The Affects of a 'Greater' Singapore

Then what do you think of the expanded Straits Settlements idea I postulated on page 1? Is that close enough, or is it too spread out for your liking?

With British Borneo and Johor it ceases to be recognizably Singapore (even if Johor could be persuaded to enter). A Republic of the Straits on the other hand, consisting of three main city-states (Singapore, Malacca and Penang) works since administratively and historically there are established ties along with a similar ethnic mix.
 
With British Borneo and Johor it ceases to be recognizably Singapore (even if Johor could be persuaded to enter). A Republic of the Straits on the other hand, consisting of three main city-states (Singapore, Malacca and Penang) works since administratively and historically there are established ties along with a similar ethnic mix.

True - maybe North Borneo is a bit of a stretch - but vis-à-vis Johor, somehow both Malacca and Singapore would need to ensure that they have a continuous problem-free supply of water, right?
 
True - maybe North Borneo is a bit of a stretch - but vis-à-vis Johor, somehow both Malacca and Singapore would need to ensure that they have a continuous problem-free supply of water, right?

Well they didn't IOTL. There's no way to get Johor out of the Federation- it goes against their interests especially since Malay nationalism is going to be a factor. The Sultan is also going to be a problem.
 
True - maybe North Borneo is a bit of a stretch - but vis-à-vis Johor, somehow both Malacca and Singapore would need to ensure that they have a continuous problem-free supply of water, right?

Well they didn't IOTL. There's no way to get Johor out of the Federation- it goes against their interests especially since Malay nationalism is going to be a factor. The Sultan is also going to be a problem.
 
Well they didn't IOTL. There's no way to get Johor out of the Federation- it goes against their interests especially since Malay nationalism is going to be a factor. The Sultan is also going to be a problem.

Hmm, I see. Unless - IIRC, Johor was one of the Unfederated Malay States before WW2. Now, assuming a 19th-century POD where the Anglo-Dutch treaties (or a revision later on between that and 1929) allow Singapore to hold most of the Riau Islands (thereby creating a city-state about the size of Hong Kong, with the eventual urban sprawl coming from that), followed by the creation of the Straits Settlements - could it be possible that at an early stage during the Straits Settlements' existence, Johor could then be persuaded to join the Straits Settlements (as well as retaining Christmas Island and the Cocos [Keeling] Islands instead of those two becoming part of Australia - not to mention retaining Labuan), thereby no longer making Johor an Unfederated Malay State but federated with the rest of the Straits Settlements? Yes, the Sultan would be a factor, but one that could be dealt with early on (say by trying to convince him that it would be in his best interest - probably coaxing it with having the Straits Settlements' capital in JB, perhaps), but then the big concern is that it thus becomes a Johor-wank under the name of the "Straits Settlements".
 

Blair152

Banned
Alright, technically the PoD for this would probably have to be in the Anglo-Dutch treaties of the early 19th century, though I suppose a 20th century
PoD could be found, anyways I put it here since I'm curious what the affects would be on 20th and 21st century Singapore.

So, what if Singapore had included most of the Riau archipelago as seen in the below map, how would this alter Singapore's history, would it be more
or less the same, just with some islands, would it be less well off or would Singapore be an even bigger and even wealthier city-state, likely with
massive bridges connecting the islands?

While the demographics would likely be different (regardless of which PoD) as a comparison modern/OTL Singapore has a population of just under
5 million, while these islands have a population of about 1 million.
Do you mean the 'Effects of a Greater Singapore'? I don't know.
 
Hmm, I see. Unless - IIRC, Johor was one of the Unfederated Malay States before WW2. Now, assuming a 19th-century POD where the Anglo-Dutch treaties (or a revision later on between that and 1929) allow Singapore to hold most of the Riau Islands (thereby creating a city-state about the size of Hong Kong, with the eventual urban sprawl coming from that), followed by the creation of the Straits Settlements - could it be possible that at an early stage during the Straits Settlements' existence, Johor could then be persuaded to join the Straits Settlements (as well as retaining Christmas Island and the Cocos [Keeling] Islands instead of those two becoming part of Australia - not to mention retaining Labuan), thereby no longer making Johor an Unfederated Malay State but federated with the rest of the Straits Settlements? Yes, the Sultan would be a factor, but one that could be dealt with early on (say by trying to convince him that it would be in his best interest - probably coaxing it with having the Straits Settlements' capital in JB, perhaps), but then the big concern is that it thus becomes a Johor-wank under the name of the "Straits Settlements".

Pretty much- remember, originally the Sultan's capital was at Singapore itself. He was edged out and pretty much coerced into signing off rights for the island to the East India Company.

What you say is possible but then it becomes the Kingdom of Johor-Riau as opposed to being Singaporean i.e. a Malay monarchy instead of a multi-ethnic mercantile republic. I wasn't trying to say that it was impossible but rather indicating that a state including Johor would be a Greater johor not a Greater Singapore.

Incidentally re urbanisation- I'm not sure that you would see that much more urbanisation in the Riau islands until the late 20th C. Under Britain there was little industry in Singaporeand so urban development would still focus on the port at the main island proper. Riau would most likely remain rural until after independence when (assuming development similar to OTL) you'd likely see the development of a lot of light industry there.
 
as well as retaining Christmas Island and the Cocos [Keeling] Islands instead of those two becoming part of Australia.

Hm, now that is an interesting idea, have Singapore have two small islands far away from itself.

Christmas island is interesting to since it's 70% Chinese (though, the population is under 2,000).

Hm, I wonder what it'd take to get Singapore an Antarctic claim. :D
 
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Pretty much- remember, originally the Sultan's capital was at Singapore itself. He was edged out and pretty much coerced into signing off rights for the island to the East India Company.

What you say is possible but then it becomes the Kingdom of Johor-Riau as opposed to being Singaporean i.e. a Malay monarchy instead of a multi-ethnic mercantile republic. I wasn't trying to say that it was impossible but rather indicating that a state including Johor would be a Greater johor not a Greater Singapore.

True - still, it could be a start towards creating a multi-ethnic mercantile republic as an outgrowth of a Malay monarchy. Would it need some time to work it out, even if it's a Greater Johor? Absolutely, but it would be interesting to see.

Incidentally re urbanisation- I'm not sure that you would see that much more urbanisation in the Riau islands until the late 20th C. Under Britain there was little industry in Singaporeand so urban development would still focus on the port at the main island proper. Riau would most likely remain rural until after independence when (assuming development similar to OTL) you'd likely see the development of a lot of light industry there.

Hmm, isn't that similar to Hong Kong's relationship with the New Territories, IIRC?
 

Cook

Banned
It was originally part of India before coming under the administration of the Straits Settlements for a while before becoming part of Australia, you know. ;)

Yes.

But I think Clunies-Ross may not like his kingdom remaining as part of an independent Singapore.
He’d have known he’d be less popular with them than he ended up with us.

I wasn’t overly serious of course.
;)
 
*Bump*

I'm considering including this in one of my projects, though I'm not sure if I should just make it a general result of the BtfEft or to
actually make a new project (which will only ever be half finished) withit as one of the main differences.
 
With the premise that the Brits do a deal with the Dutch and sign over these islands which get incorporated into Singapore, how are these island developed differently between this deal and independence in the 1950s? Does the naval base get built on one of these islands instead of Singapore itself? Do these islands get fortified? Are they filled with Chinese and Indian immigrants to make them more productive than OTL? Can the IJA take these islands as easily as they took Singapore if Percivals army retreats to them instead of Singapore?
 
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