The Anglo-Saxon Social Model

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Rattigan, Dec 17, 2018.

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  1. EnvarKadri Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, Lincoln superpowers seem more easy to sell to the 19th century in a context of war than one of peace. After all WWI and the Great deppression for otl capitalists to accept State regulation, specially in USA.
     
  2. Kammada Well-Known Member

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    Now I see that you weren't kidding when you dropped that Lincoln goes full Charles de Gaulle ITTL.
     
  3. Nyvis Well-Known Member

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    Rewriting the constitution through referendum is a very De Gaulle thing yes. Or just a French thing.
     
  4. TC9078 Empire

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    Wow. Man, in this TL, Lincoln must be some kind of secular saint to America's African-American population.
     
  5. Thomas1195 Well-Known Member

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    You know, politically the Liberals have nothing to lose if they abolish agricultural tariffs while maintaining manufacture tariffs. If anything, such move would tear the Conservative power base apart, since the urban working class wants free food a.k.a no food tariffs, while the Liberal Party was anything but a countryside/rural party.
     
  6. Drunkrobot Well-Known Member

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    I don't follow. Surely doing this would provide something for the Conservatives to rally around ("Bring back the tariffs!"), something that might attract the new class of small landowners as well?
     
  7. Nyvis Well-Known Member

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    But the conservatives would lose the conservative workers who benefit from the cheaper products.
     
  8. Rattigan Well-Known Member

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    These are all interesting points but I think they miss that a lot of Liberal support ITTL, especially in Ireland, comes from the newly-created class of small(ish)-holding farmers, for whom the dropping of agricultural tariffs is a big no-no. Of course, the Conservatives are very divided on the tariff so such a blunder by the Liberals wouldn't necessarily help them.

    Other thing to remember is that the general agreement on tariffs with India and the Dominions from 1892 makes it difficult for the UK to unilaterally drop tariffs (especially where to do so would be directly contrary to the interests of the Canadians and Australians).
     
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  9. Nyvis Well-Known Member

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    Could Labour end up the ones with a position of tariffs for industry but free trade for agriculture/raw materials?
     
  10. Rattigan Well-Known Member

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    I think that's definitely something they'll be considering (I've been meaning to do a piece looking at Labour specifically because they'll become very important very soon) but, again, query the extent to which such a policy would be politically possible given the 1892 agreement. The price of greater imperial unity is less power to act unilaterally, as ever.
     
  11. Nyvis Well-Known Member

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    Would British Labour care about imperial unity? Maybe in time, and with alliances with dominion labour movements, they could come to do so, but at this time, would they?

    And definitely hyped for a piece about them.
     
  12. Rattigan Well-Known Member

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    Labour IOTL was never really an anti-colonialist party (it was basically forced to leave India in 1947 because the choice was either that or massive oppression and Attlee was horrified when Indian became a republic in 1950) and ITTL links between Labour and other social democratic parties in the Commonwealth will be important.

    More stuff will be forthcoming but might have to wait a while. I'm teaching a crammer course for the next two weeks and that's taking up a lot of my time. I'll still be working on my next update (which will cover the war up to the end of 1913 and will be followed by pieces on Labour and the British domestic political scene up to December 1913) and will drop into the board to answer any questions/comments/abuse. I hope to have at least one of those updates up by the end of this week and then one more some time next week. Hopefully things will calm down after that and I can get back to more regular posting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  13. Threadmarks: The Great War, 1913

    Rattigan Well-Known Member

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    Deciding the Theatres: May - December 1913
    Battle of Lemberg.jpg Bulgarian Retreat.jpg Doughboys.jpg Ottomans.jpg
    Images from the fronts (l-r): Russian prisoners in Austrian custody after the Battle of Lemberg; retreating Bulgarian soldiers after the Battle of Adrianpole; one of the first contingents of American soldiers in France, autumn 1913; Ottoman soldiers retreating in winter 1913.

    Amidst the confusion of the various mobilisations and invasions of the spring crisis, the fighting throughout the rest of 1913 was initially chaotic but, by Christmas, had settled into the patterns that it would for the rest of the conflict. These months also saw the development of four fronts which were, in many cases, fought between substantially different armies and which would define the rest of the war. The Western Front was fought primarily in Belgium and along the Franco-German border, where the min belligerents were the Belgian, German and French armies (with the American army not joining the fighting in substantial numbers until closer to the end of the year). The Eastern Front was fought over the enormous Northern European Plain largely between the Germans, Austrians and Russians. The Balkan Front saw combat between the Ottoman Empire, Austria, Germany and the Balkan League, largely in the three theatres of northern Serbia, Albania and Thrace. The Caucuses Front was fought between the Russians and the Ottomans, in eastern Anatolia and the Caucuses mountain range.

    On the Western Front, the German army managed to bat back Belgian resistance without altering their invasion schedules and many assumed that Belgium would make common cause with their French neighbours, especially once the French army entered Belgian territory on 4 May. However, the Belgian public was outraged by this second encroachment on Belgian sovereignty which made it politically impossible for a formal alliance to be concluded. Instead, the Belgian King and commander in chief, Albert I, publically condemned the French invasion but at the same time ordered his troops to resist only the Germany army. He made an international appeal (mostly aimed at Britain) for intervention, pointedly referring to the “two invasions” of his country.

    Nevertheless, the French were encouraged by the fact that they could march unopposed (albeit also unaided) through Belgium and their commander in chief, General Robert Nivelle, essayed an aggressive and destructive strategy based on vigrorous infantry assaults and enormous artillery barrages. This so-called ‘cult of the offensive’ managed to stall the German advance, especially at the Battle of Antwerp in July 1913. However, they failed to forge a decisive breakthrough and, given that members of the American Expeditionary Force would not be present in sufficient numbers until the end of the year, saw the French Army suffer enormous casualties (over 260,000 dead or wounded by the beginning of September).

    Meanwhile, France’s Entente ally Russia was having more success on the Eastern Front. Germany had been surprised by the speed of the Russian mobilization in the spring and the Germany army in eastern Prussia and the Austrian army in Galicia was unprepared for the full Russian invasion that began in May 1913. General Aleksei Brusilov launched an aggressive attack into Prussia, rapidly advancing nearly 100 miles and crushing the German forces arrayed against it at the Battle of Allenstein. However, Brusilov’s successes in Prussia were undermined by the failure of the Russian Advance in Galicia, which was decisively defeated by General Franz Conrad von Hotzendorf at the Battle of Lemberg with the loss of 60,000 Russian POWs. Aware that he risked being cut off by a potential Austrian advance north from Galicia; Brusilov was forced to retire behind Russian borders in the winter of 1913, in conformance with a more general withdrawal.

    One of the reasons why the Germany Army was not ready for an invasion in Prussia, aside from their arrogance about the speed with this Russia could mobilise, was the fact that the German Eighth Army, under the command of Paul von Hindenburg, had been deployed to Istanbul in February 1913 in order to meet any invasion by the Balkan League. A combined Bulgarian and Greek army under the command of the Bulgarian General Mihail Savov was met on 26 June 1913 outside Adrianople by the Eight Army with support from Ottoman units. The battle resulted in the complete destruction of the Balkan army and Savov’s suicide. The German army then punched into Thrace and followed up with victory at the Battle of Alexandroupolis, which virtually annihilated the Greco-Bulgarian army and kept them off-balance into the spring of 1914. This campaign brought much prestige to Hindenburg and his chief of staff Erich Ludendorff.

    Despite the disasters in Thrace, the Balkan League otherwise saw a mixed year of fighting, as the Balkan army successfully completed the occupation of Albania by December and stalled an Austrian invasion of Serbia. The Serbian success in this theatre, against a much larger Austrian army, brought great prestige to its armed forces but is nowadays generally thought to have been the result of uninspired Austrian generalship, which failed to press home its advantage when it could have.

    The predominance of the German army in Thrace can be explained by the poor conditions of Ottoman infrastructure in 1913 and the fact that the Russian army commenced an invasion of western Armenia in June, which left few Ottoman forces available to meet the invasion in the west. As it had in the Balkan War the previous year, the Ottoman army found itself beset with issues of supply, communication, morale and leadership. The Russians won notable victories at Karakose and Van, forcing Enver Pasha to not only take personal command of the theatre but also order a general retreat in December, under the cover of the harsh winter conditions.

    After setbacks in a number of smaller engagements, the German defeat at the First Battle of Ghent in September saw their assault in Belgium stall for the final time (and, indeed, saw the first engagement of American troops in a European theatre). For the rest of the year, the German army tried a series flanking maneuvers to the north, none of which were successful, and which were countered by a botched French invasion of Alsace which came to an end with German victory at the Battle of Strasbourg. These attacks finished in October and November with a defensive line being stabilized from the English Channel at Zeebrugge to the River Scheldt, then down to Reims and finally in a line to Verdun and through the middle of Alsace-Lorraine to the Swiss border. With the AEF arriving in progressively larger numbers, the German army dug a series of fortifications and decided to try and hold what they could while seeking a breakthrough on other fronts next year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  14. Thomas1195 Well-Known Member

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    Lol
     
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  15. Rattigan Well-Known Member

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    Poor old Hotzy... I'm giving him a bit more success this time because I like a dreamer...
     
  16. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

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    How the heck does the CSA hold out until 1869!?
     
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  17. Rattigan Well-Known Member

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    I might go into this in more depth at some point later but the short answer is that the border states secede and there's greater unrest in the North. So DC falls and the CSA early on makes some raids as far north as Philadelphia. As the war moves on, they use guerrilla tactics across the continent to further prolong it, with the end result that the Union leadership by about 1865 doesn't just want them beaten but wants to salt the earth from under them too.
     
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  18. TC9078 Empire

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    Even if the border states secede, raids ain't reaching Philly.
     
  19. Rattigan Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be honest, military history isn't really something that interests me all that much and the exact details of ITTL Civil War aren't that important to me beyond it lasting longer than it does IOTL. But with the border states seceding, CSA capturing DC, Union federal government in flight and in complete disorder: the idea of a CSA army getting as far north as Philadelphia doesn't seem all that implausible (at least as a large raiding party as opposed to a full invasion).
     
  20. TC9078 Empire

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    The problem is, even if the border states secede (and Delaware would fall within the week), any CSA force would need to cross the Susqushanna River to reach Philadelphia. There are very few fords to cross, especially downriver, and all of them would be defended by both militias and regular army forces.

    If any CSA army wanted to cross the Susquehanna, the only option would be to take Harrisburg, which is far, far out of the way. Unless they wanted to try a naval invasion (good luck with that).
     
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