The Anglo/American - Nazi War

[Cmyers1980]

Albert Speer did an interview with Eric Norden for Playboy in 1971. Here's an excerpt from it that Eric Norden then used to create a short story about life in Nazi controlled America post Axis victory:

"If the Nazis had won, of course, things on the surface would eventually have settled down to an appearance of normality. The milkman would deliver his milk in the morning, the policeman would enforce the law, the doctor would cure the sick, people would still worry about their jobs, fight with their wives, save for a new car. But they would be living in a nightmare, buried in a graveyard of human hope and dignity, trapped in a hell they would never recognize, much less question. The long dark night would have begun, and finally man would not even remember the light."

The story inspired by this quote is titled The Ultimate Solution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Solution

The society described and taken by the protagonist as normal is as such: Blacks and Slavs being raised at "laboratories" and "farms" where their vocal cords are cut at birth and having the legal status not of slaves but of "domestic animals"; naked Black gladiators fighting to the death at the Madison Square Garden (the Roman "thumbs up" or "down" are modernised into green and red buttons, with a computer making the tally and automatically electrocuting the losing gladiator); children encouraged by TV programs to torture and kill animals; policemen routinely carrying mobile torture kits for "on the spot interrogations" and having the power of extrajudicial execution against "Enemies of the Reich"; body parts of murdered Jews on sale at souvenir shops, with "collectors" trying to have "a complete collection" of samples from all extermination camps; Christianity (and presumably other religions as well) suppressed in favor of Odinist temples...

Former extermination camps are open to the public as "national shrines" – not to commemorate the victims, as in our world, but to glorify the murderers and present them as heroes. What we know as the inoffensive town of Croton-on-Hudson is in this world an American Auschwitz where the Jews of New York and the East Coast perished (another camp is mentioned in the Rocky Mountains, for the West Coast). At the entrance to the town, an Elks Club sign proclaims proudly: "Welcome to Croton-on-Hudson, home of the Final Solution! Here perished four million enemies of the Reich." Norden is careful to describe how Nazi doctrine in this world merges with the "American way": a neighboring town whose inhabitants gave refuge to escaping Jews was totally destroyed and its inhabitants massacred, like Lidice, Czechoslovakia; its site was then covered with asphalt and made into a huge parking lot, and later an enormous shopping center was erected on the spot

What this summary failed to mention was that also Slavs are imported as either sex-slaves or as the victims of torture clubs (Think the film Hostel). There are even brothels staffed solely by Slav children who are often killed and replaced due to the sadistic and brutal treatment they face from high profile SS and other elite German clientele.

 

[Ming777]

Another horrifying aspect is that the Nazis helped turn the A4 into near-knight templars.

To use a DC comics analogy, this is like the Justice Lords of the DCAU at best and at worst the Regime from Injustice.

 

[Geon]

Another horrifying aspect is that the Nazis helped turn the A4 into near-knight templars.

To use a DC comics analogy, this is like the Justice Lords of the DCAU at best and at worst the Regime from Injustice.

Cmyers

I doubt the Nazis would advocate cruelty to animals. Remember Hitler was an animal lover and couldn't even stand to see cruelty shown in movies. He would leave the room if such scenes came up. Further Hitler had a deep affection for his dog Blondie. Yes, he had her poisoned before the Russians arrived in the bunker in OTL. But consider what the Russians might have done to that poor dog had they learned it was Hitler's. In any event, I could see the Nazis being more humane in their laws for the protection of animals then they were for human beings.

As to your DC comics analogy Ming, it is not as bad as the Justice Lords in Calbear's world. There is self determination. People can live their lives in relative freedom. The A4 may be arrogant, but they are determined to maintain a world where the horrors of the last war will never occur again.

Geon

 

[tenthring]

The scariest part is that, unless you are a racist and believe there was something special about Germans to make them go along with shit like this, you need to accept that, had something like a Nazi takeover happened here and now, we all probably would have sunk to the same depths as the Nazis.

Nazi ideology is basically pre-20th century ideology. Genghis Kahn wouldn't bat an eye at wiping out whole peoples so that the land would return to pasture for his horses.

Remember that in a malthusian world killing others to eat is an inevitability (and land = food for most of history, hence Lebensraum). It stands to reason that if we are creatures of evolution, and most of our evolution has happened in a Malthusian environment, that the urge to kill others in the name of expanding our groups land and resources is deeply embedded in us.

Sometimes its naked aggression (like the Mongol's). Sometimes some flimsy pretense is used (Rome conquered the world in a defensive war). Doesn't really matter.

If conditions ever become Malthusian again I expect 20th century attitudes will melt away and revert to the evolutionary norm for most of human history. It's in our genes. The future has more Hitlers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY_3d3OYqg

 

[CalBear]

Calbear, why did you choose your POD? Couldn't you have Stalin killed before the invasion and a power struggle break out in the Soviet Union?

There are a few different places that you can choose to take Stalin out. As you note, having him die before the war, another is just after the attack when he retreated to his dacha and had, for all appearances, a nervous breakdown and fully expected for the Politburo to have him shot (instead, of course they came out and begged him to return, saying that no one else could lead the country out of the crisis). Having them put a bullet in his head, or have him commit suicide to prevent a visit to the basement at Lubyanka would remove him, and that would almost certainly be enough. Still, the POD I chose allowed the removal of the best Red Army senior officers, ensuring that the Army would not be able, against the odds, to pull a miracle.

It wasn't/isn't perfect. It seemed, however, for the original purpose of the T/L (which, again, I envisioned to run maybe 10 pages, not 331 ) good enough.

That's something that really disturbs me both about what happened in OTL and in Calbear's. Namely, how large numbers of individuals of different occupied nations actively took part in the Nazis' crimes with no second thought. In Calbear's TL it is worse because Nazi indoctrination was longer and an entire generation grew up with this "superior race" stuff being stuffed into their little heads! The Holocaust wasn't just an indictment of the Nazis, in the final analyses it was an indictment of what all humans are truly capable of.

Which bring up another point. Calbear-how did denazification proceed in your timeline, particularly in those nations occupied for long years under the Nazis. I would venture a guess that war crime tribunals became a full time occupation for many for at least a generation given what happened here.

Geon

The one "positive" that comes out of the horrors that was the 3rd Reich, is that it serves, even today, as a massive warning, both to the world community of nations (dysfunctional as it may be) and to individuals.

The Nazis never hid their beliefs, even the broad strokes of their plans (although there was a concerted effort to hide what they had done once the worm turned). Everyone heard what they said, the thing was, no one believed it was anything but bluster and politicking. Political parties talk about "what they will do" and never actually intend to do it, or fully expect that opposition will prevent it. That is the way things work. It wasn't the way the Reich worked. They actually did every single thing they said, at least to the extent that they could before being crushed.

The world community doesn't sit around and let an expansionist group simply go for years any more. The reaction may be more muted that some want to see (the campaign against Da'esh is a reasonable example of this) but there is a reaction that cuts them off at the pass.

Individuals also know that silence equals consent to a much higher degree than in the pre-war era. There were plenty of people who opposed the Nazis in Germany, they simply didn't do anything until it was too late, and then didn't believe what they were seeing. I like to think that people are more will to put up the stop sign these days. Might be wrong, but I hope I'm correct.

 

[ThePest179]

A thought occurred to me:

What if Truman used nukes on Japan? Would the Nazis dismiss it as "propaganda", or scramble like ants trying to build one of their own?

 

[Cmyers1980]

A thought occurred to me:

What if Truman used nukes on Japan? Would the Nazis dismiss it as "propaganda", or scramble like ants trying to build one of their own?

And how long would it take for them to finish it assuming they aren't complete idiots and are somewhat competent? By competent I mean they devote the proper amount of resources and manpower to it and Hitler isn't just going to say one day during the middle of its development:

"Stop working on the nuclear program and let's try to build this really cool monster tank I thought of."

Though I wonder if the development of the Ju 688 bomber would interfere with any nuclear program. The Ju 688 program was a complete waste of resources also. I don't know exactly how much resources and manpower was used to build all of them but I know it would be way way too high regardless. The spark for its use against the Allies was supposed to be the death of Goebbels' son who was killed on a U Boat which makes it even worse in hindsight considering the 1954 attacks triggered the Allies to finally get rid of Nazi Germany.

The Reich had spent several years gathering the bomber force that was used on St. Patrick’s Day and, by any measure, had developed a considerable force. Nearly 600 of the Ju-688s were involved in the attacks, launching from almost twenty airfields across Europe. Over 400 of these aircraft, in eight separate formations, were destined for the United States. Had the Luftwaffe selected different targets than those that were actually attacked, enormous damage could have been visited onto the American industrial heartland. However, no matter how many staff officers pushed for attacks on Detroit and Chicago and Windsor, attacks that would actually be of consequence to the Allied ability to make war, the Nazi Party powers would not hear of it. Instead the great cities of the Eastern Seaboard, irresistible to the amateur political minds making the actual tactical decisions about the raids, were selected.

Flight 5 was the only Luftwaffe formation to manage anything close to a coordinated attack. Having managed to get through the initial radar barrier undetected it was not located until it was less than 200 miles from New York City. It immediately attracted the attention of no less than 12 fighter squadron flying everything from elderly P-51s to nine early model F-100 Super Sabers flying from Wright Patterson airfield in eastern Ohio, as well as F-9 Cougar fighters from the USS Guadalcanal. The courage of the Luftwaffe pilots flying through this gauntlet can not be overestimated, as they had learned of the obliteration of most of their fellows while en-route to the target as one squadron after another reported enemy contact and then dropped off the air. Only eight of the German bombers made it to within sight of New York City with six of them managing to make a successful bomb run over central Manhattan, while a seventh aircraft crashed in lower Manhattan. All told some 18,000 pound of bombs struck Midtown, causing serious damage and claiming over 800 lives, all but 26 of them civilians. As would be expected, the Ju-688s did not escape the vengeful efforts of the American fighters as they attempted to withdraw.

To put 36 bombs onto Manhattan, and an additional 18 bombs into Georgetown the Reich had expended 378 aircraft and over 4,000 men.

The Luftwaffe also targeted London as part of the St. Patrick’s Day Raids. Here, there was no surprise at all; as radar stations along the English coast watched the Luftwaffe formations form up in increasingly alarming numbers. At almost the same moment as Flight 7 was meeting its fate off the Maryland coast, the largest air battle since 1945 began over the English Channel. Here, the RAF and its USAAF allies didn’t have the luxury of time or distance to intercept the enemy hundreds of miles out to sea, no Genie rockets with nuclear warheads to swat the enemy from the skies over the vastness of the open ocean, the British defenders didn’t have the advantage of attack unescorted 400 mph bombers with 700 mph fighters. Here the fighting was done at knife-fighting distances as close to 2,400 aircraft struggled for the upper hand. London was heavily damaged as several hundred German bombers struck at the British capital in the heaviest raid against the City since January of 1946. By the time the last Luftwaffe aircraft retreated behind the flak curtain along the French coast almost nine hours had passed. The toll, both in damage and in aircraft was enormous. RAF and USAAF fighters claimed 228 kills, while AAA crews claimed an additional 306 Luftwaffe aircraft shot down (post war records indicate that the actual Luftwaffe losses were between 256 and 292 aircraft) while the RAF had lost 56 fighters along with 19 American aircraft lost.

Even before the last German pilot had been debriefed Washington and London had made a joint decision to end things in the only way that was certain to work. Europe would have to be invaded, the Reich met and utterly defeated in the field.

 

[xxmagex]

Then, as you start to really dig, you find out how actively evil the Reich was, the deeper you go, the worse it gets. I finally reached a point that I was done. Undoubtedly I left a number of levels of Hell undiscovered in the Reich's story, but I had all I could take.

I recall that Philip K Dick once talked about writing a sequel to "the Man in the High Castle". In the end, he didn't saying, to paraphrase- he just couldn't stand getting inside the mind of Heydrich and the Nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle#Sequel

 

[Cmyers1980]

I recall that Philip K Dick once talked about writing a sequel to "the Man in the High Castle". In the end, he didn't saying, to paraphrase- he just couldn't stand getting inside the mind of Heydrich and the Nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle#Sequel

I wonder if Hitler's successors would either be as ideologically devoted as him or slightly moderate in comparison. Though a moderate Nazi is still in the same league of evil. Heydrich I would describe as a vicious cold blooded pragmatist. He wasn't obsessed with the occult like Himmler was but he still was a devoted Nazi.

In the AANW TL we only got to see Hitler's post war rule followed by Himmler once Hitler had a stroke and became an invalid. Who was next in line after Himmler's rule if Germany hadn't been defeated is hard to say.

 

[Kung Fucious]

As an aside; CalBear, have you ever mocked up what some of the fighting vehicles (on both sides) looked like? I know most of the naval and air assets of the WAllies are basically OTL (with a few minor exceptions, including the Montana-class, which OTL never got off the drafting table), but most of the tanks and APC's, not to mention the Reich's air and naval assets are wholly original.

If there aren't mockups available (either done by yourself or others), what are some OTL designs that are roughly similar?

 

[Octosteel]

I wonder if Hitler's successors would either be as ideologically devoted as him or slightly moderate in comparison. Though a moderate Nazi is still in the same league of evil. Heydrich I would describe as a vicious cold blooded pragmatist. He wasn't obsessed with the occult like Himmler was but he still was a devoted Nazi.

In the AANW TL we only got to see Hitler's post war rule followed by Himmler once Hitler had a stroke and became an invalid. Who was next in line after Himmler's rule if Germany hadn't been defeated is hard to say.

Once Himmler gets in, his successor would only be just as crazy as he is. Best chance for "moderate" Nazi leadership is immediately post-Hitler if someone like Speer or just a Wehrmacht junta takes control followed by an immediate Night of Long Knives on the SS.

 

[Kung Fucious]

I wonder if Hitler's successors would either be as ideologically devoted as him or slightly moderate in comparison. Though a moderate Nazi is still in the same league of evil. Heydrich I would describe as a vicious cold blooded pragmatist. He wasn't obsessed with the occult like Himmler was but he still was a devoted Nazi.

In the AANW TL we only got to see Hitler's post war rule followed by Himmler once Hitler had a stroke and became an invalid. Who was next in line after Himmler's rule if Germany hadn't been defeated is hard to say.

Heydrich was probably one of the few true blue sociopaths in Nazi ranks, I recall (though I can't place where) him flat out saying that he thought the Holocaust was dumb and a waste of resources, but he went along with it anyway because it was a great way to consolidate his own power base. The man was ruthlessly intelligent and ambitious, and he'd do anything if he thought he'd come out ahead.

Of course, he also thought Canaris was his best friend and a loyal Nazi, so...

 

[Octosteel]

Heydrich was probably one of the few true blue sociopaths in Nazi ranks, I recall (though I can't place where) him flat out saying that he thought the Holocaust was dumb and a waste of resources, but he went along with it anyway because it was a great way to consolidate his own power base. The man was ruthlessly intelligent and ambitious, and he'd do anything if he thought he'd come out ahead.

Of course, he also thought Canaris was his best friend and a loyal Nazi, so...

Still, I would be really interested to see a Fuhrer Heydrich timeline. I guess he probably still would invade Russia though which would cause him to lose regardless.

 

[Kung Fucious]

Still, I would be really interested to see a Fuhrer Heydrich timeline. I guess he probably still would invade Russia though which would cause him to lose regardless.

This is obviously speculation on my part, since I'm far from an expert on the subject, but my guess is that if Heydrich somehow ascended to the Fuhrership in the 40's (leapfrogging Goering, who'd probably be just a Wehrmacht yes man/German Mussolini, and Himmler, who'd be pants-on-head bugfuck crazy), he'd probably chart a middle line between Hitler and the cold pragmatism of something like Tom Colton's Weber's Germany.

Heydrich was a "pragmatic", ruthless sociopath, but he was also a gambler (that comes with the sociopath territory), so he'd probably still aim big and end up losing big.

 

[CalBear]

As an aside; CalBear, have you ever mocked up what some of the fighting vehicles (on both sides) looked like? I know most of the naval and air assets of the WAllies are basically OTL (with a few minor exceptions, including the Montana-class, which OTL never got off the drafting table), but most of the tanks and APC's, not to mention the Reich's air and naval assets are wholly original.

If there aren't mockups available (either done by yourself or others), what are some OTL designs that are roughly similar?

I didn't do any mockups. Drawing is not inside my skill set.

The heavy U.S. tank the "M-92 Chamberlain" was more or less the M-103 Longstreet heavy tank with a beefed up power pack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M103_heavy_tank

The "M-47 Sheridan" is more or less an M-60 with a Royal Ordnance 105mm gun.

The Reich's systems were more "mind's eye" improved versions of the Panther and what a Tiger might look like with sloped armor. The aircraft were similar, mainly I went to the dreaded Luft 46 to get some idea of what was in the designers heads as far as appearances, coupled that with known capabilities of aircraft, and ran with it. As far as ships, I tried to avoid going into too much detail, mainly because I didn't want to spend six months sweating over a hull form.

 

[CalBear]

Heydrich was probably one of the few true blue sociopaths in Nazi ranks, I recall (though I can't place where) him flat out saying that he thought the Holocaust was dumb and a waste of resources, but he went along with it anyway because it was a great way to consolidate his own power base. The man was ruthlessly intelligent and ambitious, and he'd do anything if he thought he'd come out ahead.

Of course, he also thought Canaris was his best friend and a loyal Nazi, so...

Heydrich was the scary one. Brilliant (unlike most of the Party leaders, who had the intellect of a stunned koi fish), utterly amoral, and cold, even among his fellow National Socialist scum.

If he had ever taken over... bad juju.

 

[Kung Fucious]

Heydrich was the scary one. Brilliant (unlike most of the Party leaders, who had the intellect of a stunned koi fish), utterly amoral, and cold, even among his fellow National Socialist scum.

If he had ever taken over... bad juju.

On the bright side, by all accounts he had a goofy voice!

 

[Cmyers1980]

Since they planned to keep some of the Slav population alive as slaves I assume the Nazis were going to try to keep their small slave population going indefinitely?

So let's say after they kill x amount and deport x amount of the European Soviet population, they keep between 10 and 20% as slaves, they'll still be treated horribly but kept alive for some time, will the Germans attempt to keep their slave population that hasn't died already going through breeding so they can rely on them to be slaves for the settled Germans 1 or 2 generations after the initial victory?

Or were they planning on eventually having the native Germans take up the plow and make their own living without aid from live in slaves?

 

[CalBear]

Since they planned to keep some of the Slav population alive as slaves I assume the Nazis were going to try to keep their small slave population going indefinitely?

So let's say after they kill x amount and deport x amount of the European Soviet population, they keep between 10 and 20% as slaves, they'll still be treated horribly but kept alive for some time, will the Germans attempt to keep their slave population that hasn't died already going through breeding so they can rely on them to be slaves for the settled Germans 1 or 2 generations after the initial victory?

Or were they planning on eventually having the native Germans take up the plow and make their own living without aid from live in slaves?

Permanent underclass of illiterates with no written language. Pretty much what the Antebellum South was like, except the slaves would have no value as property so they could be eliminated as needed.

That seemed to be the idea. I have never seen anything that indicates the Party had thought the idea out completely, not on a multiple generation basis. It might exist, but I have never run across it.

 

[Cmyers1980]

I did some calculations and the actual toll of Generalplan Ost when viewed through the perspective of smaller amounts is even more shocking.

Let's say 50 million Slavs die in 30 years.

That's 4566 deaths a day on average for 3 decades straight.

Equivalent to 62.5 Rwandan Genocides (800k dead) or 2 every year if the 30 year estimate remains the same

50 million is roughly 6 times the entire population of the most populated city in the US (NYC)

Any toll higher than that and you get the point.

If the death toll was in the low 60 millions, that'd be enough bodies to circle the Earth TWICE.

5753 deaths a day for 30 years straight on average.

Every one of those people would be victims killed simply because they were born a different "race" and in a different country than that of the so called "Master Race."

All detailed in plans seen and agreed upon by thousands of people of varying levels of authority both civilian and military. Like it's been said before, to the Nazis planning mass murder was no more emotionally demanding then say doing your taxes or changing a tire.

Because in their eyes their victims weren't deserving of compassion since compassion and empathy can only be reserved for those you see as equal human beings just like you.

But if you see them at best as a pest that needs to be removed before you move into your new apartment and at worst as worthless animals fit only for suffering death and exploitation by their superiors, then you aren't going to shed a tear or lose sleep over their deaths.

Here's an excerpt from the Nuremberg Trials that I believe sums up the inevitable evil and destruction that occurs from such a callous attitude towards the lives of others:

DR. THOMA: Do you believe that Himmler's speech, in which he demanded the extermination of 30 million Slavs, expressed only his personal opinion; or do you consider that it corresponded to the National Socialist ideology?

VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI: Today I believe that it was the logical consequence of our ideology.

DR. THOMA: Today?

VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI: Today.

DR. THOMA: What was your own opinion at that time?

VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI: It is difficult for a German to fight through to this conviction. It took me a long time.

DR.THOMA: Then how is it that a few days ago a witness, namely, the Witness Ohlendorf, appeared here and admitted that through the Einsatzgruppen he had killed 90,000 people, but told the Tribunal that this did not harmonize with the National Socialist ideology?

VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI: I am of a different opinion. If for years, for decades, a doctrine is preached to the effect that the Slav race is an inferior race, that the Jews are not even human beings, then an explosion of this sort is inevitable.