The Anglo/American - Nazi War

[CalBear]

If Ira Levin ever wrote something like the Stepford Wives, I bet it would be more based off of Nazi Germany then 1950s Connecticut. Nazi Germany ITTL seems the closest thing possible to a real-life crapsaccharine world.

Someone ITTL would say something like this:

"Nazism, like Lucifer, had a clean, shiny exterior. The greatest evils hide behind facades of beauty."



How did the ITTL Civil rights movement go? And what role did MLK and Malcolm X play.

Civil Rights were generally more advanced in ATL 1965 than IOTL thanks to the literal decades of integrated service in the military and the remarkable example that the Reich provided for what happens when you really let bigotry off the leash.

Answered the MKL question about 3,000 posts ago

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. - Navy Chaplin, Died on Green Beach 2 Posthumous Navy Cross.

Never really considered Malcom X

 

[Fan of Alternate History]

when you break that rule and deliberately push the British Berserk Button which was clearly laid out in 1940 (as in the Germans knew ALL ALONG that the Brits had anthrax and other nasty shit and not broken by HITLER after 18 years of conflict it IS a natural consequence that from the wind Germany has sown it then reaps the whirlwind.

How about that when Adolf Hitler is one of the most sane ones in the room in Germany. That shows you how truly f-ed up the Nazi leadership is.

 

[Bookmark1995]

How about that when Adolf Hitler is one of the most sane ones in the room in Germany. That shows you how truly f-ed up the Nazi leadership is.

Again, the fact that his successors proceeded to be even MORE fucking demented adds to the hatred of Germans as a whole.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Never really considered Malcom X

Given, OTL, he malingered to escape the draft, if it comes at be known TTL, it might be the end of his public career, along with the Nation of Islam if the public learn they were pro-Japanese.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Given, OTL, he malingered to escape the draft, if it comes at be known TTL, it might be the end of his public career, along with the Nation of Islam if the public learn they were pro-Japanese.

Would black nationalism even be popular ITTL? The 1960s ITTL are likely to be even MORE conformist considering America won the most awful war ever.

 

[Fan of Alternate History]

Because Indian troops took more ground and more losses than any Commonwealth nations (including the UK) during the invasion and land campaign, did so in something that was, strictly speaking, not their fight, and then were screwed over when their blood was no longer necessary.

The A-4 (Australia, Canada, UK & U.S.) flat out REFUSED to share not just bomb designs, but even the basic research. The A-4 met in 1963 (less than three years since Indian troops were leaving piles of corpses trying to save the Lyon rebels) and effectively determined the future of the WORLD, at least for the next half century, and India didn't even get a copy of the minutes.

India is acting aggrieved because they have every right to be. They are the World's largest democracy, managed a truly free and fair election in the face of separatist & religious extremist (by ALL parties, Hindu, Islamic and Sikh, as well as few other smaller groups) violence, something that is well nigh impossible without the restraint of Francis of Assisi or the Buddha himself, and they are getting pissed all over by their supposed friends.

If the Americans or British had been treated like the Indians they would be fomenting revolts across the Anglo-sphere and keeping their powder dry.

I agree completely that India is acting correctly. If anything, it is the A4 that is acting belligerent, it is as if the last twenty years fighting against unmitigated evil and racism was just window dressing for them to turnaround and backstab their allied over what is probably racism. I can think of no other reason other than racism for their actions.

 

[CalBear]

I agree completely that India is acting correctly. If anything, it is the A4 that is acting belligerent, it is as if the last twenty years fighting against unmitigated evil and racism was just window dressing for them to turnaround and backstab their allied over what is probably racism. I can think of no other reason other than racism for their actions.

Fear was also a major factor. They saw the destruction from the nukes and it scared the shit out of them. They couldn't roll back the knowledge from the four countries that had at least big parts of it, but they were damned if they were going to allow what IOTL is called Nuclear Proliferation.

If you look at just about everything the A4 has done since the end of the War is is aimed at one thing, preventing another 190 million people from getting killed because some lunatic gets control of a reasonably large country and goes off the deep end. Doing just about anything to stop that in its tracks is an ingrained reflex action. They do not know, yet, that they have failed in the most spectacular of manners thanks to the Chinese Cabal.

 

[Bookmark1995]

If you look at just about everything the A4 has done since the end of the War is is aimed at one thing, preventing another 190 million people from getting killed because some lunatic gets control of a reasonably large country and goes off the deep end. Doing just about anything to stop that in its tracks is an ingrained reflex action. They do not know, yet, that they have failed in the most spectacular of manners thanks to the Chinese Cabal.

And Germany, to put it mildly, wasn't even THAT large, and it managed to subjugate all of continental Europe.

China ITTL has two billion people, and it has the means to wage war on both India AND the US.

 

[Bbone91]

Hey Calbear, do you plan on writing a sequel series dealing with the Chinese Cabal?

 

[manacus]

first post on the thread but question what is ttl poland population as they lost at least 30 precent during ww2

 

[CalBear]

first post on the thread but question what is ttl poland population as they lost at least 30 precent during ww2

Try lost closer to 85%. GeneralPlan Ost was put into full effect.

ATL 2015 Poland still isn't back to close to its 1940 population total. Probably won't hit that level before 2150.

 

[CalBear]

Hey Calbear, do you plan on writing a sequel series dealing with the Chinese Cabal?

Not entirely sure. The plan was just the quick postscripts, but the continuing interest makes me think about it.

 

[Tsar of New Zealand]

Not entirely sure. The plan was just the quick postscripts, but the continuing interest makes me think about it.

The real question is which of your three projected futures you'd decide to go with: grimdark, status quo, or kumbayah.

 

[Fan of Alternate History]

Is safety, security and peace worth having a nanny watching you all the time?

There is a quote I remember by C.S. Lewis that really stuck with me.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

 

[Donald Reaver]

Cupidity/Greed has not shown yet to be satiated. An ally on my side compared to one who only sees me is as a source of money or a dead weight worthy of denying my existence however flawed is superior to that.

 

[A. Danov]

IF China China gets thumped.

The WAllied (e.g pre A4 alliance) personnel who were assigned to Occupation of Japan were pretty much horrified to the core by what the "Block and burn" strategy had wrought. Japan in this ATL collapsed in on itself due to mass starvation, not just from the blockade, but an active bombing campaign that made any sort of wheeled transportation or electric generating site a legitimate target. By the time the Japanese surrendered there were no big cities, not only because of the LeMay's bombers, although they certainly played a major role, but because the city dwellers had been forced to flee in hopes of finding food and perhaps a place that wouldn't wind up in a firestorm on some random evening. The WAllies had P-51s and Skyraiders strafing oxcarts and mules.

The personnel who were the first to land saw things that were close to what the troops who liberated the Nazi concentration camps did IOTL. The difference was those conditions were the result of aircraft with white stars of FAA/RAF roundels on their wings and naval gunfire from warships flying the Stars & Stripes or Union Jack. While it wasn't know by the term, most of the early occupation personnel wound up with PTSD to one degree or another.

Welcome to the Board.

I suppose I'm just more of a bloody-minded person when it comes to those who attack the US. I think a reputation of utter mercilessness towards our enemies is the best way to ensure we are left alone. I consider myself (on sovereignty/defense issues) an American nationalist. It was put best by someone else, I think:

“It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.”— Robert E. Lee, at Fredericksburg

 

[A. Danov]

There is a quote I remember by C.S. Lewis that really stuck with me.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

I get what you're saying, but honestly, if TTL manages to pass the China hurdle, there will be no war again, ever. The A4 simply won't allow it.

For me, that's a price worth paying.

 

[Historyman 14]

I get what you're saying, but honestly, if TTL manages to pass the China hurdle, there will be no war again, ever. The A4 simply won't allow it.

For me, that's a price worth paying.

Its more then just China. A4 Space mining can very well turn out totally dry,they collapse/goes into total isolationism and decades of ethnic tensions goes off, wars break out everywhere and people would know that millions and millions died for nothing, and the world looks like OTL.

The fate of Stettin I think is proof enough as well.

 

[sloreck]

At the premiere many years ago for the WWII in the Pacific movie made for the opening of the Pacific wing in the WWII Museum in New Orleans, there were a number of WWII veterans in the audience (including my father). Towards the end of the movie, a Japanese veteran was commenting how terrible the atomic bomb had been, the next comment on the screen was a WWII vet of infantry fighting in New Guinea whose comment was "if there hadn't have been a Pearl Harbor there would have been no Hiroshima". With that many of the elderly WWII vets in the audience stood up and cheered. My father (still alive) was a flight officer in B-29s and his comment about the atomic bomb was that, universally, the sentiment was "Thank God, we're going to live to go home".

The point of this is if you start a war, and especially if you start a war where you choose not to make any attempt to conduct operations under the laws of war, you have very little to complain about if Hell rains down upon you. "They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind"(Hosea 8-9).

 

[RanulfC]

I remember that one, it was ASB, there were assumptions that technology would be developed in the 50's that was somehow decades ahead of early 21st century technology. I dunno where such logic came from. Simply allowing uninhibited human testing does not guarantee drastically faster results.

I agree. From what I read, most Nazi "research" was little more than an excuse to horrifically torture people.
https://allthatsinteresting.com/nazi-research

Yeah, Mengele's experiments weren't just sadistic, but downright useless.

(Yes I know

You know you're responding to posts from NINE YEARS AGO, right? I get that this is a good TL, but maybe finish up reading before commenting, rather than this intermittent play-by-play.

but bear with me a bit I think this is a good point )

Actually in regards to the idea that somehow the Nazi's had developed some serious advanced technology was quite obviously OTL from the fact they in fact had. After all we'd seen jet aircraft, advanced tanks and weapons so the general consensus was they had a lot to offer or why would the Allies, (and specifically the US) go to such great lengths to horde that skill and knowledge? I recall a 1950-ish story in an old sci-fi magazine where Nazi's kidnap a US Congressman to warn him the Russians have developed flying saucer technology they stole from the Germans. (Did I mention they kidnap him IN a flying saucer and are taking him to meet Hitler who faked his death and is now living in a secret base in Antarctica? Oh and they have a Moonbase too but in the end they come to find out the other saucers are NOT the Russians... Sorry for starting an interstellar was there Earth)

And it carried on even though for the most part Operation Paperclip was aimed more at denying the Russians German knowledge and skills than keeping it for ourselves. (Sticking Von Braun out in the desert for a couple of years actually makes sense in that context) But the 'myth' was born of wartime paranoia and fear and it stuck so much into popular culture that you have throwaway line in Star Trek for example of "Nazi efficiency" and advance Eugenics work that is completed by the 1990s based on the idea the Nazi's were actually doing real research...

It's fascinating to look into but it's just plain implausible and really the rest of the world wasn't that far behind if they were at all anyway. (And ya, barring literally ASBs giving the Nazi's a leg up they simply weren't as advanced as they tried to say they were) And here in this TL there's simply no defense that they COULD have been that advanced. The evidence is right there up front and obvious. No flying saucers, no laser weapons, no free-energy or zero-point physics and no nuclear weapons so no point to base the speculation on. (Thanks CalBear, stuff like that was of great amusement to me growing up and now TTL's "I" is probably bored out of his mind... That's on you )

TTL neither the Nazi's nor the Japanese have the same luster as OTL and that's another thing I'd like to see explored someday.

Randy