The Amazon Empire

You're going to think I'm crazy even to think of a thread like this but here it goes anyway.

In 11th grade I took this elective AP course called Human Geography. It was a great course (probably my third favorite high school course behind AP Government and Politics and EP European History) and very informative too. Anyway at the beginning of the class we had a homework assignment to find and write a report on an article on some recent archeological find. Anyway, my article basically stated that many archeologists believe that there was in fact an advanced civilization in the Amazon that was destroyed by the European explorers, my ancestors.

The article goes on to say that the explorer Francisco de Carvajal (a friend of "myself") described great marvelous cities in the Amazon. Many modern archeologists today are saying that he might have been right. They say that the thick jungle we see today is just a cover of ancient civilizations that were built by people that were long ago exterminated by the Europeans.

Now I ask you, what if such an alternate civilization existed. And what if it was built by white people?

The POD of my timeline would be around 4000 BC but would not be felt by the Europeans until the mid 1500s. Basically, a famine strikes OTL Eastern Ukraine giving many Indo-Europeans farmers a need to migrate. I'm sure there were plenty of famines in the Indo-European farm world so the famine is not the POD. The POD is that a couple of a hundred farmers (who would've died IOTL) get the bright idea to built boats and sail down the Black Sea looking for more farmland. The farmers bring many crops (especially wheat) and farm animals which they bring to the Amazon upon arriving. ITTL, all the people who leave on the boats died IOTL of a famine. Due to this, the same people who lived in Europe IOTL up until the 1500s will also live ITTL. My main goal of making this distinction ITTL is to keep "myself" (the historical Emperor Charles V) alive because I intend for him to be the main anti-hero ITTL.

Now how the hell do the refugees go from the Ukraine to the Amazon by primitive boat? Notice I made the POD 6000 years ago on purpose. I want to give the refugees enough time to reach the Amazon (I intend for them to not arrive there until several centuries after they first left). Also, I intend for the refugees to live sort of a parrallel lives to the Europeans. They will first undergo a bronze age, then form a classical empire (around the same time as the Roman Empire) which will then fall and result in a medieval age which will end in a Renniassance righ around the time the Europeans (Spanish) arrive. Along the way, writing, the wheel and all that other good stuff will be invented independently.

What do you think so far?
 
I think the element of saying "white people" completely spoils it, frankly.

OTL the people who did create the Terra Prieta societies were Native Americans, and if any significant number of Europeans somehow made it all the way to the middle of Brazil (and the obvious route for that is out of Africa, so much more likely Africans than Europeans would make this trip if anyone could), several thousands of years later they'd be completely merged in with the Native peoples--they'd be Native, as much as say the Athabascan peoples who are believed to have immigrated via sea (coastwise) from Asia some considerable time after the ancestors of the bulk of Native peoples moved in over land via Berengia during the last glaciation.

I guess imagining some unlikely immigration from Europe can produce a distinct civilization in the Amazon region doesn't exactly deny or preclude that other peoples could do it--which is well, because they did.

Perhaps you are thinking the Europeans will be immune to the diseases that wiped out the Terra Prieta peoples OTL?

They certainly won't be. You're talking about a transAtlantic migration long before the agricultural civilizations of the Old World had reached the demographic levels where the brew of infectious diseases that plagued the world from Classical times on had had much chance to develop, and before trade between the various centers had reached a level where a major disease endemic to one center could spread and establish itself in all the others.

The immunities the Europeans had were due entirely to generations of their ancestors having been recently mowed down by these diseases. The descendants of a handful of Black Sea immigrants will be no more immune to them than their neighbors descended from Alaska-route immigrations would be, even if somehow the lineages never merged. (But under the circumstances you describe, they surely would).

Again, while it is remarkable and thought-provoking (how many other lost civilizations are hidden out there, for instance?) that the Terra Prieta peoples accomplished what they did, only to vanish from European knowledge completely, by that same token what difference would an alternate Terra Prieta society make in terms of the development of the Americas? Civilization existed there OTL. It also existed in many other sites in the Americas.

People can speculate about whether the American civilizations were in some meaningful sense "less advanced" than the Old World ones--I'd actually come down on the side of saying yes, that's true. A counterargument can point out that the Americans had far fewer domestic animals than Old Worlders--but a whole lot more diversity of crops! Much of the modern world's diet derives from Native American cultivars; arguably they weren't "backward" but just different. I'd say that things that you mention--metallurgy, big empires, stuff like that--are significant and it's meaningful to label societies as more or less advanced, and in those terms the Americas were somewhat backward, by a few thousand years I'd say. And one reason for that is a lack of domestic animals.

Now if your Black Sea Europeans had wound up in North America, or on the Pampas of Argentina, and by the way re-introduced horses into the Americas, then I might expect the American pace of development to accelerate to keep up with the Old World, and for the patrons of the would-be conquistadors to be confronted by peoples with empires comparable in power to European ones, and metallurgy and so forth. Just horses alone probably won't cut it but they might. There'd be no reason in particular then to single out the Amazon civilizations then though; most likely the great centers would begin where they did OTL (including the Amazon region but not exclusively there) but then spreading sooner and staying more persistently, on a growing and truly imperial scale, in the great grass plains and temperate forestlands of the northern part of North America and the southern part of South America. Because of scale and diversity of terrain I expect the Northlands to be where the additional greater and more lasting (for cities and widespread advanced societies did exist in these regions OTL, notably in the Mississippi valley areas) civilizations are found, alongside their more ancient seedbed regions.

With horses, and perhaps a few more other domestic animals than OTL, and with great cities approaching the density of population of typical Old World cities , and trade between them, they'll have their own sets of epidemic diseases. Probably fewer than the Old Worlders will "give" them, and these diseases will mow them down as OTL to be sure--but meanwhile the Europeans are being cut down too, by the American diseases which are fewer, perhaps just one or two, but which Europeans or Asians would have no more immunity to than the Native Americans--with or without Back sea region ancestors--have to Old World ones.

But your ancient sailors almost certainly would not bring horses. Or donkeys, or the kinds of cattle that make good oxen, or sheep or goats, or even the domestic cat.

There's no reason then to expect that the Americas would be significantly more advanced than OTL. Smaller in total population than the Old World, with no cocktail of diseases to balance the Old World's witches brew and no draft animals to speak of, it is only natural they would be behind, hence vulnerable.

Unless that is, you have some idea that Eurasians are just more capable and apt at this kind of thing and that a handful of them can change everything. I trust that is not what you are suggesting?

What I think might be nicer and more interesting would be if the Terra Prieta people had long, limited but persisting contacts with Old Worlders--most likely African, but the Portuguese could get into the act too--and over many centuries may be exposed to samples of European diseases, so when the Conquistadors arrive in force the jungle peoples don't die back, so they are maintaining their cities and farms. Also via them other Native powers, such as the Andean and Mesoamerican nations, might also get a bit if immunity--via mass deaths and natural selection.
 
Thanks so much for your input Shevek23! :D

Maybe I should make the POD later possibly around 2500 BC. By this time, many historians agree that there was widespread domestication of the horse in the Black Sea era. Due to this, the migrants will bring a couple of horses (it only takes two Eurasian horses to produce millions in the Americas) as well as sheep, goats, chickens, pigs, cattle, dogs, cats and maybe a donkey or two. They will also bring with them old world crops such as wheat, barley and peas. Due to a steady supply of old world crops and animals, the Black Sea people will be able to build great cities of the New World (remember, Guns Germs and Steal, a lot of food= usually a thriving civilization). Also due to being near all kinds of livestock, the Black Sea people will develop diseases of their own. No it won't be exactly smallpox but it would be something pretty close to it. I was planning on not having the Black Sea immigrants actually arrive in the Amazon until several hundred years after they first left Europe. Maybe along the way they could settle in Africa and acquire more things from the Africans to use in the new world. Remember, I want as little old world butterflies as possible. Charles V is a crucial character in my story and he still must be born and become Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain.
 
I agree with Shevek23. Except you'd get slightly better disease resistance, the Native Americans were extra vulnerable due to a very low founder population. It won't be enough to make a difference, though.

Also, the notion that a migratory population from the Ukraine would end up in the Amazon streches suspension of disbelief too far. The mediterranean was pretty settled, and hostile to drifting groups of population with no food source. They'd either manage to bloodily carve out a space to settle permanently, or perish in short order.

If you absolutly have to have a "white" founder population, I would suggest using the Gunaches from the Canaries. A Mauretanian expedition reported ruins of great buildings there around 50 BC. An Easter Island style population collapse seems possible.

A POD that sees the Canaries used as a stopover or base for trade with the Sahel coast (they had a _lot_ of gold) a few centuries earlier innoculates a maritime tradition, and the Amazon is a pretty natural place to end up if you mess up in any way on that trade route, both the trade winds and ocean currents wil take you straight there.

Exactly how the Guanches would displace the indignious population in an environement they are unused to, I don't know, but it has happened a number of times before. So it isn't beyond belief.

Alternativly, you could move the POD back to the drying out of the Sahara. The Sahara had a long, wet, fertile period that peaked around 4000 BD, after which it dried up in less than 300 years! A proto-civilization in Northwestern Africa, with some links to the Canaries could have some knowledge of the Amazon, and may have done a Saxon-style migration when conditions deteriorated for their own river agriculture.

Either of those, plus occasional links with the Old World to keep the germs and ideas moving.
 
Have your farmers leave from southern spain, They could either be people displaced by the early indo europeans. You could also make them Indo europeans or both. Think big have them also find Madera, push the people out of the Canary islands and follow them.
That would give you a very interesting South America with at least three different north African and european groups mixed with the Indians at lest one of which were city builders. You could also end up with northwestern africa speaking a mix of Iberian, Berber and Indo european.
I would how ever allow the migrants to drift south to an environment that is more famillar and has a much smaller population.
 
Have your farmers leave from southern spain, They could either be people displaced by the early indo europeans. You could also make them Indo europeans or both. Think big have them also find Madera, push the people out of the Canary islands and follow them.
That would give you a very interesting South America with at least three different north African and european groups mixed with the Indians at lest one of which were city builders. You could also end up with northwestern africa speaking a mix of Iberian, Berber and Indo european.
I would how ever allow the migrants to drift south to an environment that is more famillar and has a much smaller population.

This sounds good. :D When and what should I make the POD for something like this to happen?
 
I would say some where in the middle to late bronze age, say 1350 BCE. That would give time for the Indo Europeans to get into Spain.
 
As for a POD. Use the city of Tartessos, we know that it was there but don't know much about it. Assume that it had traders and that these traders were fairly closed mouthed. Have them trade down the north western coast of Africa and maybe to the Canary Islands or at least know about them.
The Indo Europeans in the mid east seem to have been very good at elite dominance, a good example is the Mitanni, they moved in and became the ruling elite. Have them attempt this in Tartessos. Some of the powerful trader clans flee southwest to the Canaries and are followed by the Indo europeans. They follow for many possible reasons. Loss of particular trade goods, personal vendetta or prophedic dreams promasing fame, riches, land what ever.
 
I once took a class about non-European ancient cultures, and if I recall correctly, the Maya at some point had two different "groups" -- a high one in more mountainous areas, and a low one in low terrain areas such as the rainforest. I don't doubt that it's possible that a rather advanced culture could have existed in the Amazon.

As to the idea of brining in people from Europe, I think that's not going to work out exactly as you're planning. To begin with, you need to make them sail across the Atlantic Ocean, which will require a lot of luck. Most migrations from Europe/Asia into the Americas were presumably in areas were there was a closer geographic proximity (e.g. Siberia and Alaska) or by people with relatively advanced nautical skills (such as the theory -- I don't know if it's been confirmed, I think so -- that Vikings reached the Americas at some point). Black sea farmers would need to build ships, sail across the Mediterranean, and then across the Atlantic Ocean. That would take a lot of resources, no pirates, and friendly people in every port as well. Also, they would probably spend a while in coastal areas of the Americas, rather than immediately venture into the forest. They would also need to be lucky here, so that they could keep good enough relations with indigenous people (and a very specific kind that wouldn't lead to them being completely assimilated, but retaining their home culture almost intact) and be able to survive an extremely different area. You have to take into account the climate, vegetable species, etc. which would have been extremely alien to people from the area you have in mind.

And if they do survive, there's no real guarantee that things could unfold exactly as you describe. The time periods you're describing apply mostly to Europe because that's how things happened here, due to a specific set of conditions. If you're talking about cultures elsewhere, of course that their time periods are going to be very different, for instance, parts of Asia were rather more advanced by our modern standards in comparison to Europe. I'm not saying that people elsewhere are less developed -- quite the opposite, in fact. It's possible that due to your chosen area's specific conditions and random events like natural disasters or epidemies, this culture would reach a very advanced stage much earlier and then be in decline or even gone by the time the Spanish arrived, or the contrary.

I'm pretty sure that there was a Maya script, so it's not impossible for writing to develop. As to the wheel, it would probably depend on where the people you're talking about live. If they're living in an area that doesn't offer many possibilities in terms of transportation (very dense vegetation, large distance between cities/villages, difficult terrain) and if they have lots of manpower, they probably don't specifically need to invent the wheel so they don't. Even if they already knew it from Europe, they could easily forget it if there wasn't much use for it, and they're also likely to adopt the local lifestyle. Or perhaps different kinds of wheels would be invented so they could be used in a different terrain, etc. These are just examples of course. There are more: some of their crops won't be as well-suited to a tropical rainforest area, especially not with the technology at their disposal. Several of their animals might die on the way and have trouble adjusting to a new climate and vegetation.

I don't understand why you can't just use populations that are already there. I don't see how bringing in Europeans would make a huge difference. You could just study different cultures from South America and create a fictional population with a POD that could lead to what you want.
 
As for a POD. Use the city of Tartessos, we know that it was there but don't know much about it. Assume that it had traders and that these traders were fairly closed mouthed. Have them trade down the north western coast of Africa and maybe to the Canary Islands or at least know about them.
The Indo Europeans in the mid east seem to have been very good at elite dominance, a good example is the Mitanni, they moved in and became the ruling elite. Have them attempt this in Tartessos. Some of the powerful trader clans flee southwest to the Canaries and are followed by the Indo europeans. They follow for many possible reasons. Loss of particular trade goods, personal vendetta or prophedic dreams promasing fame, riches, land what ever.

I like this idea and I'm going to use something like it if you don't mind :D Good job! It's pretty ironic that the alt-Amazonians would be descended from the Spanish but they would rediscover them almost 3000 years later!

Now that I got an idea, I will post the first part of my timeline tonight! :D
 
Before I post the actual timeline I will give some background information on the countries in alt-South America as well as the culture of the people who live there. Since I am addicted to the map games on the shared worlds forum, I will do a country profile of Oricariya (the leading country of the alternate-amazon) map game style.
 
Here's a map of The Americas ITTL to start off with. I will add the descriptions shortly.

Oricariya and Metapec.png
 
The colored region outlined in black is the plain of Metapec, the area of the Amazon where the greatest concentration of the Vāsi People ("white" people descended from ancient Indo-European Spanish immigrants) live. The year of the map is July 1498, just one month before Columbus first arrives in South America.

At this time, there are eight nations in Metapec. In order of population:

--Yellow represents the Kingdom of Oricariya, the chief nation that this TL will mainly focus on.
--Light Blue represents the Republic of Rijuriya an economic powerhouse and the main rival of Oricariya before the Europeans arrive.
--Pink represents the Three Ridgeway States, which were formally part of Oricaryia until they got their independence in 1460. They are ruled by a provisional millitary dictatorship.
--Orange represents the Kingdom of Jatrūs, the other major monarchy of Metapec.
--Dark blue represents the People's Union of Xivle a nation based on trade that has somewhat of a direct democracy.
--Dark Green represents the Confederation of the Osos, a tribal confederation governed by a paramount chief which has by far the largest Native American population of Metapec. The name has no connection to the Spanish word for "bear."
--Purple represents the Duchy of Peyers, a puppet state of the Oricarian king governed by a duke.
--Last but not least, maroon represents Oxiñale which got independence in the 1460's from Oricaryia (which it's why it's often regarded as the "Fourth Ridgeway State") and as of 1498 is ruled by a series of corrupt dictators.

Red spots represent cities (population over 100,000). The big red spot represents cities with populations over 1,000,000 (whcih in this case there is only one, Sæxompol, the capital of Oricariya).
 
Here's a list of kings of Oricariya up until 1498 (6694 PU) when Columbus arrives in South America. PU doesn't stand for a nasty smell, instead it just stands for pox uxētedu or "after the rising" which basically according to Oricariyan mythology means the awakening of the eternal spirit Oyōs. Here the kings are listed in AD years instead of PU years for your convenience. To find the PU year (not that you would) just add 5196 to the AD year.

When the once great Glodiōn empire fell in the late 200s, many tiny short-lived kingdoms popped up across the once united Metapec. Finally, one kingdom called Teplas was formed by a high status semi-barbaric warrior named Teplac Cariasec who was the chief-warrior of the Casodilno Tribe.

Rēxi Teplasec (Kings of Teplas)

Teplac Cariasec (477-503)
Solgidu Teplasec (503-519)
Varas Teplasec (519-541)
Hevōn Varasec (541-558)
Virader Hevōnec (558-577)
Teplac Hevōnec (577-581)
Varas Cariasec (581-591)
Ziol Varasec (591-642)
Cemōn Ziolec (642-664)
Solgidu Cemōnec (664-695)
Hevōn Solgidec (695-706)
Xilo Solgidec (706-717)

In 714 AD (5910 PU) Xilo Solgidec of Teplas conquers rival kingdoms and declares himself first king of Oricariya (Old Damva for "ashland" because the new kingdom rose from the ashes of the Glodiōn Empire). Xilo "Næronu" ("the great") was the primogenitor of the first kings of Oricariya or the "Rāmorēxi."

Rāmorēxi (The First Kings)

Xilo I (714-727)
Ceplar I (727-736)
Ataxer I (736-772)
Nōnovas I (772-795)
Telsū I (795-833)
Xetō (833-845)
Casigon (845-882)
Ziol (882-903)
Ceplar II (903-924)
Planigēs (924-966)
Nōnovas II (966-987)
Telsū II (987-1008)

In 1008, an apothecary and self-proclaimed "wizard" named Dracōn and his band of eccentrics stormed and burnt down the castle Vexonæru where King Telsū II lived. Telsū managed to escape with one of his sons, Oxoron. The defeated king fled west in exile to the jungle leaving Dracōn free to take over the country. Dracōn ruled with an iron fist often killing and torturing people and burning down cities as a sacrifice to the evil god Zavinōn.

Rule of Dracōn

Dracōn (1008-1020)

Fortunately, many people agreed that their new leader had gone too far. An angry mob of Oricariyan citizens rescued the elderly king Telsū II from the jungle and brought him back. After some bloody battles Dracōn was slain and Telsū II was placed back into power. With this a new era began in Oricariya, the Vojocur (literally the "Age of Bettering"). The restored line of kings became known as the Vojorēxi (the "better kings").

Vojorēxi (The Better Kings)

Telsū II (1020-1024)
Oxoron (1024-1037)
Ceplar III (1037-1058)
Tēs (1058-1090)
Vicedon I (1090-1123)
Saviōn I (1123-1156)
Telsū III (1156-1194)
Vicedon II (1194-1211)
Ceplar IV (1211-1234)
Ataxer II (1234-1261)

Ciamvis I the son and successor of Ataxer II is seen as the best king Oricariya ever had. Between the great territorial expansion, exploration, alliances, technological advancements, science (astronomy and medicine) and cultural achievements (theatre, art, poetry, music, cuisine) during his reign, he earned the name Ciamvis Magazonu ("the magnificent"). Under his reign the Golden Age (Osoncur) began which is like the Oricarian equivalent of the reniassance.

Osorēxi (The Golden Kings)

Ciamvis I (1261-1297)
Xilo II (1297-1326)
Nectanēvo (1326-1352)
Ciamvis II (1352-1386)
Ataxer III (1386-1407)
Ataxer IV (1407-1414)
Ciamvis III (1414-1439)

As cultural and scientific advancements in Oricariya hit an all time high in the early 1400s, less fortunate areas of the vast empire were became upset by unfair treatment and taxation by the Oricarian King so they rebel. In the 1460s under the rule of Savion II, the son of Ciamvis III, the four southern provinces of Oricariya formally revolt and becom independent. The Three Ridgeway States and the nation of Oxiñale is formed from all this madness. With a shrinking empire, the Oricariyans are forced to put their fanciful cultural achievements aside and instead focus on getting along with other countries for they are no longer the sole significant nation of their reigon. Therefore, the golden age turns into the new Age of Diplomacy (or Nāyamecur). In the midst of this age, the Europeans arrive!

Nāyamecorēxi (The Diplomatic Kings)

Savion II (1439-1468)
Vicedon III (1468-1491)
Cadric (1491-)

Any questions on the kings?
 
Last edited:
Here are some key words in Damvanæru ("great tongue") or "Damva," the main language spoken in Metapec (Oricariya in particular),

Good day/ Hello (formal): Vil zoc!
Hello (informal): Alā!
Good morning: Vil ānra!
Good afternoon: Vil poxivirga!
Good evening: Vil vesipa!
Good night: Vil nocut!
Good Bye (formal): Rití!
Good Bye (informal): Tōn!/ Ton-ton!

Yes: Æ
No: Nē

One: Yōn
Two: Dohu
Three: Rēs
Four: Cædores
Five: Ven
Six: Sex
Seven: Sēm
Eight: Otoho
Nine: Nūn
Ten: Dēm

Person: Manu
Man (male): Vīr
Woman: Morīnā

Dog: Ciliōn
Cat: Catā
Cattle (singular): Árnom
Cow (female): Vacā
Bull (male): Pozu
Ox: Uxōn
Horse: Ec (larger ones), Cāvon (smaller ones)
Rooster: Cæx
Hen: Cæxa
Pig (swine): Rogu
Sheep: Of
Goat: Capu
Duck (bird): Anæs
Rabbit: Conilū
Parrot: Pesó
Bird: Telsū (yes also the name of several kings!)
Fish: Isu (used to refer to a general fish in the ocean), Pīx (a specific fish)

River (big): Simlíc (only used to refer to the Amazon and it's main triburaties)
Creek/Stream (small river): Dānu
Lake: Ágeru
Mountain: Xavaru
Hill: Col
Jungle: Kapan
Tree: Avū

City: Pol (only used for an establishment with a population of over 10,000 people)
Village: Vōco (<10,000 people)
House: Dom
Castle (or big house): Vex
 
Top