The Anglo/American - Nazi War

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by CalBear, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. Tamara Well-Known Member

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    I just thought of something: Britain TTL will probably emphasize their Norman heritage a great deal. Partially because they don’t want to think of themselves as “German”, but more importantly to justify their owning Normandy and Brittany.
     
  2. Kaiser Kolovos Well-Known Member

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    The thought of the British avoiding being seen as Germanic by acting even more French. This could be a trend post war with nationalist movements purging anything "Germanic" in their nations, leading to many cultural revolutions and rediscovery (within A4 limits as to not be bombed from orbit).
     
  3. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Is it me or would "traditional" perceptions of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire as a period when Germanic barbarians destroyed the light of Rome, plunging Europe into a dark age, remain ingrained both in popular consciousness and academia for far longer owing to the Reich's actions against European culture?
     
  4. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I don't think they'll go that far. Remember that "Anglo-Saxons" were the predecessors of modern English people. The name "England" means "Land of Angles" in Old English. While dislike of Germans will be popular, I don't think Britain will eviscerate its own history.

    Certainly the role of the Germanic barbarians in the decay of the Roman Empire might be emphasized.

    Then again, considering how fascist Italy used the ideal of "Roman glory" as its unifying fiction, people might not be so eager to sing the glories of Rome either.
     
  5. Lalli Well-Known Member

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    I can't see UK or USA going attempt remove any Germanic influence from English or their culture. It is bit hard and I doubt that people would accept that.

    But perhaps A4 tries create every German state its own language based to local dialect (Austrian, Bavarian, Badenian, Rheinish etc.).
     
  6. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I don't think they'd focus on changing language. Merely emphasizing regional culture and identity to destroy a sense of Germany.
     
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  7. Simeon La empresa crecerá más grande

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    Except Prussian.
     
  8. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Could "Prussian militarism" get a lot of blame for the war?
     
  9. JamesHunter Well-Known Member

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    Probably less than OTL as its somewhat used to let the rest of Germany off the hook for WW1 and to an extent WW2. ITTL though the fact Hitler was an Austrian who got his start in Baveria will be emphasized and the blame game will be spread out much more equally. Also expect the Odeonsplatz photo to be used as proof all German's wanted the first world war and not just the Prussians so both wars are totally all of Germany's fault.
     
  10. wcv215 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, but Italy switched sides and was also attacked by Germany in their initial chemical attack.
     
  11. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I guess, but they still fed from the table of the Nazis.
     
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  12. GreenSword New Member

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    Long time lurker on this board. This is my first post.

    @CalBear : Holy crap, this is beautiful. A masterpiece.

    Personally, I have no problem with anything the A4 has done. Nothing.

    Without going too far into the weeds: I'm left/liberal on lots of things (mostly social and economic issues), but on what I call national sovereignty issues (borders/defense/etc), I'm hard Right.

    I've grown up OTL (obviously lol) and I wouldn't blink to do what was done to Stettin, or Japan. Why? I'm an American nationalist. If someone violently defies/endangers the US, no mercy. And then when they stop, we stop.

    Industrialized genocide (death camps) are beyond the pale, obviously. But otherwise, well ...

    "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." --- Robert E. Lee
     
  13. Simeon La empresa crecerá más grande

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    Well... the author himself was horrified of what the Americans he had written have done to Germany ITTL, notwithstanding that it was a justified call, and him being a mod here...

    I think you’d get a really good talk with him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019 at 2:11 AM
  14. Vanguard45 Well-Known Member

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    Let's face it, the best way to describe this tl is 'Hell'
     
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  15. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    To paraphrase Doc Brown:

    "No its Planet Earth alright, but I can't imagine hell being much worse."

    I think I would prefer the fiery pits then the burnt out remains of Paris.
     
  16. Lalli Well-Known Member

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    True. Speciality Europe is really bad shape several years after the war. Basically all countries are economically in bad shape. France is ruined. Germany is extremely ruined (WMDs, millions dead, large areas poisoned by radioactivity and chemicals, economically ruined, and balkanised and occupied. Soviet Russia is living corpse. West Russia is not much better. Benelux Countries, Denmark and Norway are econically dire situation, bittered and politically divided, just imaginate all that grudge towards collaboratists and even them who were in any doing with Germans. Poland is not going recover from Nazi tyranny in many generations.
     
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  17. Evan Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness!

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    No. "Hell" would be a lot closer to a continued Nazi victory.

    I really see where you're coming from here. I really see why the A4 did what they did, and I cheer with them for their willingness to protect the peace of the world and their Goldwater Doctrine of overwhelming and disproportionate response to evil. But, just the same, we shouldn't punish the children for the sins of the fathers. A new generation of Germans - two generations - has grown up, and the A4 are still holding them down under the grudge-filled boots of Poland and Ukraine. Yes, this's far better than the Nazis did to Poland and Ukraine. Yes, it's even better than waving good-bye and letting a Germany indoctrinated in Nazism make its own way. Similarly, what the A4 are doing in the rest of the world is (IMO) better than the "kleptocracies" and interminable tribal wars (not really "civil" wars because there was no civil society) that happened far too often IOTL.

    But just the same... I'm still uncomfortable with too much of what the A4 are doing. I feel sort of like when I read Anscombe's essays against area bombing of civilians (written during and just after WWII iOTL). She has a great ethical point. Area bombing, and the OTL atomic bomb, and the A4's iTTL actions, make perfect practical sense. It would be foolish, if not criminally negligent, to take any other actions. But all the same - as Anscombe cries out - they're wrong. There must be a better course somehow.

    And how can I object? Fiat Justitia, ruat caelum.
     
  18. Vanguard45 Well-Known Member

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    An excellent point on both quotes. A continued Nazi victory is indeed a special brand of hell but for the people living in the territories affected by said conflict all they are aware of is how hellish a world they were born into is.
     
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  19. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I don't know. I can understand the strategic decision of the A4 as making sense in-universe. I can understand that the crimes of the Nazis ITTL are almost totally unforgivable.

    But sometimes...I feel the Nazis have won..in a way.

    Sure, Hitler's New Order was destroyed by his own belligerence. Sure the swastika no longer hangs over Europe. Sure most of the world has at least SOME kind of democracy. Sure fighting wars for stupid nationalistic reasons has been dumped on the ash-heap of history. But one aspect of Nazism hangs over the world: terrorizing an entire people for a crime they were not responsible for.

    The Nazis, in their blood-soaked quest for dominance and Lebensraum, couldn't differentiate between the Stalinist killers who probably deserved a bullet in the head and average civilian wanting to escape Soviet domination. Thus, millions of men, woman, and children who could've built a better Poland, Russia, Ukraine, or Belarus were gassed like insects or worked to death in vast slave labor projects. Western Europe, while not slaughtered, had their lands and works destroyed for a barely comprehensible strategy of scorched Earth.

    The A4 are, in the immediate aftermath of World War II, probably justified in their treatment of the Germans. It isn't just the sheer scale of the Nazis crimes. Is that there was almost zero objection to them by the average German until literally the tail end of the war.

    There aren't any stories of heroes like Sophie Scholl or Oskar Schindler. There aren't any stories of military figures who showed some decency, like Wilm Hosenfeld, or Dietrich von Cholitz, who disobeyed Hitler to save Paris.

    The Germans, willfully and blindly, all fought for the mad death cult that was Nazism with little hesitation or mercy, even when conditions were already unbearable. They fought and fought for a regime that saw mass murder as a good policy goal.

    So yes, occupying the German people for at least a generation would be a reasonable decision.

    But keeping Germany divided permanently, and blaming the 20-something descendants for what the Nazis did reeks off...well...the kind of oppression that ultranationalist states are known for.

    It feels like that the A4 have won the war but lost their souls, because like the Nazis, they are associating an entire ethnic group with the crimes of their ancestors and stomping on them.

    Then again, they don't know about OTL Germany, which has eschewed nationalism in favor of tolerance and international cooperation.

    ITTL, someone might think the appointment of Adolf Hitler will be an event equivalent to breaking the Seven Seals.

    Seriously, all of the horsemen have been dominant over Europe for a generation:

    Conquest/Pestilence: The Nazis conquering Europe to make an empire, and subjugating millions./The Nazis unleashing horrific biological plagues on Eastern Europe.

    War: The Nazis started the worst war in history.

    Famine: The Nazis eagerly and methodically planned the starvation of millions in order to feed the German people.

    Death: The cult of Nazism has caused more death then any other anthropological force in modern history.
     
  20. naraht Well-Known Member

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    Dec 7, 2010
    A thought...

    I think that everyone (except maybe the Chinese) would agree that the crimes of the Germans iTTL were worse that those of the Japanese iTTL (whether deliberately or not, the Germans just had more time to implement them) and those of the Japanese iTTL are not really much different than those of the Japanese iOTL.

    iOTL, less than 6 months into the war ADm Halsey said "Before we’re through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell." So why didn't the equivalent occur during TTL? It almost feel that the A-4 didn't force the death of the German Language simply to make sure that the Germans as a people would remain a bogieman that they could scare the rest of the world with.

    What would things look like if Children in former German were only taught in English with penalties enforced for using German? By the 1980s, you might have German as a language of Rebellion, but I'm not sure that you wouldn't have German seriously limited. Yes, I know you have the examples of the Basque (and Catalonia?) as to why that doesn't work, but I'm wondering why the A-4 didn't try...
     
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