I of Upper Bavaria (died in OTL in jousting accident) and Margarete Meinhardiner (OTL Margarete Mautleich)

- Queen *Sophia of Bohemia-Poland (b. 1335)
House of Premyslid
Great grandaughter of Otakar II

- King Albrecht I of Denmark (b. 1368)
House of Holstein-Rendsburg
Grandson of Count Gerhard III of Holstein, who siezed control of Denmark following the Danish Civil War

- King *Valdemar II of Karelia (b. 1339)
House of Bjällbo
Great grandson of Magnus I of Sweden

- Grand Prince *Dmitri II of Moscow (b. 1376)
House of Neva
Son of Dmitri Donskoi, decendent of Alexander Nevsky

- Grand Duke Alexander I of Lithuania
House of Gediminaičiai
In TTL, Kęstutis kept Jogaila out of power. Alexander is TTL's Vytautas, who married a daughter of the House of Neva, and converted Lithuania to Orthodoxy

- King Ladislas V of Hungary
Also King Ladislas I of Naples
House of Capet-Anjou
Son of Charles III of Naples / Charles II of Hungary

- Emperor *Jakub I of the Ottoman Empire
House of Osman
Assasinated his brother, Bayezid I, in the mid-1390s

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
I was reading some wiki, and it does have interesting things to say about Brandenburg- namely that it propably should be Wittlesbach ITL...

 

[Justin Pickard]

Right ho, I sketched out some more brief ideas last night. I guess that what I am looking for from this timeline is the following by the mid seventeenth cnetury;

- Fortified towns with river or canal boat transport the normal means of transportation. Lawlessness prevails beyond the city walls, with highwaymen and wild animals active, and rumours of monsters and witches.

- Towers of light as beacons in the dark wastes --> optical semaphore for communications, watchtowers for defense, light sources to guide travellers.

- A Europe of city states, political rivalries and Machiavellian intrigues.

I thought that the timeline could run loosely thus...

- C13th/14th, as already detailed but with relatively rapid consolidation and growth of Ottoman Empire as local hegemon beyond the borders of OTL.

- C15th, consolidation of Bo-Po dominated 'Mitteleurope' and Ottoman Empire. Technological development (more developed than OTL in some areas, retarded in others), and the encroachment of the Ottomans on European territories.

- late C15th, a European alliance initiate a 'Crusade' against the 'Ottoman menace'.

- C16th, a pyrrhic victory for the European alliance, who overstretch themselves. Ultimately, the alliance proves unstable and, as the former allies begin to turn on one another in dividing the spoils of war - religious conflict and civil dissent erupt on the substate level. Revolutions, counter-revolutions, turmoil, and anarchy follow, with several decades of war and conflict.

- early C17th, gradual re-establishment of an equilibrium of sorts in a very different Europe to the one that we know and love.

-----

Anyone got any ideas, especially how I can get the Ottoman Empire to grow and consolidate faster than in OTL. In 1400, the Emperor is Jakub [Yakub?] I, OTL younger brother of Bayezid I, who I intend to set up as a 'Great Man' of sorts.

Bayezid I (ca 1354–1403) was the sultan of the Ottoman Empire from 1389 to 1402. He ascended to the throne following the assassination of his father Murad I and immediately had his younger brother Yakub strangled to prevent him from staging a coup.

Now, I reckon that, in TTL, Bayezid dies from something nasty and unexpected in the 1370s, allowing Yakub to take his place in the annals of history.

My question is: what 'bottom-up' forces, when combined with the activities of Jakub/Yakub, could allow the Ottomans to spread?

 

[Magnificate]

- Fortified towns with river or canal boat transport the normal means of transportation. Lawlessness prevails beyond the city walls, with highwaymen and wild animals active, and rumours of monsters and witches.

- Towers of light as beacons in the dark wastes --> optical semaphore for communications, watchtowers for defense, light sources to guide travellers.

- A Europe of city states, political rivalries and Machiavellian intrigues.

Please don't create a dystopian world.

Jakub/Yakub

Well, my name is Jakub and I transcript this name into english as Jacob.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Please don't create a dystopian world.

It's not going to be entirely dark, just different. I'm aiming for a relatively realistic yet pulpy clockpunk setting for some fiction I want to write.