The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

Darkest? Am I understanding correctly that you consider AANW to be darker than Man in the High Castle (to pick one Axis complete Victory alternate TL)?
I'd chose the A4 world over The Man in the High Castle anytime. At least in the A4 world, democracy and human rights are promoted. Of course, with the specter of "be good or else."
 
I'd chose the A4 world over The Man in the High Castle anytime. At least in the A4 world, democracy and human rights are promoted. Of course, with the specter of "be good or else."
The A4 is like the One Earth Regime from Injustice seem like a model of democracy with compassionate qualities while tolerated to be to prejudice the "Nazis" Joker after what they did to Europe Lois and the unborn child for turning Superman turning into the vile man he is now in grimdark alt-WW2 and never ever for "the New Homeland" to be reunite maintaining law and order via strict and harsh rules.

While the One Earth Regime is cool and fiction that is never taken too seriously while the A4 Nazi 2.0 in democracy under Calbear Thought having the unfair treatment toward non-A4 members over "no-allowed going to space" only A4 property you weakling we are Anglo supremacy looking like nanny own the planet and it is hypocritical for happy-go-lucky using orbital bombardment on Stettin as form of genocide toward the "Nazis" as the crime against humanity by the OTL's perspective even the "Nazis" wanted to end the occupation to having a redemption arc, making them too unsympathetic to my own taste.

Looks the AANW is horrific well-written mostly WW2; it is simply the post-war timeline that is the main offender.
 
Thats funny, considering I'v criticized how the war went before but I've always considered the post-war very solid and honestly the most interesting part of the timeline for me
I guess people just find that unbelievable that fighting the Nazis for 20+ years would make a military alliance like NATO permanent and the Allies into a Knight Templar figure that, shocker, is discriminatory towards germans
 
Thats funny, considering I'v criticized how the war went before but I've always considered the post-war very solid and honestly the most interesting part of the timeline for me
I guess people just find that unbelievable that fighting the Nazis for 20+ years would make a military alliance like NATO permanent and the Allies into a Knight Templar figure that, shocker, is discriminatory towards germans
My sentiments are in line with yours idk what's up with everyone else lmao
 

Kinmanster

Banned
Thats funny, considering I'v criticized how the war went before but I've always considered the post-war very solid and honestly the most interesting part of the timeline for me
I guess people just find that unbelievable that fighting the Nazis for 20+ years would make a military alliance like NATO permanent and the Allies into a Knight Templar figure that, shocker, is discriminatory towards germans
Then disliking Germans is not the reason people think the A4 are trash who deserve an alien invasion to wipe them out. Maybe bombing Stettin is too much maybe not. But what would really make people hate them is them denying space access to the rest of the world. They maintain a nuclear monopoly except for India. But they invade and destroy any attempt of other nations to go into space and expand or get resources they want to monopolize all of it. Other nations would have a good reason to hate them more than the Nazis. Nazis oppressed Europe and caused it to go into ruin but they aren’t dominating Asia, Africa, and South America and stopping them from getting freedom now.
 
Then disliking Germans is not the reason people think the A4 are trash who deserve an alien invasion to wipe them out. Maybe bombing Stettin is too much maybe not. But what would really make people hate them is them denying space access to the rest of the world. They maintain a nuclear monopoly except for India. But they invade and destroy any attempt of other nations to go into space and expand or get resources they want to monopolize all of it. Other nations would have a good reason to hate them more than the Nazis. Nazis oppressed Europe and caused it to go into ruin but they aren’t dominating Asia, Africa, and South America and stopping them from getting freedom now.
Im not saying people are wrong to hate the A4, I myself am from South America so Im really not happy with their actions either
Im just saying narratively I dont have a issue with them, they make sense to me and make this TL unique even if I wouldnt want them to be around ever
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
I'd chose the A4 world over The Man in the High Castle anytime. At least in the A4 world, democracy and human rights are promoted. Of course, with the specter of "be good or else."
Actually it's closer to "don't be evil murderous bastards", bit the point stands.
The A4 is like the One Earth Regime from Injustice seem like a model of democracy with compassionate qualities while tolerated to be to prejudice the "Nazis" Joker after what they did to Europe Lois and the unborn child for turning Superman turning into the vile man he is now in grimdark alt-WW2 and never ever for "the New Homeland" to be reunite maintaining law and order via strict and harsh rules.

While the One Earth Regime is cool and fiction that is never taken too seriously while the A4 Nazi 2.0 in democracy under Calbear Thought having the unfair treatment toward non-A4 members over "no-allowed going to space" only A4 property you weakling we are Anglo supremacy looking like nanny own the planet and it is hypocritical for happy-go-lucky using orbital bombardment on Stettin as form of genocide toward the "Nazis" as the crime against humanity by the OTL's perspective even the "Nazis" wanted to end the occupation to having a redemption arc, making them too unsympathetic to my own taste.

Looks the AANW is horrific well-written mostly WW2; it is simply the post-war timeline that is the main offender.
The post-war timeline is SUPPOSED to be at least somewhat uncomfortable. There were, IMO, two basic paths I could have followed when I agreed to do the postscripts (adter warning one and all that they would not be anywhere close to the same degree of researched and structuted as the mail T/L).

One was "Ya. we won! Free snacks $0.25 hotdogs for all!" world, where with the Nazi's very much tossed onto the ash heap of History, and Soviet Union removed from the fomenting of revolution business Earth has a Star Trek-esque Golden Age, or something close to it. That seemed just plain old wrong. The extended war was a nightmare to top nightmares, and even the Good Guys had "dome things that were best not talked about". Turning that world into a mix of Leave it to Beaver and early Beach Boys songs simply didn't work for me (I actually wrote about five years of that version before I hot "don't save" and started over).

Instead I went with the other reasonable version (the third version, where it turns into a free for all with NBC weapons used by everyone from the local dogcatcher on up simply didn't appeal to me) one where things are just not quite the same as OTL. The WAllies are still pretty much the same, but the extra years of war, the way that Japan was defeated, and the experiences of far too many people, had created a more hardened version of OTL. ATL, the A4 has taken "Never Again" to be their axiom and they are not, unfortunately, unwilling to break more than a few eggs to make it happen.

Germany was seen as the root of all the problems in Europe over the last century, having either started or cheerleaded the last four serious European Wars, starting in 1866. How do you prevent that from happening again? You prevent Germany from recoalescing, recreate the smaller states/principalities that existed before the Prussian Unification efforts, and you also cut up Prussia, because if Germany was the problem that Prussia was GERMANY'S problem. You wind up with a group of small states, none of the are really tiny, mostly they are the population of The Republic of Ireland, you allow the new states to reindustrialize, giving them a chance to prosper long term. You, however, keep an occupation force in place, learning (incorrectly?) from what happened after Versailles (it is also worth considering that, IOTL, The Soviets effectively maintained a full blown Occupation Force in the DDR until the Wall Fell, with the DDR's political leadership being subject to approval by the USSR, so the A4 approach is not really that far out of line, it is simply more open and spelled out). The result is a group of countries that can be as successful as Belgium or the Netherlands from OTL over the medium to long term.

The A4 also decided that it had learned all it needed to about countries that broke international treaties. You let someone break a treaty with you and they simply won't stop, and will keep it up, keep trying to do more and more, until you wind up having to participate in the killing of another couple hundred million people. Not happening,. Same goes for Genocide; gotta nip that in the bud straight out of the gate, no exceptions, Having been on the delivery side of nuclear attacks, you decide that you have no interest in being on the receiving side. From there you look at the danger of attacks from orbit, not acceptable. So you say no one can be in a position to try it. You can do all the science you want, we will put your research platforms up in orbit for less that it will cost you to do it yourself (once we are sure that they are research platforms and not weapons systems). Yes, we are being unfair, see not about killing 200,000,000 people.

The A4 is about the the best case for a realistic post major WMD exchange world where the democracies win. It isn't ideal, in fact in a lot of ways it rather sucks, even for citizens of the A4, who pay through the nose for taxes to support a military loaded to the gills with weapons everyone and the cousin Bob prays never get used.

The A4 are pretty much self righteous jerks, but they also don't go around killing people enmasse on an ongoing basis. Stettin was terrible. Compare it to some of the things that have happened IOTL,

The A4 ATL is far from perfect, even far from really good. It is, IMO, reasonable possible.
 

CalBear

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Then disliking Germans is not the reason people think the A4 are trash who deserve an alien invasion to wipe them out. Maybe bombing Stettin is too much maybe not. But what would really make people hate them is them denying space access to the rest of the world. They maintain a nuclear monopoly except for India. But they invade and destroy any attempt of other nations to go into space and expand or get resources they want to monopolize all of it. Other nations would have a good reason to hate them more than the Nazis. Nazis oppressed Europe and caused it to go into ruin but they aren’t dominating Asia, Africa, and South America and stopping them from getting freedom now.
The A4 hasn't had to invade to enforce the space ban. Never had to.

Also, ATL, outside of India and the A4 countries, how many space programs would you really find? For that matter IOTL, how many purely civilian space programs exist, or existed 40 years after the end of WW II? (Hint: the number is less than 1)

It is interesting that some readers interpret the A4 as being a great oppressor of freedom.

It oppresses the freedom commit genocide.

It oppresses the waging of wars of aggression.

It oppressing German Reunification. However, very one of the statelets have a freely elected liberal democratic form of government. It doesn't oppress free elections (or, for that matter, dictatorships as long as the color inside the lines). It fully supported Self determination, even when the results were not what the individual A4 members wanted something different (the vote on Israel being a prime example).

South America is ATL's "Asian Tigers" Vietnam and The Philippines are "G-20" level economies. The really nasty wars of aggression/genocidal internal wars that mark, to this day, parts of Africa, aren't marking the Continent. Again pretty much across South America there are nothing but legit democracies, without the U.S propping up some Right Wing asshole because of the Cold War.

The A4 is anything but perfect, as noted, self righteous assholes is a good description, but provided there isn't a huge butcher's bill, what countries you is their business.
 

Kinmanster

Banned
The A4 hasn't had to invade to enforce the space ban. Never had to.

Also, ATL, outside of India and the A4 countries, how many space programs would you really find? For that matter IOTL, how many purely civilian space programs exist, or existed 40 years after the end of WW II? (Hint: the number is less than 1)

It is interesting that some readers interpret the A4 as being a great oppressor of freedom.

It oppresses the freedom commit genocide.

It oppresses the waging of wars of aggression.

It oppressing German Reunification. However, very one of the statelets have a freely elected liberal democratic form of government. It doesn't oppress free elections (or, for that matter, dictatorships as long as the color inside the lines). It fully supported Self determination, even when the results were not what the individual A4 members wanted something different (the vote on Israel being a prime example).

South America is ATL's "Asian Tigers" Vietnam and The Philippines are "G-20" level economies. The really nasty wars of aggression/genocidal internal wars that mark, to this day, parts of Africa, aren't marking the Continent. Again pretty much across South America there are nothing but legit democracies, without the U.S propping up some Right Wing asshole because of the Cold War.

The A4 is anything but perfect, as noted, self righteous assholes is a good description, but provided there isn't a huge butcher's bill, what countries you is their business.
You can’t say it supports the right to self determination and then in the same breath have it prevent the liberal democratic states of Germany from unifying pick one or the other.
As for the ban on space you say how many otl nations can do it yes space is expensive but you also said they are all richer and they are more technologically advanced since they were able to put rail guns in space and bomb Stettin.
But technology is not static usually so eventually for economic resource extraction people would set up space colonies or just to deal with over crowding they’d make space colonies the A4 stop everyone except the Anglo nations from leaving earth which is a slow genocide. It’s basically eventually going to lead to all humans except those who are Anglo descendants to be left on what is effectively a reservation, I’m surprised India hasn’t allied with China to start a world war to stop the A4 from banning everyone else from space and dominating humanity forever.
 
Our world is "fortunate" that WWII lasted only 6 years compared to 20 years of TTL. Because of that, we in OTL have different mindsets.

I guess people just find that unbelievable that fighting the Nazis for 20+ years

From the A4's perspective it technically wasn't 20 years, there was a lull in the fighting for a few years until hostilities resumed in force in 1954. Additionally, prior to the resumption of hostilities, the A4 countries were primarily focused on fighting the Japanese.

The A4 is about the the best case for a realistic post major WMD exchange world where the democracies win.

I agree.

The A4 ATL is far from perfect, even far from really good. It is, IMO, reasonable possible.

Possible, yes, but personally I find it unlikely. I think I'll just leave it at that because really, the only thing I'd be doing is pointing out the many horrible and hypocritical things America/NATO/the West have done OTL, and this is your story and you're free to write the kind of world you think would fit and I'm certainly not the arbiter of perfect plausibility.
 
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You know the saying the bigger they are the harder they fall. So are the A4, they Investment in asteroid mining will not wield any significant results in the future, just lots of money spend and an pissed of population at high taxes and wasted money. The sittuation is not sustainable, they can other loose down in the and at least allow allied and democratic states în to the fold or mantain the current state of affairs.

The fact is other nations will want to reach space for research, prestige and security reasons, but they are stopped by what is basically an world order mantained by four anglo nations. In the future as the sittuation becomes unstable and the A4 double down on the insanity we might see India leading a global coalition to stop the A4, first it may begin with minor sanctions and from there depending on how insane the A4 leadership is a limited war. It would be an interesting premise to read India being the hero leading the fight to Free humanity.
 
I really doubt India will side with chinese nazis who hate them in a war of nuclear extermination against the A4 over space rights that according to you gives no profit to the A4 anyway and I also doubt the population of the A4 countries will rebel over space taxes on asteroid mining when they are the overlords of the world with the best living standards and, according to you, this world order benefits them by giving them the entire universe while everybody else has to content themselves with Earth
Really thats just wishful thinking
 
Considering that the A4 also are more than happy to send other nations stuff into space at a cheap rate with their Mass Drivers, I don’t think space is as closed off as people seem to think.
 
You can’t say it supports the right to self determination and then in the same breath have it prevent the liberal democratic states of Germany from unifying pick one or the other.
You can say the same thing about the U.S. a hundred times over OTL. It's realistic that they are this hypocritical when it comes to their own values, though I suppose many more will defend the A4's actions for the sake of "world security".

Possible, yes, but personally I find it unlikely. I think I'll just leave it at that because really, the only thing I'd be doing is pointing out the many horrible and hypocritical things America/NATO/the West have done OTL, and this is your story and you're free to write the kind of world you think would fit and I'm certainly not the arbiter of perfect plausibility.
Hopefully, ITTL Americans are far more aggressive in confronting their own systemic racism in the wake of the Nazis instead of remaining in some kind of 50s mentality when it comes to American exceptionalism like OTL.

I really doubt India will side with chinese nazis
India is arguably in a better position to oppose the A4 on its own instead of allying with the Cabal (even with their true plans obscured, their nationalism and authoritarianism would clash with a democratic India). There's a reason why they were such a big contributor to the "Non-Aligned Movement" OTL.
 
Considering that the A4 also are more than happy to send other nations stuff into space at a cheap rate with their Mass Drivers, I don’t think space is as closed off as people seem to think.
That's still not really an excuse "Go into space and we'll exterminate you" doesn't become justified if you add "but we'll give you a discount" at the end. It's still a racket.
 

Kinmanster

Banned
That's still not really an excuse "Go into space and we'll exterminate you" doesn't become justified if you add "but we'll give you a discount" at the end. It's still a racket.
Also their stated purpose of preventing others from going to space is to stop other nations from having orbital weapons. But if gundam taught me anything with all the colony drops is once you are in space if you can strap engines on something you have an orbital weapon. So they won’t let other nations put in a city in space.
 

Kinmanster

Banned
You can say the same thing about the U.S. a hundred times over OTL. It's realistic that they are this hypocritical when it comes to their own values, though I suppose many more will defend the A4's actions for the sake of "world security".


Hopefully, ITTL Americans are far more aggressive in confronting their own systemic racism in the wake of the Nazis instead of remaining in some kind of 50s mentality when it comes to American exceptionalism like OTL.


India is arguably in a better position to oppose the A4 on its own instead of allying with the Cabal (even with their true plans obscured, their nationalism and authoritarianism would clash with a democratic India). There's a reason why they were such a big contributor to the "Non-Aligned Movement" OTL.
Actually if you think about it a rational India would demand access to space or help the Chinese with world war 3. Because right now they and the A4 have MAD with each other both are nuclear powers. But the thing is nukes can’t hit targets in space right now. Let’s say the A4 builds O’Neil cylinder colonies that could hold 1 million people. What if the build 100 of them what if they had 1000. Eventually since you can artificially expand the carrying capacity of a region the space population will exceed the ones on earth. If hypothetically 90 percent of the A4 is in space and can’t be touched by nukes well then that gets rid of MAD nuclear war can be won. Since it would be no longer mutually assured destruction only one side would be destroyed while the other is merely scratched or bruised. Any defense analysts would be screaming to high heaven to prevent that, especially India who would not want to be in a position of unequal power where they are inferior especially towards a nation with an Anglo culture the group that colonized and oppressed them.
 
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