The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

And probably they wanted too buidl some memorials for millions of dead
IOTL the Reich killed 6 million Jews and there are currently over 300 Holocaust museums and memorials worldwide. ITTL the Reich killed over 80 million Slavs and enslaved millions more as chattel on top of razing entire cities so who knows what their commemoration would look like.
 
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I really feel people have a very narrow view when they say this world is worse than our world

If you ask anyone in Africa, Asia, Latin America, anywhere but Europe and China, they would absolutely agree that A4 had provided them with safety and security as well as help them develop economically

I mean think about it, even today we have countless brutal and horrific conflicts in Middle east, Africa, Latin America etc, for them, this world would be a heaven compared to our world

I'm not saying the world is worse on a material level. Although as a Jewish person, I lament the non-existant Jewish state, I welcome a prosperous Brazil, a decent Mexico, and wealthy and Democratic India. I also welcome an American government that is rational and not-hyperindividualistic. ITTL,

But like with the Justice Lords, this prosperity is only maintained by having not-so-evil overlords hanging over your head.

Justice Lords Gotham city is a nice place that is far more competent and clean place...but with the caveat that some man in black can arrest you for loudly complaining about the restaurant check.

It is somewhat understandable? Yes.

But again, I feel like the Nazis have won in a way. They believed you needed to lord over others with tyranny, and the A4...do that, albeit to a far less horrible degree. Someone could point out to them that how can you have a democracy when your world leaders can obliterate an entire city so easily.

And yes, they have taken the high road, put the former German states in a gilded cage instead of brutalizing them like the Poles were, and warned them not to act out. But a gilded cage is still a gilded cage.
Pakistan's creation was based on the fact muslims were different than non muslims, even the first law minister, who was a Hindu, left the country realizing the rising Islamism. The only thing that could have prevented Pakistan being an full blown Islamist country is by having it develop much faster

While Jinnah may have meant well, by pushing the notion that Muslims needed self-determination, he only fueled Islamism by demolishing the notion that India could ever be religiously tolerant?

What was Jinnah's....beef with Hindus?

(HAHAHAHA!)

I don't really disagree with any of this.

The A4 simply is what it is. It is based on what I believe could be a very possible, even likely, reaction to the War as shown in the overall T/L. The A4 is the result of what is best described as a collective case of PTSD. Others may disagree.

Yes. They are better than the Nazis and most other world powers in OTL in that they want "never again" to mean something.

But then they basically squish a bunch of innocent people while swatting the rebels is...

Eh.
 
(it is very probable that any non Chinese who survives their hoped for creation will be seen, regardless of skin color or appearance, to actually be of the True Human Race, simply suffering from some extremely rate medical condition like albinism).

So, a Cabal victory scenario would end up backfiring in the same way that a Burgundy victory scenario in The New Order: The Last Days of Europe would?

In TNO, if Burgundy successfully starts a nuclear war, then, due to their belief that only Aryans could survive it, the descendants of the surviving inhabitants of Burgundy will deem every other person/civilization they encounter to be Aryan. Here, if the Cabal produces an apocalyptic bioweapon, the remnants of the Cabal could deem all other survivors to be Chinese.
 
Except in this TL it would be different because of the length of time between the Reich’s victory in the USSR and the Reich’s defeat, all the Slavic landmarks getting destroyed completely and nearly all of the inhabitants that remember them either dying or living with extreme trauma from being enslaved for years.

I think all the Slavs in Nazi Europe that survived would have much bigger concerns after the war than rebuilding landmarks though it’s certainly possible.
In Marseille, there are neighborhoods that never were rebuilt to their former glory after the damage of World War II.

Until the Slavic nations can build self-sustaining economies, their concerns will be food and transportation, not silly treasures.
 

CalBear

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I think I may have asked this before but I also think I didn't get an answer. How advanced are the medical sciences in AANW? I know healthcare policy is far more advanced than OTL (well at least in America), but the fact that the Cabal even thinks a virus is worth trying would seem to indicate that the A4 are at least perceived to be ill-equipped to handle a global pandemic. Perhaps vaccine research took a back seat to space exploration iTTL?

IOTL bioweapons are something of a low end WMD, a distant third behind chemical weapons, themselves a distant second to nuclear weapons. This is partially down to risk of blowback, but it's also partially down to the responsiveness of the pharmaceutical industries; even with a messy response to the virus, America still produced 3(?) functional vaccines within a year of COVID-19 appearing stateside.
Medical science is actually pretty well advanced, including some actually REALLY useful medications discovered in China (gotta pay the bills for that Kill everyone but us research somehow). That was, largely driven, as might be imagined, by the witch's brew that came out of the War. Now a lot of the tech is related to emergency medicine and remote diagnostics needed to Indian Deep Sea sites and A4 Lunar Habitats.

Bioweapons were mainly a back seater because they scared to pougies out of everybody. Despite that all the major players (and more than couple smaller ones) had/have large, well funded bio-weapon programs. Russia is still believed to have a very active, quite secret (although not secret enough) Program and the DPRK is commonly thought to have a secret program (worth mentioning here that I modeled the Cabal on the DPRK, although with double the lucidity among the leadership). Rumors about other programs also crop up form time to time. IMO the real threat is from a non-state actor or very well funded group who decides that Thanos' big error was that he was insufficiently ambitious.
 
Given the revelation that the Chinese are rather more ideologically hard-headed than I had predicted, I'm actually a lot less scared of them now. I think their efforts to engineer a virus that only exterminates the non "true humans" will almost certainly fail, since I doubt it's possible for a virus to work within their parameters. Not that they wouldn't be willing to accept a fair few Chinese casualties in the pursuit of their goal, but a near 100% death rate for all non-Chinese and near 0% death rate for all Chinese just sounds very far from possible. Regarding that though, if multiple decades have gone by without their program bearing fruit, I wonder if eventually a few officials start whispering that if they're really the True Humans who are entirely biologically separate from the subhumans, then surely making a True Human-selective bioweapon shouldn't be this difficult (It's almost funny actually, that the country that's the most advanced in the medical and biological sciences also manages to be enormously and irrationally racist, to the point of never entertaining any thoughts to the contrary. Those Cabal people are some weird folks).

Though I suppose even their efforts failing is scary, since with their population edging on 3 billion thanks to their pro-natalist policy in anticipation of inheriting the Earth, they've got a time limit before their own resources can't support them anymore. If it comes to that, they might try a mass culling of a certain percentage of the population so the rest has enough resources to survive (they're evil enough bastards for it), though that could easily draw the attention of the A4 who could interpret it as genocide. Either way, I'm sure the A4 is currently wondering what exactly the end goal of their huge population increase is.

I hope LeMay AFB and O'Hare NAS will be self-sufficient within the next few decades, just in case.
 
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@CalBear About the Cabal. Did the internal disorder in China which allowed them to seize power happen concurrent to the AANW? Did the CCP got liquidated by the Cabal or did that occur sometime during Chiang's rule, post-Pacific War? What was Chiang's fate anyway?
 

CalBear

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So, a Cabal victory scenario would end up backfiring in the same way that a Burgundy victory scenario in The New Order: The Last Days of Europe would?

In TNO, if Burgundy successfully starts a nuclear war, then, due to their belief that only Aryans could survive it, the descendants of the surviving inhabitants of Burgundy will deem every other person/civilization they encounter to be Aryan. Here, if the Cabal produces an apocalyptic bioweapon, the remnants of the Cabal could deem all other survivors to be Chinese.
They would more or less have to to prop up their world view. A pretty much ideal example from OTL was how the Nazis would quite literally kidnap young blond/blue children from families in General Government and conquered parts of the USSR and adopt them out to "Good German Families" (frequently SS or Party Members) to be raised as Aryans.

There is also the fairly well know, caught on newsreel footage, case of Himmler himself stopping while walking outside a wire enclosure holding Jews waiting to be shipped to the camps to speak to one of the detainees. The man was blond/blue and Himmler asked him if he was SURE that all four of his grandparent were Jewish. The poor guy, not having a clue what was waiting at the end of the train ride, told the truth. Himmler just shrugged and walked away.

Racial superiority is unsupportable by any logic. It just is.
 
Given the revelation that the Chinese are rather more ideologically hard-headed than I had predicted, I'm actually a lot less scared of them now. I think their efforts to engineer a virus that only exterminates the non "true humans" will almost certainly fail, since I doubt it's possible for a virus to work within their parameters. Not that they wouldn't be willing to accept a fair few Chinese casualties in the pursuit of their goal, but a near 100% death rate for all non-Chinese and near 0% death rate for all Chinese just sounds very far from possible. Regarding that though, if multiple decades have gone by without their program bearing fruit, I wonder if eventually a few officials start whispering that if they're really the True Humans who are entirely biologically separate from the subhumans, then surely making a True Human-selective bioweapon shouldn't be this difficult (It's almost funny actually, that the country that's the most advanced in the medical and biological sciences also manages to be enormously and irrationally racist, to the point of never entertaining any thoughts to the contrary. Those Cabal people are some weird folks).

Though I suppose even their efforts failing is scary, since with their population edging on 3 billion thanks to their pro-natalist policy in anticipation of inheriting the Earth, they've got a time limit before their own resources can't support them anymore. They might try a mass culling of a certain percentage of the population so the rest has enough resources to survive (they're evil enough bastards for it), though that could easily draw the attention of the A4 who could interpret it as genocide. Either way, I'm sure the A4 is currently wondering what exactly the end goal of their huge population increase is.

I hope LeMay AFB and O'Hare NAS will be self-sufficient within the next few decades, just in case.

But never forget, they are still dangerous to the global order, since like the Reich, they are nutjobs who believe strongly in their own supposed superiority.
 

CalBear

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@CalBear About the Cabal. Did the internal disorder in China which allowed them to seize power happen concurrent to the AANW? Did the CCP got liquidated by the Cabal or did that occur sometime during Chiang's rule, post-Pacific War? What was Chiang's fate anyway?
They did, although their final victory in ATL 1965 was a couple years after the end of the European War and was seen as a case of "the old band of crooks" being replaced by a new crew with the same general make-up. The Cabal had manifest faults, but their leadership during the Chinese Civil War was very competent, entirely ruthless, and ultimately victorious. If the WAllies hadn't been hip deep in carnage, a fight to the finish with the Reich, and then the shattered remnants of a Continent, they might have noticed that there was a new Fascist racial superiority state rising up in Asia. Of course the real Crazy Town belief systems didn't become entirely dominant until the Chinese attempt to take Korea was stopped by the "UN" (and half adozen low yield U.S. nuclear weapons), demonstrating that only "Purity of Belief in thought and word" would allow the Chinese Race their proper place.

Chiang and his wife actually made it to the Philippines were they were granted asylum. Demand for the Cabal for his return were politely ignored, threats of action against the Philippines, a well armed, very close A4 ally were met with a response using very few words, the activation of several divisions of Philippine Army troops and a remarkable show of force by the A4 navies.

Mao's request for asylum from the the Soviets was refused.
 
Given the revelation that the Chinese are rather more ideologically hard-headed than I had predicted, I'm actually a lot less scared of them now. I think their efforts to engineer a virus that only exterminates the non "true humans" will almost certainly fail, since I doubt it's possible for a virus to work within their parameters. Not that they wouldn't be willing to accept a fair few Chinese casualties in the pursuit of their goal, but a near 100% death rate for all non-Chinese and near 0% death rate for all Chinese just sounds very far from possible. Regarding that though, if multiple decades have gone by without their program bearing fruit, I wonder if eventually a few officials start whispering that if they're really the True Humans who are entirely biologically separate from the subhumans, then surely making a True Human-selective bioweapon shouldn't be this difficult (It's almost funny actually, that the country that's the most advanced in the medical and biological sciences also manages to be enormously and irrationally racist, to the point of never entertaining any thoughts to the contrary. Those Cabal people are some weird folks).

Though I suppose even their efforts failing is scary, since with their population edging on 3 billion thanks to their pro-natalist policy in anticipation of inheriting the Earth, they've got a time limit before their own resources can't support them anymore. If it comes to that, they might try a mass culling of a certain percentage of the population so the rest has enough resources to survive (they're evil enough bastards for it), though that could easily draw the attention of the A4 who could interpret it as genocide. Either way, I'm sure the A4 is currently wondering what exactly the end goal of their huge population increase is.

I hope LeMay AFB and O'Hare NAS will be self-sufficient within the next few decades, just in case.

It would be dangerous to underestimate the Cabal. Yes, they are as evil as nazis. But they are smarter, more patient and more competent. If they can't (and probably will not) find way to create virus which kills only non Han-Chinese, they are goign to search another way. They might then decide to create very deadly virus and create vaccination for that and vaccinate them who are worth to live.

Altough if they wait too long, overpopulation will be serious problem.

A good question is how successful has the Cabal been at brainwashing over a billion Chinese citizens?

Probably very succesful if them just had similar propaganda masters as Goebbels. Them had several decades time to brainwash the population. Nazis needed only some years to brainwash whole population so it wouldn't be too hard to do with billion people in half century.
 
They did, although their final victory in ATL 1965 was a couple years after the end of the European War and was seen as a case of "the old band of crooks" being replaced by a new crew with the same general make-up. The Cabal had manifest faults, but their leadership during the Chinese Civil War was very competent, entirely ruthless, and ultimately victorious. If the WAllies hadn't been hip deep in carnage, a fight to the finish with the Reich, and then the shattered remnants of a Continent, they might have noticed that there was a new Fascist racial superiority state rising up in Asia. Of course the real Crazy Town belief systems didn't become entirely dominant until the Chinese attempt to take Korea was stopped by the "UN" (and half adozen low yield U.S. nuclear weapons), demonstrating that only "Purity of Belief in thought and word" would allow the Chinese Race their proper place.
About the Korean Intervention. In military terms, how do you describe the Cabal's performance against the UN in conventional warfare before the latter broke out the nukes? That the UN resorted to nukes does seem to imply that the Cabal stood their ground reasonably well, being ruthlessly competent as you say.

What were the casualties for both sides in that conflict?
 
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A good question is how successful has the Cabal been at brainwashing over a billion Chinese citizens?
Given Calbear states that thousands try to cause the bloody Himalayas and the Indians have a slightly insane group that goes out to save them, that tells me not well.

Then how has the cabal not collapsed?

It's important to note that communist tyranny has lasted in China for a pretty long time, it has only lasted as long as it did through reform and innovation. I remember reading that China's economic condition by the time Mao died was critical, and that the reforms were done out of sheer self-preservation.

What is the economy policy of the Cabal @CalBear , and how do they feed the overpopulated masses?
 
Was it really unneeded?
According to this:
" Polish and Philippine forces seem to be gaining the upper hand against the rebels"

I would say yes.

So would many if not most OTL, those with more specialized knowledge and longer 'planning' horizons as well as those in the A4 of the AANW-universe would not agree and in fact they would be 'right' and you wrong. Now on a moral and "tactical" level this would seem a much more "black-and-white" rather than gray area and while it's actually a dark gray it is actually "black-and-white" and Stettin rebels specifically drag the general population over into it being a necessary "black-hat" situation. More so in the eyes of the A4 and likely a lot of the population simply because the 'tactical' situation was actually immaterial to the overall strategic and long-range situation which is what the A4 focuses on.

No need to murder a city when you can win conventionally.

You seem to have missed that 'winning conventionally' was impossible under the circumstances and that while the local tactical situation was going well the overall strategic (and again this was always the A4's forte) was going to hell in a hand basket with several very dire long-range repercussions and dangers. Lets again review the expanded background facts and right up front admit that we don't fully share the world-view of the of the occupants of the AANW time line:
Let's review

1. Prussian Uprising begins on April 11th with carefully planned attacks on Polish occupation forces. 2. Rebels are found to be using weapons originating in China, although tracing their movement from Asia to Stettin proves to be impossible. 3. After five days of fighting, as Polish and Philippine forces seem to be gaining the upper hand against the rebels, all Treaty troops suddenly withdraw from Stettin at sunset on April 16th.

1, Carefully planned attack (i.e. professional) attack against Peacekeeping troops (who actually function more like a U.S. State Patrol or State Police primarily, but not exclusively aimed at ensure the Treaty prohibitions on Weapons and weapon tech are being followed, while also serving as a "heavy SWAT" team for local police in case of bank robberies or hostage situations). The Poles, especially, are good, their forces rotate between working in the Statelets and as peacekeepers as requested through the UN elsewhere, including on the Chinese/Korean Border. Despite that they were taken completely by surprise attacks against multiple locations across the entire region.

2. The rebels were not using WW II surplus weapons or double barreled hunting shotguns and bamboo spears. They were using thoroughly modern weapons including a lot heavier gear than a few assault rifles, that match the standard issue of Chinese forces (which are very similar to Soviet weapons). There is no reasonable explanation for how the weapons made their way to the Stettin area that doesn't include serious, high level, smuggling. There is also no really reasonable explanation for how men and women who should never have any practical knowledge of using militarily quality weapons simply by watching TV.

3. These supposed amateur untrained, poorly led rebels fought what amounted to a BRIGADE of combat veterans ( equipped with, drones, LAV, Helicopters, and access to real-time satellite intel to a standstill for FIVE DAYS

As CalBear notes this is a VERY worrying and potentially highly dangerous situation that calls into question both the occupation forces competence and ability to retain control over the German Statelets BUT the very nature of the local control and/or intentions of the governments and people OF those Statelets. This is a highly trained, highly motivated, well armed and well planned rebellion that while being locally 'controlled' pretty much proves that the same or better forces and planning could be in place elsewhere. Either biding their time to learn lessons from this operation or awaiting a planned general uprising possibly in conjunction with outside forces also attacking the A4 as a whole. There is no other way to see what's going on from either a military or strategic point of view and it represents a clear and present danger to the occupation, the A$ and World Peace.

"Tactically" there's no question of the A4 gaining the upper hand and destroying the overt "rebels" actually engaged in fighting the occupation forces in Stettin itself. That's the 'easy' part and arguably (though not likely if the rebels are as well prepared as they seem) doing things the 'hard' way might glean some intelligence about how deep and far the 'rot' in Prussia specifically and the other Statelets runs and maybe shed some light on the obvious 'state' actor that supplied the weapons and training. But that's going to be costly in lives on both sides and more directly vastly more lives in ALL the Statelets because the assumption has to be made that this was no limited to Prussia. So once the 'tactical' job is done the 'strategic' job will begin of dismantling the government, mercantile and social order of each and every German Statelet to the bedrock to see what other 'rot' that might have been missed essential destroying what public trust has been built up since the end of the War, disrupting and likely collapsing the economic and social order that has been created and generating at least another generation of "ill-will" that will extend the occupation time table for likely at least another several decades if not half a century.

"Strategically" that would be a disaster because on the most basic level it is highly unlikely that such an effort and organization as would be required to plan, train and carry out such operations at Stettin are wide-spread because of the needed coordination and size would inevitably lead to leaks and slips that would give such a wider organization away before this point. Essentially tearing down everything that has been built to this point in search of that possible "New Germany" organization will entail millions of dollars in both real and fiscal damages and likely millions of lives over decades of time and generate hundreds of thousands if not millions more disaffected, dissatisfied, and outright hostile 'recruits' for future rebellions.

Or the A4 can perform "strategic surgery" with a targeted non-nuclear 'strike' to clean out the current 'cancer' and prove a point about the limits that they will allow in opposition and to make it clear that violating those limits have consequences that are too terrible to contemplate. Stettin burned which arguably was the smart (if still "bad") choice to make but under the circumstances the only other option was much worse. Keep in mind that the AANW experience was and is that the "civilian" population will for the most part fight right alongside the military to 'preserve' their institutions and so there's not a lot of 'sympathy' for those that don't actively oppose those the A4 is fighting. Those 'civilians' that don't flee the fighting (if they can) will be seen as passively 'supporting' the Rebels more than victims and therefore will not be likely seen as 'non-combatants' in the normal sense and in the AANW-verse passive support is not seen differently than active support.

But I suppose to A4 German lives are worth less than lives of other people. So they saved the lives of Peacekeepers who would have died in further conventional fighting and at the same time killed more Germans (both combatant and non-combatant) than the deaths that would occur from further conventional fighting.

That is exactly how EVERY military and strategic doctrine sees things, and they are very much not wrong in that "your" people are always more important than those "opposing" you either actively or passively. (This is very much why "militarization" of law enforcement is always a bad thing because by it's nature it removes the "police" from being part of the community to being more important and valuable than the community itself. It's also very much why having the regular military try and 'police' or regulate civilian populations is a very bad idea, they operations and doctrines are very much not-compatible)

And no it's likely the 'deaths' and other damage of simply proceeding with a 'tactical' battle would have been much, much worse.

Randy
 
Then how has the cabal not collapsed?

It's important to note that communist tyranny has lasted in China for a pretty long time, it has only lasted as long as it did through reform and innovation. I remember reading that China's economic condition by the time Mao died was critical, and that the reforms were done out of sheer self-preservation.

What is the economy policy of the Cabal @CalBear , and how do they feed the overpopulated masses?
If I had to guess, the Cabel have a large and very loyal guard type unit that keeps everyone in order to a degree.
 
Given Calbear states that thousands try to cause the bloody Himalayas and the Indians have a slightly insane group that goes out to save them, that tells me not well.

TTL China has a population of 2 billion.

If only one percent of the population hated the government, that would result in there being 2,000,000 dissidents. If one percent of those 2 million dissidents tried to flee, you would get 200,000 people trying to flee. Yet there would still only be a small minority of the population opposing the Cabal in spite of the large number of people trying to flee.


The fact that thousands of people are fleeing China does not mean that the Cabal is widely unpopular in China.
 
No matter how loyal your guard, they still gots to eat.

How do they assure the population can be fed?
I think that's why so many try going across the Himalayas. IIRC Calbear has stated in the past unless someone is in the senior leadership or lives on an orchard they hadn't seen a fruit before. Instead they get dehydrated fruit and other stuff that can be called food but no one wants to eat unless its to keep you alive and there are no other choices.

Plus areas around Hong Kong and others border areas is a 12 mile or so deep entrenched zone that makes Berlin Wall look like a playground and its a papers please zone.

My guess is the Cabel's grip on China isn't as secure as they would like but they are able to walk that fine line. Basically I have to guess they are one harvest away from starting WWIV
 
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