The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

[Bookmark1995]

When his defense lawyers so up drunk and are fired or join with the prosecutor lawyers because they can't even bring themselves to defend his actions, its kind of hard to do.

When you put it like that, being a public defender for the TTL war crimes trials must be the most psychologically debilitating job imaginable.

OTL lawyers have to put up with a lot of stress, both from their own clients and in the courtroom. TTL, a public defender's job is protecting someone who behaved a like a serial killer. They aren't just guilty of genocidal massacres, but sadistically tormenting others on a systematic level.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The defense...

The defense....

The defense rests.

The only argument would be to told his client would be worse in an Eastern European prison instead of being executed. That, or kneeling in front of the court, imploring for mercy. It might be like this case.

 

[Father Maryland]

Even the "monsters" get Constitutional rights.

I would generally agree. My point was that the lawyer in question went far beyond merely competently and energentically defending the monsters he called clients. Instead he seemed to be ardently on their side and sincerely believed they had done nothing worth punishment. In particular that meant holocaust deniers, Klaus fucking Barbie, and literally Pol Goddamned Pot. When said lawyer went missing his own friends and confidants just kind of assumed he was off helping the Khmer Rouge.

 

[Father Maryland]

So did the Alaska and Montana classes get built?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

So did the Alaska and Montana classes get built?

Yes that is mentioned as having happened, though exactly how many is unstated, presumably all 5 and 6 planned rather than 0 and 2.5 as OTL

 

[SsgtC]

So did the Alaska and Montana classes get built?

Yup, all of em. Though I believe Guam ate a missile/guided bomb and sank.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I bet World War I movies greatly exaggerate the crimes of the Germans and the flaws of the Kaiser.

They emphasize several things:

1. The mistreatment of the Belgians.

2. The use of chemical weapons.

3. The attack on the Lusitania as a crazed murder of innocent civilians.

 

[Lalli]

I bet World War I movies greatly exaggerate the crimes of the Germans and the flaws of the Kaiser.

They emphasize several things:

1. The mistreatment of the Belgians.

2. The use of chemical weapons.

3. The attack on the Lusitania as a crazed murder of innocent civilians.

Very probable. WW1 movies are going show Germans in very bad light. And surely most of people are arguing that Treaty of Versailles wasn't harsh enough.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Very probable. WW1 movies are going show Germans in very bad light. And surely most of people are arguing that Treaty of Versailles wasn't harsh enough.

On the other hand, some people might villainize the people who wrote the treaty as well as the isolationist politicians who kept America out of the league.

I predict a movie portraying Woodrow Wilson as this shining beacon and defender of international justice, glossing over his many, many flaws as a person.

 

[Nekronion]

Which non-German countries are willing to trade with the German statelets (Apart from Switzerland,Iberians I guess) ?

What was the fate of the German minorities in Slesvig, South Tyrol and Eupen-Malmedy?

Also how easy (and safe) is it for Germans to travel abroad?

 

[sparkptz]

I've seen quite a few comments here (+ previous thread) about how Germany's landscape has been so thoroughly battered and poisoned that its environment is a mess even 50 years later and indeed "may never recover". I think this in the short term this is correct, large parts of Germany in 1965 will probably look like the surface of the moon, and be utterly uninhabitable for the forseeable future. Longer term, however, this could be the best thing to happen to the local environments, if our admittedly limited experience with involuntary parks* such as the OTL Chernobyl Exclusion Zone (or even the Korean DMZ) is to be followed - over the medium term (i.e. a few generations), the short-term massive damage to the local ecology is, ironically, more than made up by the complete lack of human presence. Even the Verdun battlefield, which was as utterly destroyed as any place on Earth can be, and will be off-limits for hundreds of years, looks like this today:

Which is not exactly barren wasteland.

The A4 stance towards any sort of real economic development and reindustrialisation in Germany, probably helps. I would not be at all surprised if, by the 2010s, we were seeing the early stages of natural reforestation in large parts of Germany and especially in the exclusion zones, despite the toxins, pathogens, unexploded bombs, and other assorted nasties that make them quite lethal to higher forms of life. A cliche, but Nature's resillience is not to be underestimated when left alone to do its thing.

*A particularly apt term in this case as it was originally coined as a description for parts of the natural world that had either been so messed up or had lost all value to human exploitation and were left to grow wild again. Sterling's original prediction was that these places would be overrun with weeds and have a highly "unnatural" ecology. Instead what we've observed is that these places more or less revert to their pre-human ecological state within a generation or so.

 

[JamesHunter]

I've seen quite a few comments here (+ previous thread) about how Germany's landscape has been so thoroughly battered and poisoned that its environment is a mess even 50 years later and indeed "may never recover". I think this in the short term this is correct, large parts of Germany in 1965 will probably look like the surface of the moon, and be utterly uninhabitable for the forseeable future. Longer term, however, this could be the best thing to happen to the local environments, if our admittedly limited experience with involuntary parks* such as the OTL Chernobyl Exclusion Zone (or even the Korean DMZ) is to be followed - over the medium term (i.e. a few generations), the short-term massive damage to the local ecology is, ironically, more than made up by the complete lack of human presence. Even the Verdun battlefield, which was as utterly destroyed as any place on Earth can be, and will be off-limits for hundreds of years, looks like this today:

Which is not exactly barren wasteland.

The A4 stance towards any sort of real economic development and reindustrialisation in Germany, probably helps. I would not be at all surprised if, by the 2010s, we were seeing the early stages of natural reforestation in large parts of Germany and especially in the exclusion zones, despite the toxins, pathogens, unexploded bombs, and other assorted nasties that make them quite lethal to higher forms of life. A cliche, but Nature's resillience is not to be underestimated when left alone to do its thing.

*A particularly apt term in this case as it was originally coined as a description for parts of the natural world that had either been so messed up or had lost all value to human exploitation and were left to grow wild again. Sterling's original prediction was that these places would be overrun with weeds and have a highly "unnatural" ecology. Instead what we've observed is that these places more or less revert to their pre-human ecological state within a generation or so.

To be fair Verdun has reverted to anything but nature. 95% of plants still die due to arsenic in the soil and cleaning out Anthrax island literally required stripping off metres of top soil.

The DMZ is a special case as there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it except mines and evil.

Its not so much they can't fix Germany as it would be the work of decades and vast amounts of resources and capital. With most of Eurasia west of the Ural's wreaked, the home of them what did it will get short shift for a very long time to come.

 

[sparkptz]

To be fair Verdun has reverted to anything but nature. 95% of plants still die due to arsenic in the soil and cleaning out Anthrax island literally required stripping off metres of top soil.

The DMZ is a special case as there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it except mines and evil.

Its not so much they can't fix Germany as it would be the work of decades and vast amounts of resources and capital. With most of Eurasia west of the Ural's wreaked, the home of them what did it will get short shift for a very long time to come.

Oh any ecology would be fragile at best, and be prone to collapse at even very mild disturbance. But in general, experience with these examples (Chernobyl probably being the best one) suggests we vastly underrate Nature's ability to reclaim the environment when left alone for long enough.

Mind you, trees and plants returning to the no-go parts of Germany most definitely does not mean the area is inhabitable.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I've seen quite a few comments here (+ previous thread) about how Germany's landscape has been so thoroughly battered and poisoned that its environment is a mess even 50 years later and indeed "may never recover". I think this in the short term this is correct, large parts of Germany in 1965 will probably look like the surface of the moon, and be utterly uninhabitable for the forseeable future. Longer term, however, this could be the best thing to happen to the local environments, if our admittedly limited experience with involuntary parks* such as the OTL Chernobyl Exclusion Zone (or even the Korean DMZ) is to be followed - over the medium term (i.e. a few generations), the short-term massive damage to the local ecology is, ironically, more than made up by the complete lack of human presence. Even the Verdun battlefield, which was as utterly destroyed as any place on Earth can be, and will be off-limits for hundreds of years, looks like this today:

Which is not exactly barren wasteland.

The A4 stance towards any sort of real economic development and reindustrialisation in Germany, probably helps. I would not be at all surprised if, by the 2010s, we were seeing the early stages of natural reforestation in large parts of Germany and especially in the exclusion zones, despite the toxins, pathogens, unexploded bombs, and other assorted nasties that make them quite lethal to higher forms of life. A cliche, but Nature's resillience is not to be underestimated when left alone to do its thing.

*A particularly apt term in this case as it was originally coined as a description for parts of the natural world that had either been so messed up or had lost all value to human exploitation and were left to grow wild again. Sterling's original prediction was that these places would be overrun with weeds and have a highly "unnatural" ecology. Instead what we've observed is that these places more or less revert to their pre-human ecological state within a generation or so.

Yeah, but while wildlife may flourish there, those places are still off limits for human settlement, and the use of those wretched biological weapons can still have a severe impact on the creatures there.

 

[Jim Smitty]

Calbear has stated that American Bison has been released into Germany as part of an effort to undue the damage of the war.

However I think the A4 want Berlin and IIRC Nuremberg to be reminders to everyone what happens when you cross that line. Paris could be rebuilt but the amount of money needed simply isn't there. The A4 aren't paying for it, and the French simply don't have it in them as they have more pressing needs than rebuilding Paris. If the A4 start mining the sky and bring back the resources of the Asteroid Belt back to earth they might have enough money to do it.

I personally assume most of Europe by 2019 has been rebuilt, but it has really lost its old world favor that we in OTL know it for. Instead it would be simple and dull buildings. No one would be travelling to Europe to see the history or the red light district in Amsterdam. Well I think Italy and parts of Austria were spared, but Europe as we know it here in OTL is largely a thing of the past.

 

[Lalli]

I personally assume most of Europe by 2019 has been rebuilt, but it has really lost its old world favor that we in OTL know it for. Instead it would be simple and dull buildings. No one would be travelling to Europe to see the history or the red light district in Amsterdam. Well I think Italy and parts of Austria were spared, but Europe as we know it here in OTL is largely a thing of the past.

In Central and East Europe is not surely anything for tourists. German cities are ruined and there is not resources and will make for that anything. And Germany hardly is very favorable tourist destination. And old cities in Russia basically are not anymore. Theorically these can be re-built but it is very expensive and difficult. And there hardly is even enough of population to re-poplate them anyway. Only places where is something watching to tourists are Iberia, Italy, United Kingdom, Ireland, possibility parts of Benelux and Nordic countries.

 

[Wendell]

I wonder what happen to the swastika forest in this timeline.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Calbear has stated that American Bison has been released into Germany as part of an effort to undue the damage of the war.

However I think the A4 want Berlin and IIRC Nuremberg to be reminders to everyone what happens when you cross that line. Paris could be rebuilt but the amount of money needed simply isn't there. The A4 aren't paying for it, and the French simply don't have it in them as they have more pressing needs than rebuilding Paris. If the A4 start mining the sky and bring back the resources of the Asteroid Belt back to earth they might have enough money to do it.

I personally assume most of Europe by 2019 has been rebuilt, but it has really lost its old world favor that we in OTL know it for. Instead it would be simple and dull buildings. No one would be travelling to Europe to see the history or the red light district in Amsterdam. Well I think Italy and parts of Austria were spared, but Europe as we know it here in OTL is largely a thing of the past.

The issue is that the Germans didn't just trash France: they utterly eviscerated it.

They didn't just bomb cities and massacre people: they unleashed plagues, destroyed monuments, trashed vital infrastructure, and poisoned wells.

The last one might well be seen as a bitter, bitter irony: they basically committed the same crime Jews had been accused of doing for centuries.

The devastation of France was so thorough, and the French people so deprived, that billions had to be spent just to give the French people a decent standard living alone. In such horrific conditions, rebuilding Paris was very much a money sink.

OTL Warsaw was so trashed, that to this day, some monuments still haven't been rebuilt. TTL, the Germans had more time to refine their monstrous abilities.

In Central and East Europe is not surely anything for tourists. German cities are ruined and there is not resources and will make for that anything. And Germany hardly is very favorable tourist destination. And old cities in Russia basically are not anymore. Theorically these can be re-built but it is very expensive and difficult. And there hardly is even enough of population to re-poplate them anyway. Only places where is something watching to tourists are Iberia, Italy, United Kingdom, Ireland, possibility parts of Benelux and Nordic countries.

Eastern Europe underwent monstrous exploitation. For people living there, something as simple as salt and pepper might be valued luxuries. Rebuilding the Winter Palace is simply not a priority.

 

[JamesHunter]

I wonder what happen to the swastika forest in this timeline.

Incineration with extreme prejudice.

 

[Archangel]

Cities can be rebuilt by stages. Firstly, ports, roads and railroad access (and airports), then a neighbourhood at a time. When original materials are not available, modern material equivalents can be used. This is something that takes decades, but it can be done by countries that are recovering like France decades after the war.