Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by CalBear, Nov 8, 2009.
I would imagine what has occurred ITTL has destroyed the faith of a lot of human beings.
Probably not as our own WWII and after saw a number of 'revivals' of faith mostly due to how 'bad' humans could be to other humans. I suspect there's some strain as time goes on because the rather 'regimented' lifestyle will resist change more than OTL which includes assumed and social faith. And there will be a LOT of 'vigorous discussion' on how atheist/agnostic the Nazi's were/were-not and how that effect how they are viewed.
So would people turn to faith more in order to escape the evils of ITTL?
Like with most things, the answer is "both". When catastrophe strikes, some people double down on their faith, others question or lose it. Some people find faith, others are reconfirmed in their non-belief.
There is a saying 'there are no aethiests in a fox hole'. However the codicil to that is 'though they often look a little silly when they get home'.
I saw that in the movie, Oh Brother Where Are Thou. George Clooney's character, an arrogant fugitive of the law, is about to be lynched. After going on rants about superstitions, he prays to God to spare him and his friends. When he is saved from hanging by a flood, he is then quick to return to atheism.
So would the Polish people who managed to survive the war would thank God for their lives?
As Incognita says some would and some would see it as "proof" there is no God, but keep in mind a LOT of the post-WWII 'revival' OTL was driven by fears of "Godless Communism" and the Cold War which isn't so TTL. That's where we got "mandatory" Pledge of Allegiance every morning in school and "In God We Trust" on our money. Myself for example had 'social' rather than actual faith till much later in life. Neither of my parents went to "Church" but they required that I do so, (my Mom took me till I was about 8 or 9 and then I went with family friends who attended regularly) until I turned 16. Many kids in my community were the same and more were more heavily involved both due to more religious parents and more social expectation to be faithful and attend Church.
It's one of those saying that actually HAS to have the little 'codicil' because in reality there are PLENTY of aethiests in foxholes who remain atheists through their whole combat experience. Pretty much exactly like the idea that, say, and anti-vaxer posts about standing up to her doctor and "everyone including the nurses and aids clapped and cheered" it's very much a /thathappened thing.
I was a witch/wiccan through my whole combat experience and never called to a higher power to protect me or smite the enemy... I DID however very often take the Lord's name in vain and speak Jesus' name out-of-context more often than normal which made several people who "knew" me assume that the above saying applied to me. What they did not know, or appear to grasp was that I was from a former career field where "f***" was a VERY flexible work and could be noun, verb, or adjective all at the same time! But it caused many of them to 'assume' that I would soon be attending Church with them and officially 'converting' to a Christian faith. (Oklahoma after all)
When I was adamant that nothing had changed the above saying and codicil was tossed around with abandon but I kept pointing out the FIRST assumption was invalid in the first place so no I was not feeling at all 'silly' at all. But above all those who are truly "faithful" have learned to be able to take certain things AS "faith" despite any evidence to the contrary
Yes and that was intentional since the time period and area being depicted had a very high rate of "revival" Christianity which was coupled to the "Old Time" music phenomenon. Clooney's character is using both to move forward but he really has no actual 'faith' even when he does pray. I tend to equate his character as a more competent version of "Bennie" from "The Mummy", he basically has whatever 'faith' is going to get him out of his current predicament as needed
Likely since the majority that 'survive' move to foreign enclaves when the Catholic church is still very strong and a very deep component of the community. As for those who actually survived IN Europe keep in mind that most of them won't remember a "church" or "Poland" which was for the majority wiped out before they were born. Older folks may have some memory but it won't be the 'same' as returning Poles who's religion will have taken on a "flavor" of whatever nation their parents fled too and their practice will reflect the same. It's going to be a very individual thing but I suspect that rather than thanking "God" the survivors will thank the A4 and it's goals and policies will become very close to a religion among them.
So would that fear shift to "Godless Nazism"? The Nazis were also pretty anti-clerical, with some wanting to eliminate Christianity altogether in favor of Hitler worship.
So the situation in Poland isn't "faith being destroyed" so much it is "faith being altered" since pre-war Poland is simply not salvageable.
Probably during the inter-war and second phase of the war there will be a good amount of such propaganda but in the end, (like "Atheist-Communism" OTL) if it's pushed hard then it will rebound just as hard after the Nazi's are defeated. ("Proof God wasn't on their side" and all that won't be all that convincing and argument to folks who aren't Christian or didn't believe in the first place. Like OTL it will still be more clear that it was ideological not 'faith' that drove the regime)
Pretty much. Just like the numerous re-imaginings of "pre-Christian" faiths have taken the bits and pieces and made new interpretations of the same. At least in this case it's likely a more reliable interpretation since the 'base' faith is still there but it likely won't be the pre-war "Polish" faith after all is said and done.
Well, I can still imagine more than a few priests in the army calling the Nazis "demonic". I mean, they pretty much brought the apocalypse to all of Europe.
The only people who have any Polish culture are the few Poles who were able to escape the slaughter, as well the Polish Americans who immigrate, and their culture will be greatly influenced by the nations they fled to.
I notice that there is no map of this in the finished thread?
There probably is one here, but on the other hand there are 476 pages...
"There is no overkill, there is only open-fire and reload!"
Same as everybody else.
Damn, no Cold War means no new tanks, warships, military firearms, ICBMs + SLBMs, and no new aircraft pass the ITTL New Century fighters and bombers. And Russia as a revived nation isn't going to the USSR weapon design route but a version that we could only speculate.
I don't know if this question has been asked yet, but what are labor rights like ITTL @CalBear?
I read about the origins of right-to-work laws in America. Basically, Vance Muse, some extremely far-right bigot, claimed that unions led to "miscegenation" and "creeping state socialism". He was able to successfully implement right-to-work in Texas in 1945.
Has the utter ruin of the Soviet Union made such dog-whistles utterly ineffective? Has the failure of USSR and the brutality of Nazism made people less afraid of Communism?
I mean I would think a muscular Social Democracy would be the baseline since the taxes remain high, I'm assuming that right to work laws never passed since the war is still on.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Taxes remain high because military spending remains high. Not because of any social programs. You gotta remember, the A4 maintained a military capability that would humiliate our OTL militaries even if you combined them all.
My mistake, it's been a while since I read it.
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