The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

Perhaps this is just my squishy-liberal bias showing, but 'no ethnic-supremacist states, Or Else' is, if anything, a steadfast defense of freedom, not a lack of it [1], at least to people who rightly understand that my freedom to throw a punch ends where your nose begins.

What I'm curious about is where the fracture points in the system are. If the A4 steadfastly refused to let India into the club, it would be a genuine conflict of one good against another good (as opposed to a conflict of either or both against Cabalist China). That utopian future requires, at least in the broad outline, that either the A4 themselves never become corrupted, or that other nations eventually accede to A(n) status themselves.

Part of what interests me about a Cabal Conflict is the aftermath; if India ends up playing a major part, taking major casualties and saving the human race as we know it, and the A4 still doesn't let them join the club? Then that's proof that the A4's world system can't be permitted to continue without reform. But if the aftermath of a Cabal Conflict shows that Korea and India can accede to the A4, it proves that the system can be a true world government; by, for, and of the people of the world, equally.

[1] except for the would-be genocidaires, which I'm fine with, pace Karl Popper. Nazi punks fuck off.
 
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I mean, the nerve attack on Brazil would be terrible... But the main victim would be the german brazilians.

Brazil got a huge german minority, to the point that we had to "evacuate" (forcefully remove) hundreds of thousands of people from the coast since the government was paranoid they would inform axis submarines. The city of Blumenau was divided into smaller cities and the germans had to hold a special document to move freely inside it. We also had internment camps for pro axis people. Assuming this nerve gas attack happened, you would see the rest of the brazilian population going full kristallnacht on the german-brazilians, it would be even worse than the zoot suit riots on the US because the army units (composed at this time of pro US corrupt far right demagogues) might HELP to crush the germans...
Reading about Brazil and Nazism is so...weird.

Vargas seemed to be pro-Nazi and later anti-Nazi.
 
Reading about Brazil and Nazism is so...weird.

Vargas seemed to be pro-Nazi and later anti-Nazi.
Personally he hated nazis, but then the "pragmatic equal distance" enters the scene. The 1930s was the first time in decades where you had a active battle for economic influence in latim america (you did had one between the UK and the USA on earlier decades, but nothing like the 1930s). So he kept the american and the german investiment coming, as he noticed that both sides would keep burning money there to prevent the other from getting a edge.

Eventually, it became impossible for Germany to keep the balance in Brazil because of the war, so the US proposed to buy and build all the german projects in Brazil and to buy all the agricultural surplus until the end of the war, so Brazil was bought into the allies.
 
Personally he hated nazis, but then the "pragmatic equal distance" enters the scene. The 1930s was the first time in decades where you had a active battle for economic influence in latim america (you did had one between the UK and the USA on earlier decades, but nothing like the 1930s). So he kept the american and the german investiment coming, as he noticed that both sides would keep burning money there to prevent the other from getting a edge.

Eventually, it became impossible for Germany to keep the balance in Brazil because of the war, so the US proposed to buy and build all the german projects in Brazil and to buy all the agricultural surplus until the end of the war, so Brazil was bought into the allies.
So Vargas played both sides, and his relationship with Nazis was self-interest?


Was he anti Semitic?
 
So Vargas played both sides, and his relationship with Nazis was self-interest?


Was he anti Semitic?
He did, and was a master at it.

In one hand Vargas didn't promoted anti semitic policies, in other side he turned a blind eye to anti semitic and pro axis alfandega employes denying visas to jewish immigrants until he joined the allies and fired them all. You also had a internal document made by the diplomat and Brazilian ambassador to the US Mário de Pimentel Brandão where Brandão asked for the entry of jews to be denied, at the same time the foreign minister Oswaldo Aranha kept emiting these internal circulars asking for them to be allowed to enter, from Oswaldo Aranha wikipedia page:

"A book by historian Maria Luiza Tucci Carneiro argues that Aranha was aware of secret circulars asking that Jews be denied entry visas to Brazil and did little to change this. Jeffrey Lesser's prize-winning Welcoming the Undesirables: Brazil and the Jewish Question questions this conclusion, showing that Jewish entry rose notably after the secret circulars were emitted, with the active collaboration of many Brazilian diplomats and businesspeople.

The circular asking for the denial of visas to Jews, however, was not edited by Osvaldo Aranha nor was it made during his term as Minister of External Relations for Brazil. Mário de Pimentel Brandão was responsible for signing this harmful secret circular in 1937 during his term as Minister of External Relations for Brazil.

During Oswaldo Aranha's time as Minister for External Relations, from 1938-1944, many Jews were granted visas to Brazil - despite the circulars. In 1939, Jews were granted 4601 permanent and temporary resident visas to Brazil. In that year, 9% of all permanent residency visas and 14% of temporary Brazilian visas were emitted to people of Jewish origin. In 1940, 2500 Jewish immigrants were given visas to Brazil.

Albert Einstein asked Osvaldo Aranha for help in obtaining a visa for his friend, German Jew Helene Fabian-Katz. Einstein had previously appealed to the United States government for help, but the US denied Fabian-Katz a visa. Helene Fabian-Katz was granted a visa to Brazil and joined her brother, who was already living in São Paulo."
 
OTL Brazil level of development IIRC (became a third world country, sat in during the war and long after, now growing again decades later).
Well, then it is not Brazil

Brazil was like 1930-1966 economic boom, country of the future, 9th world economy, unseen levels of optmism
1966-1977 A completely suicidal economic program to rush growth making the country THE most indebted in the world
1978-2003 dispair, locked in the third world, 25 years without growth
2003-2012 some growth, passed the UK as the sixth world economy
Then imploded after 2012
 

CalBear

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Perhaps this is just my squishy-liberal bias showing, but 'no ethnic-supremacist states, Or Else' is, if anything, a steadfast defense of freedom, not a lack of it [1], at least to people who rightly understand that my freedom to throw a punch ends where your nose begins.

What I'm curious about is where the fracture points in the system are. If the A4 steadfastly refused to let India into the club, it would be a genuine conflict of one good against another good (as opposed to a conflict of either or both against Cabalist China). That utopian future requires, at least in the broad outline, that either the A4 themselves never become corrupted, or that other nations eventually accede to A(n) status themselves.

Part of what interests me about a Cabal Conflict is the aftermath; if India ends up playing a major part, taking major casualties and saving the human race as we know it, and the A4 still doesn't let them join the club? Then that's proof that the A4's world system can't be permitted to continue without reform. But if the aftermath of a Cabal Conflict shows that Korea and India can accede to the A4, it proves that the system can be a true world government; by, for, and of the people of the world, equally.

[1] except for the would-be genocidaires, which I'm fine with, pace Karl Popper. Nazi punks fuck off.
India is more or less IN the club. They have an independent nuclear deterrent, at least enough to present an actual threat and are treated by the A4 as an equal.
 
I still wonder, what actually happened to thailand ittl considering they assisted the japanese invasion of malaya like allowing the passage of japanese troops and even started the franco-thai war with thai forces attacking indochina , did they got severe punishment ittl or they got similiar treatment like otl in which the thai decided to return the territory they taken from france and the allies just act cold with it?
 
Ah, got it, sorry
No worries I should have been clearer.
India is more or less IN the club. They have an independent nuclear deterrent, at least enough to present an actual threat and are treated by the A4 as an equal.
So closer to cold war France and their "leaving NATO command and standing alone? "We are an independent and strong state that stands alone," (every time there's a crisis), "our views on this agree with yours, we'll back your play, get 'em!" Also am I right in assuming that like OTL India or Yugoslavia the existence of a semi detached power on good terms with everyone probably lets them run something like the non-aligned movement as a club for all the countries that just want to be left alone?

I still wonder, what actually happened to thailand ittl considering they assisted the japanese invasion of malaya like allowing the passage of japanese troops and even started the franco-thai war with thai forces attacking indochina , did they got severe punishment ittl or they got similiar treatment like otl in which the thai decided to return the territory they taken from france and the allies just act cold with it?
As Indochina is independent and a major ally of the A4 ITTL I would guess, "surrender or else," probably came up at some point, followed by an occupation to keep them honest.
 

CalBear

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No worries I should have been clearer.

So closer to cold war France and their "leaving NATO command and standing alone? "We are an independent and strong state that stands alone," (every time there's a crisis), "our views on this agree with yours, we'll back your play, get 'em!" Also am I right in assuming that like OTL India or Yugoslavia the existence of a semi detached power on good terms with everyone probably lets them run something like the non-aligned movement as a club for all the countries that just want to be left alone?


As Indochina is independent and a major ally of the A4 ITTL I would guess, "surrender or else," probably came up at some point, followed by an occupation to keep them honest.
Not a bad analogy, although India had a MUCH better reason for being pissed-off than France IOTL.
 
Given the near-total control of space by the A4, has there been any attempt at developing anti-sat/orbital laser technology from nations hostile or merely antagonistic to the A4 hegemony?
 
Not a bad analogy, although India had a MUCH better reason for being pissed-off than France IOTL.
True very true.

Given the near-total control of space by the A4, has there been any attempt at developing anti-sat/orbital laser technology from nations hostile or merely antagonistic to the A4 hegemony?
That would be very hard to do without being spotted (unless you don't test in which case your weapon is worse than useless) and being detected leads to a mushroom over your test site and rods on your capital three days later...
 
@CalBear

Are Germans allowed to be members of global society or are they all but kept in the statelets and hated by all humanity? What is the education system like within the statelets vis a vis the Nazi past?
 
I guess one good thing about TTL is that western nations aren't going to let Nazis write the history of the eastern front so a lot of misconceptions we have IOTL won't exist ITTL.
 
I guess one good thing about TTL is that western nations aren't going to let Nazis write the history of the eastern front so a lot of misconceptions we have IOTL won't exist ITTL.
They might exist, but in another way

Instead of "The soviet hordes being obliterated and spawning more divisions and overwhelming the germans", we would have something like "Only due the massive incompetence, terrible planning and mass tactics of the soviet army the nazis were able to conquer europe", and the western allies might switch the blame for not stopping nazi germany on the 1930s by claiming that they expected russia to be able to at least delay the nazis to allow a invasion from the west, but the soviets ruined everything
 
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