The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

CalBear

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You can’t say it supports the right to self determination and then in the same breath have it prevent the liberal democratic states of Germany from unifying pick one or the other.
As for the ban on space you say how many otl nations can do it yes space is expensive but you also said they are all richer and they are more technologically advanced since they were able to put rail guns in space and bomb Stettin.
But technology is not static usually so eventually for economic resource extraction people would set up space colonies or just to deal with over crowding they’d make space colonies the A4 stop everyone except the Anglo nations from leaving earth which is a slow genocide. It’s basically eventually going to lead to all humans except those who are Anglo descendants to be left on what is effectively a reservation, I’m surprised India hasn’t allied with China to start a world war to stop the A4 from banning everyone else from space and dominating humanity forever.
India has pretty much the same perspective about megadeaths as the A4. They also find the Chinese to be somewhat worrisome, especially since the spend tons of money rescuing people trying to flee over the highest mountain rang, in the world, in winter, trying to get away,

I really don't go too far into defending the A4. The concept is, IMO relatively sound, but they are suffering from a a case of National PTSD, and have built their entire international policy around it. The worst part, and they don't really understand this, is that the minute they stop being the 900 pound gorilla all the death and destruction that they have suppressed is going to spring back into plase with a whiplash effect. All the leaders who want to get more power, or more money, or start their own empires are going to start back up and since the A4 has made it possible for countries to have fairly small armed forces overall, when the backlash happens a lots of countries are going to get rolled. It would likely take a couple centuries to really get past that, and it is hard to imagine that sort of time frame is going to be possible.

YMMV
 
India has pretty much the same perspective about megadeaths as the A4. They also find the Chinese to be somewhat worrisome, especially since the spend tons of money rescuing people trying to flee over the highest mountain rang, in the world, in winter, trying to get away,

I really don't go too far into defending the A4. The concept is, IMO relatively sound, but they are suffering from a a case of National PTSD, and have built their entire international policy around it. The worst part, and they don't really understand this, is that the minute they stop being the 900 pound gorilla all the death and destruction that they have suppressed is going to spring back into plase with a whiplash effect. All the leaders who want to get more power, or more money, or start their own empires are going to start back up and since the A4 has made it possible for countries to have fairly small armed forces overall, when the backlash happens a lots of countries are going to get rolled. It would likely take a couple centuries to really get past that, and it is hard to imagine that sort of time frame is going to be possible.

YMMV
Ironically the Cabal trying it might be the best way to ensure they do keep the lid on that long. Race based weapons may be impossible (according to current science there simply isn't enough difference between the various ethnic groups to target that well) but China can still deploy enough bio weapons of the normal kind to make a mess. Then the A4 has to extirpate another monster and India probably joins back up during the fight. That then results in "Fine if that's how you want it," and the A5 sits on the world forever and teaches their kids for generations to come that letting up cannot happen ever. It's only centuries later they realise the world's gone sane and let up at last.
 
I think "National PTSD" is a good way to describe the A4 peoples after the war. It was in many ways a modern multi-generational war. TTL's Gen X had to grow up with both parents and grandparents who fought in the same conflict. It doesn't shock me that that kind of mindset would persist until today, everybodies been traumatized into thinking that the German people are fundamentally agressive. And more to that, that they need to hold the world at gunpoint for the sake of the world.
 
Hopefully, ITTL Americans are far more aggressive in confronting their own systemic racism in the wake of the Nazis instead of remaining in some kind of 50s mentality when it comes to American exceptionalism like OTL.

I mean they're systemically racist against Germans so...

The worst part, and they don't really understand this, is that the minute they stop being the 900 pound gorilla all the death and destruction that they have suppressed is going to spring back into plase with a whiplash effect. All the leaders who want to get more power, or more money, or start their own empires are going to start back up and since the A4 has made it possible for countries to have fairly small armed forces overall, when the backlash happens a lots of countries are going to get rolled.

What do you think would be most likely to cause the A4 to rollback their global commitments? OTL, America scaled back its interventions after being publicly humiliated in Vietnam, but it doesn't seem like the A4 would ever get itself drawn into a war like that considering their willingness to use overwhelming force.
 

CalBear

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I mean they're systemically racist against Germans so...



What do you think would be most likely to cause the A4 to rollback their global commitments? OTL, America scaled back its interventions after being publicly humiliated in Vietnam, but it doesn't seem like the A4 would ever get itself drawn into a war like that considering their willingness to use overwhelming force.
Actually Germans are fine. It took a while but Germans no long have to hide their accents or tell people that they are Swiss or from Northern Italy to prevent being refused service or looked at like a worm in an apple. They are Bavarians (to used one of the statlets).

Germany? As a country dominating Central Europe?

Not so Much.


The primary threat to the A4 is simple.

Money.

The A4 maintains it position by spending heavily on "defense" to what is effectively a wartime level, even after reductions starting in the ATL 1990s. The A4 is betting big on resource extraction from space and more or less a complete changeover to solar power, including direct energy harvesting in orbit transmitted to receiving stations to supplement current renewables and nuclear power. Those come through and the eventual end will be due to some political crisis or another in one or more of the members, or possibly an economic collapse due to an geologic event/events (e.g. a massive earthquake involving the U.S. West Coast or some combination of massive natural disasters). a naturally evolving pandemic with a high R0 & equally high CF/R would also have the potential to upset the apple cary.

The extraction of resources from orbit fails and thing will get really interesting by ATL 2050 or so/ Same goes of the effort is too successful, say the effort finds a couple of asteroids containing 50,000 tons of Gold; the price of gold would fall off the table since the supply has increased by around 1/3, same goes for diamonds, other heavy metals, rare earths (which are actually elements and have nothing at all to do with being part of "the Earth"), you name it. There can be too much of a good thing.
 
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How ironic
The same A4 who beat a Imperial Japan and a Victorious Nazi Germany, as well as perhaps even Cabal China(Greater North Korea), can be destroyed by silly economics
 
How ironic
The same A4 who beat a Imperial Japan and a Victorious Nazi Germany, as well as perhaps even Cabal China(Greater North Korea), can be destroyed by silly economics

Bit same as OTL Soviet Union which basically was destroyed due poor economy after it had managed to stay around 70 years and defeated nazis, controlled Eastern Europe and was able to crush every mutiny until 1980's. And was yet able to develope nuclear weapon by end of 1940's despite poor beginning. Futhermore yet dissolved pretty peacefully despite being really brutal dictatorship.

But A4 is economically more flexible so it probably can adjust things already before things are falling apart. When it notices that asteroid mining is economically pointless and miltarisation of space is too expensive it probably just abandon asteroid mining and put lesser money to space militarisation. A4 has anyway put lesser money to nuclear system than OTL USA, Britain and France combined in OTL since not need for so many nukes and such advanced nuclear technology. And for USA not need for nuclear defense systems since no one is not expected launching nukes towards them.
 
Honestly, in terms of country from AANW being brought to OTL, the interesting one for me *isn't* the A4 being brought here, it is AANW India (which includes OTL Pakistan and Bangladesh). While I don't think AANW India built nukes/Space Rockets, my guess is that they could have them in *five* years or less and at that point be at the point where Justification would be needed for them to *not* be a OTL UN Security Council veto power. (Literally other than being able to set foot on the moon, TTL feels like somewhat of an India Wank.)

Note, the question here is whether OTL Chinese would decide to Nuke it immediately...
 
Honestly, in terms of country from AANW being brought to OTL, the interesting one for me *isn't* the A4 being brought here, it is AANW India (which includes OTL Pakistan and Bangladesh). While I don't think AANW India built nukes/Space Rockets, my guess is that they could have them in *five* years or less and at that point be at the point where Justification would be needed for them to *not* be a OTL UN Security Council veto power. (Literally other than being able to set foot on the moon, TTL feels like somewhat of an India Wank.)

Note, the question here is whether OTL Chinese would decide to Nuke it immediately...

I don't think that OTL China is going immediately nuke India. It is not such insane naiton which would launch nukes without thinking consequences. China has even told to its ally not use nukes on one certain current war. No one even somehow rational go to nuke another nuclear power unless want MAD situation.
 
South America is ATL's "Asian Tigers" Vietnam and The Philippines are "G-20" level economies. The really nasty wars of aggression/genocidal internal wars that mark, to this day, parts of Africa, aren't marking the Continent. Again pretty much across South America there are nothing but legit democracies, without the U.S propping up some Right Wing asshole because of the Cold War.
The Philippines being an equivalent of a G-20 level economy ITTL is so much better than OTL. I'm sure corruption in the government is still around but nowhere near as OTL.

Like my previous post, I'd imagine cities like Manila. Cebu, and Davao to becoming megapolis just like how New York City is portrayed with taller skyscrapers than OTL or even the Tokyo Bay area.
Hopefully, ITTL Americans are far more aggressive in confronting their own systemic racism in the wake of the Nazis instead of remaining in some kind of 50s mentality when it comes to American exceptionalism like OTL.
I do recall in the main story that an equivalent of the Civil Rights Act happened much earlier. I'm pretty sure Americans got knocked to their senses of no longer segregating African-Americans and other minorities especially once they realized the true horrors of the racist Nazi regime.
 
The Philippines being an equivalent of a G-20 level economy ITTL is so much better than OTL. I'm sure corruption in the government is still around but nowhere near as OTL.

Like my previous post, I'd imagine cities like Manila. Cebu, and Davao to becoming megapolis just like how New York City is portrayed with taller skyscrapers than OTL or even the Tokyo Bay area.

I do recall in the main story that an equivalent of the Civil Rights Act happened much earlier. I'm pretty sure Americans got knocked to their senses of no longer segregating African-Americans and other minorities especially once they realized the true horrors of the racist Nazi regime.

Didn't Civil Rights Act occured later altough it seems being just more prefect form which actually enforced racism go out of windows on structure of law enforcement and other such places?
 
The Philippines being an equivalent of a G-20 level economy ITTL is so much better than OTL. I'm sure corruption in the government is still around but nowhere near as OTL.

Like my previous post, I'd imagine cities like Manila. Cebu, and Davao to becoming megapolis just like how New York City is portrayed with taller skyscrapers than OTL or even the Tokyo Bay area.

I do recall in the main story that an equivalent of the Civil Rights Act happened much earlier. I'm pretty sure Americans got knocked to their senses of no longer segregating African-Americans and other minorities especially once they realized the true horrors of the racist Nazi regime.
Sort of wondering where Various Philippines cities are in the "New York to New Orleans axis" with Manhattan being a slice of bedrock that you can build 100 stories into the air and 5 below ground without much of a problem and New Orleans being "We have to look for specific sites that won't cause our sports stadium to sink into the swamp and we have to inter our dead above ground because otherwise swimming pools".
 

Fulton 44

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You can’t say it supports the right to self determination and then in the same breath have it prevent the liberal democratic states of Germany from unifying pick one or the other.
As for the ban on space you say how many otl nations can do it yes space is expensive but you also said they are all richer and they are more technologically advanced since they were able to put rail guns in space and bomb Stettin.
But technology is not static usually so eventually for economic resource extraction people would set up space colonies or just to deal with over crowding they’d make space colonies the A4 stop everyone except the Anglo nations from leaving earth which is a slow genocide. It’s basically eventually going to lead to all humans except those who are Anglo descendants to be left on what is effectively a reservation, I’m surprised India hasn’t allied with China to start a world war to stop the A4 from banning everyone else from space and dominating humanity forever.
The very popular arrangement under which Austria became independent, unified, and no longer occupied in the 1950's included provisions forbidding unification with Germany. It seems to have worked out very well for all concerned.
 

CalBear

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You can say the same thing about the U.S. a hundred times over OTL. It's realistic that they are this hypocritical when it comes to their own values, though I suppose many more will defend the A4's actions for the sake of "world security".


Hopefully, ITTL Americans are far more aggressive in confronting their own systemic racism in the wake of the Nazis instead of remaining in some kind of 50s mentality when it comes to American exceptionalism like OTL.


India is arguably in a better position to oppose the A4 on its own instead of allying with the Cabal (even with their true plans obscured, their nationalism and authoritarianism would clash with a democratic India). There's a reason why they were such a big contributor to the "Non-Aligned Movement" OTL.
The U.S. achieved the same level of true integration and reduction of bigotry ATL 1980 as existed in OTL 2015. It is, of course, not a color blind sociery, but any politician who even serious hints about "the Other" or starts spouting "dog whistle" slogans gets painted as a wanna be Nazi ( there is pretty much no more certain career killer (and not just as a politician) especially in the United States, than picking up that label).

There are still plenty of Antisemites, Bigots, and Racists in the U.S. but they are not running for office or appearing in Major Motion Pictures. Most of the folks who still hold racist ideas are older many were in school before the Final Phase began. Probably the one group that is most marginalized remain the First Nations People, especially those who still live on the Rez. Even here is more a matter of "out of sight, out of mind" neglect than malice, but it exists. Somewhat ironically, the loudest voices over the issue are not Federal office holders from the states with large "Native American" populations, but the Senators from Western Alaska.
 

CalBear

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Honestly, in terms of country from AANW being brought to OTL, the interesting one for me *isn't* the A4 being brought here, it is AANW India (which includes OTL Pakistan and Bangladesh). While I don't think AANW India built nukes/Space Rockets, my guess is that they could have them in *five* years or less and at that point be at the point where Justification would be needed for them to *not* be a OTL UN Security Council veto power. (Literally other than being able to set foot on the moon, TTL feels like somewhat of an India Wank.)

Note, the question here is whether OTL Chinese would decide to Nuke it immediately...
The Indians were actually the only country that had a very successful space program, including the first successful manned mission to "Far Side" of the Moon (ALT 1993)

It was the very real possibility of non-Indian/non-UN Orbital Weapons Platforms that caused the A4 Ban (ATL 2008). It is also worth mentioning that the A4 didn't enact the 65 mile ceiling on launches until it had sufficient assets to ensure that any requests for launches could be accommodated without delay.

In response to the A4's decree the iIndian's put a lot of research that would otherwise have been spent on a "space race" into underseas exploration. They are very successful with it, and are already more than breaking even on the projects. Indian satellite launches, including several robotic deep space probes, have been handled by A4 facilities, at about 1/3 the cost of using a chemically fueled rocket.

Where the A4 is going to face a decision gate is when/if Space Mining proves out and non A4 countries start send in requests for launcher slots around ATL 2030-2040.

The post war world was meant to be a slight "India wank". The region's potential is simply enormous if the very real conflicts between groups (and not just religious ones) could be managed. It is almost literally a potential functioning Liberal Democratic version of OTL PRC.
 
I'm pretty sure Americans got knocked to their senses of no longer segregating African-Americans and other minorities especially once they realized the true horrors of the racist Nazi regime.

Well OTL the civil rights movement had little to do with the publicization of the Holocaust. I see the claim that Nazi atrocities lessened the support for public racism in the West repeated often in various threads without any evidence to back it up. The civil rights movement was indeed affected by WWII, but primarily occurred due to internal factors that the war changed, namely that African Americans enjoyed some of the post-war prosperity and benefitted from visibility of participation during the war (the same was true for early feminist movements). The tragedies that aided the civil rights movement were the public victimizations of African Americans like Emmet Till, which was much more publicized in the US then the Holocaust was at the time.

Many of the infamous segregationists actually boasted of their wartime service fighting the Nazis. George Wallace responded to protesters calling him a Nazi by saying "I was killing fascists while you punks were in diapers", and indeed, he had served an an airman in WWII (though he served in the Pacific). Strom Thurmond, Edwin Walker, and Orval Faubus all served in Europe. To use non-American examples, Enoch Powell regretted surviving through WWII, and Ian Smith was fairly proud of his wartime service. None of them considered their variety of prejudice as comparable to the Holocaust, and conversely I don't think there were very many civil rights leaders who compared them to Hitler and the Nazis.

With that acknowledged and keeping in mind that the OTL civil rights movement had its roots decades prior to the First World War, I think civil rights would evolve concurrent with the resumption of hostilities in 1954 and would be greatly strengthened from the increased cooperation of the war (and on the flip side I think if the war hadn't resumed the situation would proceed largely as OTL). The Holocaust isn't much of a factor.
 
Didn't Civil Rights Act occured later altough it seems being just more prefect form which actually enforced racism go out of windows on structure of law enforcement and other such places?
So around the 1970s-80s for TTL?
Sort of wondering where Various Philippines cities are in the "New York to New Orleans axis" with Manhattan being a slice of bedrock that you can build 100 stories into the air and 5 below ground without much of a problem and New Orleans being "We have to look for specific sites that won't cause our sports stadium to sink into the swamp and we have to inter our dead above ground because otherwise swimming pools".
Manila, Cebu, and Davao are right by a bay. Parts of Cebu in OTL are actually reclaimed but that's for the outer areas of the city.

Here's a pic for reference:
88d4daaacbb7cda93f16fa82e08997fa.jpg

Manila
260252097_10165923381785581_3377165083811372875_n-jpg.2416735

Cebu
Aerial+Photo+of+Davao+City.jpg

Davao
The U.S. achieved the same level of true integration and reduction of bigotry ATL 1980 as existed in OTL 2015. It is, of course, not a color blind sociery, but any politician who even serious hints about "the Other" or starts spouting "dog whistle" slogans gets painted as a wanna be Nazi ( there is pretty much no more certain career killer (and not just as a politician) especially in the United States, than picking up that label).

There are still plenty of Antisemites, Bigots, and Racists in the U.S. but they are not running for office or appearing in Major Motion Pictures. Most of the folks who still hold racist ideas are older many were in school before the Final Phase began. Probably the one group that is most marginalized remain the First Nations People, especially those who still live on the Rez. Even here is more a matter of "out of sight, out of mind" neglect than malice, but it exists. Somewhat ironically, the loudest voices over the issue are not Federal office holders from the states with large "Native American" populations, but the Senators from Western Alaska.
I guess this American society would not elect any anti-semites, bigots, and racists after seeing what the Nazis did to Europe.
With that acknowledged and keeping in mind that the OTL civil rights movement had its roots decades prior to the First World War, I think civil rights would evolve concurrent with the resumption of hostilities in 1954 and would be greatly strengthened from the increased cooperation of the war (and on the flip side I think if the war hadn't resumed the situation would proceed largely as OTL). The Holocaust isn't much of a factor.
Now that would be interesting if the alternate Civil Rights occurred at the same phase as the Warm War period.
 
So how different are the Millennials and the Gen Z's in this timeline? Are they similar to OTL's in outlook and beliefs or are they more cynical and jaded than OTL? How does Gen Z and Gen Y view the war, considering they were never around when it happened?
 
From the sounds of things, they've been brought up to believe that the German people have lost their right to self determination as an ethicity, and so largely support the destruction of stettin.
 
So how different are the Millennials and the Gen Z's in this timeline? Are they similar to OTL's in outlook and beliefs or are they more cynical and jaded than OTL? How does Gen Z and Gen Y view the war, considering they were never around when it happened?
From the sounds of things, they've been brought up to believe that the German people have lost their right to self determination as an ethicity, and so largely support the destruction of stettin.
They would see anything German has hostile the same way the Axis and the Soviets are viewed.

As for the destruction of Stettin, they were actually divided on the issue. Many saw it as an overkill.
 
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