The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

I would imagine that just as OTL, some of the former Isolationists threw a flashy chunk of their personal treasure into the pot very publicly and tried to memory-hole what they'd been saying up until 1940. Some probably succeeded better than others.

The difference is that here, the emergency and the spending goes on another generation and then you have the postwar occupation++ keeping taxes nice and high, so more of them are effectively wiped out; isolationism is largely forgotten except by historians, and only sometimes mentioned in public discourse. It failed too hard and too quietly to be a whipping boy, even if they ideas that comprise it are individually reviled.

Circa TTL's 2020, there are probably nascent isolationist forces at work in the US/A4 populace. When they hit a critical mass is an open question for the future of the TL - it's clearly not yet by the 'present'.
 
I would imagine that just as OTL, some of the former Isolationists threw a flashy chunk of their personal treasure into the pot very publicly and tried to memory-hole what they'd been saying up until 1940. Some probably succeeded better than others.

The difference is that here, the emergency and the spending goes on another generation and then you have the postwar occupation++ keeping taxes nice and high, so more of them are effectively wiped out; isolationism is largely forgotten except by historians, and only sometimes mentioned in public discourse. It failed too hard and too quietly to be a whipping boy, even if they ideas that comprise it are individually reviled.

Circa TTL's 2020, there are probably nascent isolationist forces at work in the US/A4 populace. When they hit a critical mass is an open question for the future of the TL - it's clearly not yet by the 'present'.
True although constant emergency status for so long has an evolutionary pressure on mentality until it become so "normal" its hard to imagine living any other way. In the OTL west WW2 is a heroic adventure but ultimately has faded to a blip that barely effects modern day life. In this TL you are taught everyday to give thanks for our deliverence and the scars won't heel for centuries. To deny the need for preventive war would be like trampling on the reputation of Lincoln, you just don't do it ever.
 
I would imagine that just as OTL, some of the former Isolationists threw a flashy chunk of their personal treasure into the pot very publicly and tried to memory-hole what they'd been saying up until 1940. Some probably succeeded better than others.

The difference is that here, the emergency and the spending goes on another generation and then you have the postwar occupation++ keeping taxes nice and high, so more of them are effectively wiped out; isolationism is largely forgotten except by historians, and only sometimes mentioned in public discourse. It failed too hard and too quietly to be a whipping boy, even if they ideas that comprise it are individually reviled.
I think isolationism will be heavily, heavily regretted. Like slavery, racism, and asbestos, it will be one of those things that people don't do anymore.


Circa TTL's 2020, there are probably nascent isolationist forces at work in the US/A4 populace. When they hit a critical mass is an open question for the future of the TL - it's clearly not yet by the 'present'.
The problem is the war is still within living memory. Nor has America had a Vietnam or an Iraq that could make foreign intervention unpalatable to most Americans.

It would take the A4 doing something really bad to get future Americans to challenge the system.
 
@CalBear

What effects does Nazism have on national history education TTL? Have most nations, horrified by the power Nazis had on their youth through propaganda, veer away any kind of nationalism in their textbooks?

Would American history classes be more frank about things like the Tulsa Massacre and the mistreatment of natives?

Would Turkey stop denying its own genocide against Armenians? Would it also be more tolerant of its minorities as well?

Would British kids learn more about the excesses of the British Empire?
 
I think the concept of Moral Panic would be used by many to describe rise of Nazism. Which would mean just like racism, it would discredit moral guardians.

As mass media and many group demonization on Weimar Culture during interwar years caused Nazis to rise.
 
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I think the concept of Moral Panic would be used by many to describe rise of Nazism. Which would mean just like racism, it would discredit moral guardians.

As mass media and many group's demonization on Weimar Culture during interwar years caused Nazis to rise.
I don't think moral panic will vanish. It will just take on different forms.

German teenagers becoming child soldiers could easily be blamed on all the putrid propaganda Germans were exposed too.

Someone could make the argument that violence is what drove these children to commit these crimes.
 
German teenagers becoming child soldiers could easily be blamed on all the putrid propaganda Germans were exposed too.

Someone could make the argument that violence is what drove these children to commit these crimes.
Many of these moral panic in interwar germany was started off by nazis like how they claimed Jews as spreader of communism and the weimar culture, which the nazis called decadent. That was what they used to justify book burnings and all these violance like kristallnacht and eventually the holocaust.
 
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Many of these moral panic in interwar germany was started off by nazis like how they claimed Jews as spreader of communism and the weimar culture, which the nazis called decadent. That was what they used to justify book burnings and all these violance like kristallnacht and eventually the holocaust.
But again, people can point out the Nazis created media that also encouraged violence. From the horrible propaganda films to the advertisements about the need to sterilize others, this messages are what played a role in millions of people doing increasingly twisted things.

A moral guardian could argue that this violent film could create a new generation of Hitler Youth.
 
@CalBear

Given that the "Warm War" lasted from approximately 1942 until 1952 or thereabouts Germany was pretty much at peace with no danger of attacks. Hitler wanted to build his "super city" Germania and had very grandiose ideas regarding what he wanted.


Was Hitler able to realize any of the vast changes he wanted to make during the ten years of relative peace? He certainly had the labor force (i.e. slave labor) to do anything he wanted.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
@CalBear

Given that the "Warm War" lasted from approximately 1942 until 1952 or thereabouts Germany was pretty much at peace with no danger of attacks. Hitler wanted to build his "super city" Germania and had very grandiose ideas regarding what he wanted.


Was Hitler able to realize any of the vast changes he wanted to make during the ten years of relative peace? He certainly had the labor force (i.e. slave labor) to do anything he wanted.
He started it. Unsurprisingly, even with virtually unlimited labor, the Reich discovered that you can't simply made bog ground suitable to build enormous structure without really insane level of prep work (like driving THOUSANDS of piles down a few hundred feet) that takes a really long time.
 
He started it. Unsurprisingly, even with virtually unlimited labor, the Reich discovered that you can't simply made bog ground suitable to build enormous structure without really insane level of prep work (like driving THOUSANDS of piles down a few hundred feet) that takes a really long time.
And all the war can't have been good for meeting deadlines either.

I imagine TTL, there might be a crater that represents all the digging that went into the project, as well as the tragic human cost of it all.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
And all the war can't have been good for meeting deadlines either.

I imagine TTL, there might be a crater that represents all the digging that went into the project, as well as the tragic human cost of it all.
Sort of like Boston's Big Dig on a combination of Steroids and Meth, with a distressing body count.
 
Sort of like Boston's Big Dig on a combination of Steroids and Meth, with a distressing body count.
I imagine when the Allies cleared out Berlin, they found tons of mass graves. Not just the Germans who died of disease, famine, and bombing, but also the skeletal remains of the slave laborers who worked on Hitler's vanity projects. In those skeletal remains, you could easily find signs of deprivation, disease and abuse.

One could argue that Nazism a project that was LITERALLY built on a pile of corpses.
 
:)
I imagine when the Allies cleared out Berlin, they found tons of mass graves. Not just the Germans who died of disease, famine, and bombing, but also the skeletal remains of the slave laborers who worked on Hitler's vanity projects. In those skeletal remains, you could easily find signs of deprivation, disease and abuse.

One could argue that Nazism a project that was LITERALLY built on a pile of corpses.
I have to agree! And thanks Calbear for the answer.:)

One has to wonder how long it would have taken and how many more lives would have been sacrificed for Hitler to have his "super city."
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
I imagine when the Allies cleared out Berlin, they found tons of mass graves. Not just the Germans who died of disease, famine, and bombing, but also the skeletal remains of the slave laborers who worked on Hitler's vanity projects. In those skeletal remains, you could easily find signs of deprivation, disease and abuse.

One could argue that Nazism a project that was LITERALLY built on a pile of corpses.
They never really "cleared" Berlin to that degree. They went in, crushed any resistance, evaced all those who would leave, and sealed it off. Way too unheathy to spend the sort of time it would take to do the sort or clearing and investigation that would be needed.

Place is a death zone and will be for centuries.
 
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