The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

I think that's why so many try going across the Himalayas. IIRC Calbear has stated in the past unless someone is in the senior leadership or lives on an orchard they hadn't seen a fruit before. Instead they get dehydrated fruit and other stuff that can be called food but no one wants to eat unless its to keep you alive and there are no other choices.

Plus areas around Hong Kong and others border areas is a 12 mile or so deep entrenched zone that makes Berlin Wall look like a playground and its a papers please zone.

My guess is the Cabel's grip on China isn't as secure as they would like but they are able to walk that fine line. Basically I have to guess they are one harvest away from starting WWIV

But considering that every nation outside of China, except Soviet Russia, hates the cabal, wouldn't more Chinese be able to flee?
 

CalBear

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About the Korean Intervention. In military terms, how do you describe the Cabal perform against the UN in conventional warfare before the latter broke out the nukes? That the UN resorted to nukes does seem to imply that the Cabal stood their ground reasonably well, being ruthlessly competent as you say.

What were the casualties for both sides in that conflict?
They did a LOT better than anyone outside of the Cabal expected. Very disciplined troops, virtually no concern for losses, excellent use of terrain and concealment (more or less exactly what you would expect from an army that had just won a decade+ long, low tech, Civil War). The UN had stopped them cold, but they, and their Korean allies, were absolutely unwilling to give up what they had managed to hold before being stopped and pushed into better defensive ground.

The Similarity to OTL's Korean War is very much correct. The difference here was that

1. The Chinese didn't have the USSR as an apparent ally

and

2. The U.S. had zero qualms about pulling out the biggest hammer in the tool box and made it really clear that there was plenty more where that came from.

It was about as close as the A4 ever came to splitting. Had the Chinese been capable of continuing the same level of fighting after the use of the WMD it very well might have been the end. The Chinese, however, took far too many losses in both men and material to continue immediately and took a really convincing U.S. threat as genuine (which it was, the Americans were ready to break out the Crowd Pleasers) and decided that the RoE wasn't there. UN losses fell off to nothing and the UN/Korean forces were able to more or less walk up to the Yalu.

Of course the lesson learned by the Canal was the wrong one. It wasn't that the A4/U.S. was dead serious about coloring inside the lines and had both the tools and the willingness to use them in enforcing the rules. It was that the Cabal had relied on a lesser Race, one that they had thought was perhaps equally worthy, to fight by their side against the Outsiders. That was a mistake they would not make again.
 

CalBear

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No matter how loyal your guard, they still gots to eat.

How do they assure the population can be fed?
How had the DPRK managed it? For decades longer? While under utterly crippling sanctions?

How did the Soviets manage it for 40 years? Just imagine how the USSR would have done if the leadership had been as ruthless as during Stalin's day but utterly pragmatic?

Controlling a large population isn't really that difficult if you don't have much in the way of self doubt. Mass indoctrination (aka "brain washing") and ongoing intense propaganda, especially when mixed with just a bit of truth (the European Colonial powers remora'd China for better than a century, followed by the Japanese turning things up to 14, pretty easy to convince the people that outsiders are scurvy) is very effective. Throw in an absolutely loyal police structure that infiltrates every level of society (think NKVD/KGB mixed with the Saudi Religious Police supported by record keeping and informant reporting that would make the Stasi green with envy) and you have an almost unbreakable monopoly on the truth.

In a way it is like 1984, except the message never changes. It is ALWAYS everyone against us.
 
I feel like it's inevitable this world is going to have a third/fourth world war and only the cockroaches and carrion-eaters/decomposers will win.
 
How had the DPRK managed it? For decades longer? While under utterly crippling sanctions?

Because they have the reluctant backing of China, which wants a buffer against South Korean incursion.

How did the Soviets manage it for 40 years? Just imagine how the USSR would have done if the leadership had been as ruthless as during Stalin's day but utterly pragmatic?

Providing a semblance of prosperity.
 
They did a LOT better than anyone outside of the Cabal expected. Very disciplined troops, virtually no concern for losses, excellent use of terrain and concealment (more or less exactly what you would expect from an army that had just won a decade+ long, low tech, Civil War). The UN had stopped them cold, but they, and their Korean allies, were absolutely unwilling to give up what they had managed to hold before being stopped and pushed into better defensive ground.

The Similarity to OTL's Korean War is very much correct. The difference here was that

1. The Chinese didn't have the USSR as an apparent ally

and

2. The U.S. had zero qualms about pulling out the biggest hammer in the tool box and made it really clear that there was plenty more where that came from.

It was about as close as the A4 ever came to splitting. Had the Chinese been capable of continuing the same level of fighting after the use of the WMD it very well might have been the end. The Chinese, however, took far too many losses in both men and material to continue immediately and took a really convincing U.S. threat as genuine (which it was, the Americans were ready to break out the Crowd Pleasers) and decided that the RoE wasn't there. UN losses fell off to nothing and the UN/Korean forces were able to more or less walk up to the Yalu.

Of course the lesson learned by the Canal was the wrong one. It wasn't that the A4/U.S. was dead serious about coloring inside the lines and had both the tools and the willingness to use them in enforcing the rules. It was that the Cabal had relied on a lesser Race, one that they had thought was perhaps equally worthy, to fight by their side against the Outsiders. That was a mistake they would not make again.
That is interesting. Given how intense the conflict was, as you described, what were the casualty figures for both sides? (If you had thought about it.)

And where was Park Chung-Hee in all of this? Did he lead troops, as he had done in OTL Korean War?
 
My take on Stettin being simply glassed by rods from the gods is the A4 decided to make a point.

Very correct.

While they could have won conventionally if they wanted to, the position I take is those in power have a bad case of PSTD. They were having flash backs to the Hot War of the 50s and 60s and decided to teach the Germans to stay the fuck down after asking if the nuking and bio weapon attacks weren't enough to keep them down. This is to make sure they don't ever get any ideas to do this again. IIRC Calbear had stated even if aliens invaded they wouldn't rearm the Germans to help in the fight.

Not quite. While from our perspective it would be 'easy' and likely feel better to "blame" PTSD and the "need" to keep Germans 'down' as a reason there is a bigger picture and more importantly this applies to a wider purpose. Keep in mind the German Statelets are essentially the "older" Germanic states that existed before Germany was created. Such a "united" Germany is arguably seen as a catalyst for two (arguably three) "aggressive" wars that tore Europe and eventually the world apart. To prevent this a single "German" nation is no longer allowed under the terms of the final peace of the AANW period. The merging of those early "statelets" into a United Germany was to overcome and address issues with the then current state of affairs in Europe which the more modern statelets arguably don't need to address. Also arguably that original union significantly shifted the balance of power in Europe from from a semi-stable to an inherently unstable situation whereas the current set up is vastly more stable than it would be with a still United Germany in the middle of Europe. I can go on but in context the A4 has every interest in NOT recreating or allowing the recreation of an unstable dynamic that has twice caused massive conflicts. "Germany" was arguably an artificial creation (as are arguably all nations at their core) that destabilized rather than stabilized and the idea of "German Nationalism" is seen as more of a callback to different times and circumstances and less of a 'unifying' idea.

Stettin was stomped flat not to keep the "Germans" down but to make it clear that "Germany" is no longer an acceptable concept and that avoiding another war is a goal that the A4 is willing to pay for in blood if need be. (And not their blood if they can help it)

The hard part for 'us' here is to see all this without using our own filters and biases but from the perspective of someone who was born and raised in the AANW time line. "Germany" is a dirty word, "germans" (per se) is not but any individual move to recreate "Germany" is a danger and a warning sign to be treated with the severity and directness that it requires to ensure this won't happen again.

Randy
 
It would be dangerous to underestimate the Cabal. Yes, they are as evil as nazis. But they are smarter, more patient and more competent. If they can't (and probably will not) find way to create virus which kills only non Han-Chinese, they are going to search another way. They might then decide to create very deadly virus and create vaccination for that and vaccinate them who are worth to live.

Altough if they wait too long, overpopulation will be serious problem.

I'd need to point out you answered the latter issue with the former one really :)

Randy
 

CalBear

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But considering that every nation outside of China, except Soviet Russia, hates the cabal, wouldn't more Chinese be able to flee?
Actually the Indians mainly try to deal with the Chinese. The hostility there is absolutely one way. Even the A4 doesn't HATE them. They see the Chinese as a potential threat to peace, same as the Soviet Union. Both countries tried to wage an aggressive war. Both got stuffed. If they try again, they'll get stuffed again. Until then, hate is way to strong, closer to caution, mixed with a bit of pity for the Chinese people who are unable to live in a free society.

Non Chinese universities regularly have Chinese students, pretty much exclusively in the STEM fields. They are brilliant students, extremely standoff-ish, and live together in housing paid for and managed by the Chinese government. There are occasional "defectors" but they know nothing about The Plan™ and a defector brings harsh treatment down on their family "forever". * You need to sort of hate your family to even think about defecting while overseas as a student. Those who don't defect and come home with the right creditials also come home to the highest levels of the social ladder, with their family getting an increase in official status, along with them, even getting special currency that is used at "better" stores that stock things complete unavailable to the average citizen (e.g. sugar, honey, at the highest levels tobacco and fresh meat/fish/poultry).

*The Cabal teaches four generations, actually most family lines will die out in a one or two since no one will marry into a disgraced family not to mention the "special training" defector's families receive. The Cabal is very careful to ensure that this "special training" doesn't cause much in the way of deaths, lest they cross one of the A4's thick red lines, but being held in complete isolation, in cells 23.5 hours a day, with constant propaganda coming out of speakers at low volume 24/7/365, for five or ten years tends to break people down. They then serve as walking, breathing examples to others who may be "confused".

Pretty much what the Soviets used to do, but lower on the physical violence and much more carefully focused on the emotional/mental health side.
 

CalBear

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That is interesting. Given how intense the conflict was, as you described, what were the casualty figures for both sides? (If you had thought about it.)

And where was Park Chung-Hee in all of this? Did he lead troops, as he had done in OTL Korean War?
Never gave it much thought to be honest. All I really thought about is general outlines. I could give you a number but it would literally be something I'd pull out of the air. There were enough UN losses that the Americans decided that using WMD was a reasonable action.
 
The more we learn of the Cabel I more wondering how they hadn't cross over a redline of the A4 already. I know they are smart but very things stay that tight forever.
 
Never gave it much thought to be honest. All I really thought about is general outlines. I could give you a number but it would literally be something I'd pull out of the air. There were enough UN losses that the Americans decided that using WMD was a reasonable action.
I am cool for guesstimates. It wouldn't be essentially different from any of the numbers and figures given here or in any other AH work in general, methinks. Just interested to see how costly the Korean Intervention was, in relation to OTL Korean War
 
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Actually the Indians mainly try to deal with the Chinese. The hostility there is absolutely one way. Even the A4 doesn't HATE them. They see the Chinese as a potential threat to peace, same as the Soviet Union. Both countries tried to wage an aggressive war. Both got stuffed. If they try again, they'll get stuffed again. Until then, hate is way to strong, closer to caution, mixed with a bit of pity for the Chinese people who are unable to live in a free society.

Non Chinese universities regularly have Chinese students, pretty much exclusively in the STEM fields. They are brilliant students, extremely standoff-ish, and live together in housing paid for and managed by the Chinese government. There are occasional "defectors" but they know nothing about The Plan™ and a defector brings harsh treatment down on their family "forever". * You need to sort of hate your family to even think about defecting while overseas as a student. Those who don't defect and come home with the right creditials also come home to the highest levels of the social ladder, with their family getting an increase in official status, along with them, even getting special currency that is used at "better" stores that stock things complete unavailable to the average citizen (e.g. sugar, honey, at the highest levels tobacco and fresh meat/fish/poultry).

*The Cabal teaches four generations, actually most family lines will die out in a one or two since no one will marry into a disgraced family not to mention the "special training" defector's families receive. The Cabal is very careful to ensure that this "special training" doesn't cause much in the way of deaths, lest they cross one of the A4's thick red lines, but being held in complete isolation, in cells 23.5 hours a day, with constant propaganda coming out of speakers at low volume 24/7/365, for five or ten years tends to break people down. They then serve as walking, breathing examples to others who may be "confused".

Pretty much what the Soviets used to do, but lower on the physical violence and much more carefully focused on the emotional/mental health side.

This reminds me of what Aldous Huxley feared the most in his final years: a totalitarian state that can properly condition its population enough, that's it people can feel joy and exhiliration in situation where they shouldn't.

The future demagogues, he feared, would be ones who could combine the most powerful forms of manipulation, coercion, and deception to create a population that revels in their imprisonment.

Could the TTL Chinese be this "happy slave population" that Huxley dreaded?
 

CalBear

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I am cool for guesstimates. It wouldn't be essentially different from any of the numbers and figures given here or in any other AH work in general, methinks. Just interested to see how costly the Korean Intervention was, in relation to OTL Korean War
Okay. War lasted for almost five years, so...

UN - 250,000 KIA (200K Korean, 50K UN, of that about 25K U.S.) U.S. losses were actually lower than IOTL thanks to larger contingents from A4 Allies include Vietnam, the Philippines, Poland, and Tsarist Russia. The Chinese REALLY tried to avoid both the Vietnamese and the Poles when they could. According to Chinese prisoners the "White/Red flag soldiers fight like they are madmen" and the Vietnamese had the nasty trait of being way better night fighters than the Chinese, which made resupply in sectors with strong Vietnamese troops presence impossible at night and really costly during the day.

Chinese/Korean 2,200,000 KIA (400K Korean rebels 1.8M Chinese including around 110K from the WMD that took out the better part of four corps)

Civilians - about 1/4 of OTL Seoul wasn't a battlefield, much less a battlefield twice over for full out armies, and most of the war was actually fought north of Pyongyang or in less well built-up areas. UN weapons were also much more accurate so there was much less in the way of area bombing near population (in rural areas all bets were off and Chinese positions were bombed into loam)
 

CalBear

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This reminds me of what Aldous Huxley feared the most in his final years: a totalitarian state that can properly condition its population enough, that's it people can feel joy and exhiliration in situation where they shouldn't.

The future demagogues, he feared, would be ones who could combine the most powerful forms of manipulation, coercion, and deception to create a population that revels in their imprisonment.

Could the TTL Chinese be this "happy slave population" that Huxley dreaded?
I never read that description before. It fits quite well.
 
Okay. War lasted for almost five years, so...

UN - 250,000 KIA (200K Korean, 50K UN, of that about 25K U.S.) U.S. losses were actually lower than IOTL thanks to larger contingents from A4 Allies include Vietnam, the Philippines, Poland, and Tsarist Russia. The Chinese REALLY tried to avoid both the Vietnamese and the Poles when they could. According to Chinese prisoners the "White/Red flag soldiers fight like they are madmen" and the Vietnamese had the nasty trait of being way better night fighters than the Chinese, which made resupply in sectors with strong Vietnamese troops presence impossible at night and really costly during the day.

Chinese/Korean 2,200,000 KIA (400K Korean rebels 1.8M Chinese including around 110K from the WMD that took out the better part of four corps)

Civilians - about 1/4 of OTL Seoul wasn't a battlefield, much less a battlefield twice over for full out armies, and most of the war was actually fought north of Pyongyang or in less well built-up areas. UN weapons were also much more accurate so there was much less in the way of area bombing near population (in rural areas all bets were off and Chinese positions were bombed into loam)
Much appreciated Calbear.

That KIA ratio discrepancy between both sides is really something. I suppose the Cabal command's military acumen couldn't make up for the fact that they were coming fresh from a continuous, decades-long series of conflicts that had really weakened China and had not yet recovered to develop a sufficient industrial-technological base to modernise?
 

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The more we learn of the Cabel I more wondering how they hadn't cross over a redline of the A4 already. I know they are smart but very things stay that tight forever.
You can hide quite a bit as long as you are subtle. The Nazis were pretty obvious but even they mainly got away with it for years. The Chinese are not really interested in wiping out millions of people retail, they are looking at wholesale slaughter. Their actions against segments of their own population are easy to hide, given the very large population, the more or less total absence of outside observers, and the regular movement of large groups of agricultural workers following crops. When you re moving 100,000 workers by train, it is pretty easy to "disappear" a couple thousand of them, and there are plenty of mines in China, some of which are a lot less productive than the occasional Intel photos seem to indicate.

The Chinese did run a test using a lab created bacterial pathogen, using the Soviets (who are as close as they have to an ally ATL) in 2015. It was successful as a "proof of concept" for the technique and as a test to see if anyone would twig to it being engineered (they used thw Soviets are a test target in the belief that, if someone figured out it was manmade they would blame the Soviets). The British took samples, identified it as something brand new, completely whiffed on it being human engineered. There was some considerable happiness at the next Council of Leaders Conference.
 
I never read that description before. It fits quite well.

My impression is that the most evil social movements behave like abusive spouses: they manipulate and abuse you, while pretending to have your best interest at heart. What Aldous Huxley imagined can be described as a societal version of co-dependency.

In an abusive relationship, the abuser will skillfully present themselves as your friend and your savior, while forcing you to pick up most of the slack. The most extreme forms of nationalism operate under a more grandiose form of this: they claim that you have a duty to the state, because the state protect you and loves, you and thus you must die and sacrifice for it. OTL Hitler was an extremely crazy example of this: instead of simply accepting defeat to save his people from harm, he tried to burn down his country, march children and old people to their doom in battle, and lashed out as his own generals. In the movie Jojo Rabbit, the imaginary Hitler acts like a goofball, but everytime JoJo does something taboo, Imaginary Hitler becomes crueler and crueler. TTL Himmler obliterated Paris and other major cities, and the in-universe view is that he behaved like an angry divorced husband who destroys his wife's assets just so she can't have them.

In really sick religious cults, the leader of the cult behaves the same way: he makes himself out as a god and savior, while ordering you sacrifice for Him. Jim Jones and his Peoples' Temple operated like one big psychotic, parasitic boyfriend. He started out with noble aims: helping the poor and downtrodden of Indiana. But considering how abusive and manipulative he had been, it seems like he was hungering for power and control over others. He basically beat people, forced himself sexually on them, claimed their social security checks, and conned them with fake miracles. And yet, he insisted "I'm doing this for your own good." And when people dared to question the conditions of Jonestown and left, he murdered his own followers. I don't call it mass suicide, since he held people at gunpoint and forced them to drink the poisoned punch.

The right wing cry of "hate America" seems to be like an abusive person trying to stifle legitimate criticism by playing the victim.

Chinese society TTL operates along similiar lines: throw enough bones to the people, then insult and threaten them when they dare act "ungrateful."

My view is that you ought to steer clear of any social group that tries to bully and demean you, or which promises you utopia, because the people in charge of those movements just hunger for power over others like the vampires they are.
 
You can hide quite a bit as long as you are subtle. The Nazis were pretty obvious but even they mainly got away with it for years. The Chinese are not really interested in wiping out millions of people retail, they are looking at wholesale slaughter. Their actions against segments of their own population are easy to hide, given the very large population, the more or less total absence of outside observers, and the regular movement of large groups of agricultural workers following crops. When you re moving 100,000 workers by train, it is pretty easy to "disappear" a couple thousand of them, and there are plenty of mines in China, some of which are a lot less productive than the occasional Intel photos seem to indicate.

The Chinese did run a test using a lab created bacterial pathogen, using the Soviets (who are as close as they have to an ally ATL) in 2015. It was successful as a "proof of concept" for the technique and as a test to see if anyone would twig to it being engineered (they used thw Soviets are a test target in the belief that, if someone figured out it was manmade they would blame the Soviets). The British took samples, identified it as something brand new, completely whiffed on it being human engineered. There was some considerable happiness at the next Council of Leaders Conference.
You definitely still have that writer's talent in you, because god damn, that is frighteningly chilling. Something's going to happen in the near future, and it will be terrible.

Regarding disappearing workers, I'm starting to think that China has mastered the art of flying under the A4's radar so well that they can just about get away with genocide without them noticing.
 
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