I still want India to decolonize more or less as in OTL. India might maintain stronger links with Britain, but it would be a sovereign nation.
The 20th Century
- Thread starter Romulus Augustulus
- Start date
That Can Be Done...
That can be done, but I was thinking of basing the British withdrawal on the Egyptian and Arab nationalist model. As such, you would have initially some military and political ties, but they would certainly be the target of violent actions. Also, terrorism, as in OTL, can lead a moderate political government to a radical theocratic government....
Romulus Augustulus said:
That can be done, but I was thinking of basing the British withdrawal on the Egyptian and Arab nationalist model. As such, you would have initially some military and political ties, but they would certainly be the target of violent actions. Also, terrorism, as in OTL, can lead a moderate political government to a radical theocratic government....
You Certainly Can...
If you follow a nationalist model similar to Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, or Syria you can certainly end up with a secular military regime. Another model closer to OTL would be Pakistan under General Pervez Musharraf. If anything, it can work....
Romulus Augustulus said:
If you follow a nationalist model similar to Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, or Syria you can certainly end up with a secular military regime. Another model closer to OTL would be Pakistan under General Pervez Musharraf. If anything, it can work....
I Can Arrange That...
With a few key assassinations and the rise of Shiv Sens, I can certainly arrange that to happen. Thje only problem is that you will certainly have Russian, British, and possibly Chinese intervention in these regions....
Romulus Augustulus said:
With a few key assassinations and the rise of Shiv Sens, I can certainly arrange that to happen. Thje only problem is that you will certainly have Russian, British, and possibly Chinese intervention in these regions....
Mr_ Bondoc said:
Post-1940 or so, the European powers focus mainly on each other. There's an economic miracle of sorts in the 1920s, but the Europeans still hate each other.
There Are Several Reasons Why....
-First, with over close to 800 million practicing Hindus with a religious and national identity, putting them in Pakistan would be a major ASB event.
-Second, with the nations I plan to create in the balkanization/collapse of the "buffer zone" of the region in OTL, consisting of Pakistan and Afghanistan, writers can create some interesting political/cultural developments not seen in OTL.
-Third, considering the character of Jiddu Krishnamurti, I seriously doubt he would allow such a state to exist, at least not without a few nuclear weapons pointed at it....
Wendell said:
-First, with over close to 800 million practicing Hindus with a religious and national identity, putting them in Pakistan would be a major ASB event.
-Second, with the nations I plan to create in the balkanization/collapse of the "buffer zone" of the region in OTL, consisting of Pakistan and Afghanistan, writers can create some interesting political/cultural developments not seen in OTL.
-Third, considering the character of Jiddu Krishnamurti, I seriously doubt he would allow such a state to exist, at least not without a few nuclear weapons pointed at it....
--1900: Queen Victoria dies, the British Empire suffers a severe loss in the Boer War after the Boer capture of Ladysmith, entering peace negotiations. Edward VIII becomes king. Relations begin to deteriorate with Germany. A multinational force is sent to quell the Boxer Rebellion. Although the Boxer Rebellion is put down, controversies over the exact command structure and infighting hurt Anglo-German relations again.
--1901: Australian Federation formed of the British colonies that were there before. With Anglo-German relations deteriorating even more rapidly than in OTL, Britain and France begin a series of negotiations, which will eventually lead to the 1903 Entente Cordiale. Japan launches a surprise attack on Russian forces in the Far East. The war is eventually resolved with US mediation, and results in a return to the status quo ante bellum. Since Russia is also falling out with Germany, Japan, finding a common enemy with Russia, begins to establish links with Germany.
--1902: The Moroccan Crisis. The Moroccan kidnapping of French citizens results in a small French intervention to protect French interests there. The Kaiser, invoking some treaty or other, travels to Morocco and makes some remarks in favor of Moroccan independence. Britain falls behind France, and Russia, its relations with the Austrians and Germans deteriorating, issues statements of support. The attempt to drive the Entente apart fails, only driving France and Britain closer together.
--1903: The Entente is signed. At the same time, Britain, deciding to get on the good side of Russia, holds a diplomatic conference to resolve the Great Game. The Treaty of Lhasa, a solution similar to the one found in OTL's 1907, is signed.
Feel free to improve, it's just a rough outline.
--1901: Australian Federation formed of the British colonies that were there before. With Anglo-German relations deteriorating even more rapidly than in OTL, Britain and France begin a series of negotiations, which will eventually lead to the 1903 Entente Cordiale. Japan launches a surprise attack on Russian forces in the Far East. The war is eventually resolved with US mediation, and results in a return to the status quo ante bellum. Since Russia is also falling out with Germany, Japan, finding a common enemy with Russia, begins to establish links with Germany.
--1902: The Moroccan Crisis. The Moroccan kidnapping of French citizens results in a small French intervention to protect French interests there. The Kaiser, invoking some treaty or other, travels to Morocco and makes some remarks in favor of Moroccan independence. Britain falls behind France, and Russia, its relations with the Austrians and Germans deteriorating, issues statements of support. The attempt to drive the Entente apart fails, only driving France and Britain closer together.
--1903: The Entente is signed. At the same time, Britain, deciding to get on the good side of Russia, holds a diplomatic conference to resolve the Great Game. The Treaty of Lhasa, a solution similar to the one found in OTL's 1907, is signed.
Feel free to improve, it's just a rough outline.
Because I felt like it...maybe we can have it happen as in OTL, but be more of a tie. The tie ripples to better Russian performance in WWI, but also a more succesful reform movement. Also, when the Soviet Union is finally formed, it's more of a smoother transition.
It's more of a tie than anything else. The Russians fight the Germans to a standstill, and Poland and environs becomes a big bloodbath. The Austrians, now...they collapse in early 1914, with the Russians rapidly overrunning Galicia...or something like that. I have a strong pro-Russian bias, you see.
To be honest, Romulus, I could see Russia managing peace with the Germans in 1914-15. Germany and Russia return all land to each other, though Russia does get a large slice of Galacia from Austria. This allows Germany to shift all the Eastern Front forces to Alsace-Lorraine, where the Allies are finally breaking through. Meanwhile, though Russia has done pretty good with the peace, disaster strikes. The Czar and his Family are assassinated by your revolutionary, and even though Rasputin manages a shaky hold on much of the ethnical Russian areas, the Poles, Baltics, Ukranians, etc. break away. The revolutionaries also smuggle Lenin into Petrograd, and he establishes a Commune there (Rasputin is based in Moscow).
Nah...I want a Soviet Union, encompassing more or less the historical areas of Russia. For the peace, I could see major Central Powers reverses in 1913-1914, with the enormous bloodbath in Alsace turning towards the Allies, and with a Russian breakthrough against the Austrians. The Germans would probably be willing to negotiate. After the war, there'd be a great deal of dissatisfaction towards the Czarist regime...I don't know about Rasputin, but maybe Alexei could get good DNA and not have hemophilia, negating that mad monk's influence? Rasputin, meanwhile, moves to the USA and starts a burger chain. A very, very succesful burger chain.
Anyway, with the Czarist regime generally hated, my revolutionary goes and snipes Nicholas II, which acts as something of a catalyst. Revolutionary communes are set up in every major city of the empire, and the new socialist regime lets Poland and Finland go. Around 1917, the Soviet Union is set up...
Anyway, with the Czarist regime generally hated, my revolutionary goes and snipes Nicholas II, which acts as something of a catalyst. Revolutionary communes are set up in every major city of the empire, and the new socialist regime lets Poland and Finland go. Around 1917, the Soviet Union is set up...
Germany does keep her OTL 1914 borders, but pays an indemnity. Austria-Hungary, now...it loses Galicia. And a few other places besides. The shock of the war causes it to completely collapse, and the Austrian portion of it ends up joining Germany.
France gets Alsace-Lorraine. It has a brief "Time of Troubles" in the early 20s, along with the rest of Europe. It goes through the old Third Republic, a quasi-socialist regime, a short lived Third Empire, and then the Fourth Republic.
Germany? Much the same...the imperial regime barely survives, and Hitler begins to gain power in the Reichstag. He's not anti-semitic or racist in this TL...the mass deaths in Germany are due to his killing people who oppose him, not Jews or Slavs or Roma.
Germany, meanwhile, strongly dislikes the new independent Poland, which it tries to destroy. The new Poland keeps its independence with Soviet help, as the Soviets want a buffer state to protect them from the Germans.
There's a Romania, which ends up gaining Bessarabia somehow (nowadays it's Moldova) and a Bulgaria, and a Yugoslavia, and an independent Albania, and a Czechslovak nation, and Greece, which has parts of western Turkey in this TL (the Balkan War of 1912 ends up destroying the Ottomans...)
I think that's it, really...
France gets Alsace-Lorraine. It has a brief "Time of Troubles" in the early 20s, along with the rest of Europe. It goes through the old Third Republic, a quasi-socialist regime, a short lived Third Empire, and then the Fourth Republic.
Germany? Much the same...the imperial regime barely survives, and Hitler begins to gain power in the Reichstag. He's not anti-semitic or racist in this TL...the mass deaths in Germany are due to his killing people who oppose him, not Jews or Slavs or Roma.
Germany, meanwhile, strongly dislikes the new independent Poland, which it tries to destroy. The new Poland keeps its independence with Soviet help, as the Soviets want a buffer state to protect them from the Germans.
There's a Romania, which ends up gaining Bessarabia somehow (nowadays it's Moldova) and a Bulgaria, and a Yugoslavia, and an independent Albania, and a Czechslovak nation, and Greece, which has parts of western Turkey in this TL (the Balkan War of 1912 ends up destroying the Ottomans...)
I think that's it, really...
Two Ideas I have...
-A Third French Empire in the '20's and '30's. Though France has gained alot, she has still lost a generation, and the youth looks to the radicals to restore glory. Leon Blum is made president in the early-30's, and the Right revolts within a few months. Though communists under Maurice Thorez manage to hold out in the "Paris Commune", the Right eventually takes back Paris under Charles Bonaparte (son of Eugene), who proclaims himself Napoleon V. Belguim is invaded and taken over (a Republic of Wallonia is proclaimed), and eventually a war with the Germans in the late 1930's.
-A Pacific War in the 1930's-40's . Japan still invades China, as in OTL, and snatches Indochina from the French while they're in the civil war. Britain, worried about France, agrees to stay out of the way of the Japanese, though Australia and New Zealand decide to sign a defense pact with the US. The Japanese eventually invade the Dutch East Indies (maybe in concert with a French attack on Holland?), and war ensues between them and the Pacific Pact (ANZUS and the Dutch).
Sound OK?
-A Third French Empire in the '20's and '30's. Though France has gained alot, she has still lost a generation, and the youth looks to the radicals to restore glory. Leon Blum is made president in the early-30's, and the Right revolts within a few months. Though communists under Maurice Thorez manage to hold out in the "Paris Commune", the Right eventually takes back Paris under Charles Bonaparte (son of Eugene), who proclaims himself Napoleon V. Belguim is invaded and taken over (a Republic of Wallonia is proclaimed), and eventually a war with the Germans in the late 1930's.
-A Pacific War in the 1930's-40's . Japan still invades China, as in OTL, and snatches Indochina from the French while they're in the civil war. Britain, worried about France, agrees to stay out of the way of the Japanese, though Australia and New Zealand decide to sign a defense pact with the US. The Japanese eventually invade the Dutch East Indies (maybe in concert with a French attack on Holland?), and war ensues between them and the Pacific Pact (ANZUS and the Dutch).
Sound OK?