the 1st Jet vs Jet combat, not what you might think.

19th March 1945; a raid, identified as two Arado 234 jet bombers, takes place against Moelsbrock airfield Belgium. Coming out of heavy cloud at 6000 ft, enemy aircraft drop 6 fragmentation bombs in front of the squadron hangar, only one of which goes off. This caused some minor splinter damage to one Meteor, 616sqn had been deployed there since 4th February.

Not much, but the longest journey starts with a single step.

Could this 1st jet vs jet combat have turned out much differently? With a bit of warning could 616sqns Meteors have successfully scrambled and attacked these Arados? Or are the F3s too slow? Would such an engagement become the most over-analysed engagement in air combat history? Would it yeild any lessons other than the blindingly obvious things like good warning, the best possible fighters etc?
 
Going on with this apparently unpopular theme, WI Hitler got it into his head that the Allied jets should be beaten by German jets for morale/propaganda/prosterity reasons?

On Feb 14 fighter-bomber Me262s conducted 55 sorties throughout the day against British troops near Cleve. WI some or all of these sorties were directed against the Meteor base in Belgium? And this was the start of a patchy campaign of harrasment against the RAF jets by German jets to respond to another of Hitler's demands? Nothing too serious; the odd fighter-bomber mission, fighter sorties into the area and A234 bombing mission like the one IOTL March 19, conducted as part of the general last ditch efforts of 1945? Would 2ATAF even notice such a campain, and conduct specific operations to counter it? Would 616sqn be able to handle such an attempt to specifically engage it, or would it suffer badly and have to withdraw?
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Given the small number of Swallows available, and the overwhelming number of Allied fighters, I sincerely doubt that the Allies would even notice, except in after action reports by the fighter pilots who blew the -262s out of the sky as they gave up their biggest advantage; the hit and run moves through Allied bomber formations that let them strike and run before the escorts could react. Sticking around to fight fighter on fighter would simply get them killed as they shed altitude and tried to turn with the far more numerous, more manueverable Mustangs and Tempests and equally fast Meteors.

I'm surprised that Hitler didn't try something like this. It is just the sort of scheme he loved.
 

Archibald

Banned
Sorry to be a bit off topic...

The real threat could have been the Heinkel He-280. It flew in april 1941...

I remember a (rought) alt-history in which He-280 was "quietly" developed from april 1941 and entered service in autumn 1943, during the horrendous Shweinfurt raids... bad time for the allies airpower!

http://jpcolliat.free.fr/he280/he280-1.htm
 
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Most of the Me 262s were flown by crack veteran pilots under Galland; I sincerely doubt he'd have any truck with stupid orders, especially given his and Lutzow's recent history

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I don't think it would take much to provoke the worlds 1st jet vs jet campaign, especially considering the small numbers involved:
The greatest no. of Me262 F/B sorties was 55, 14 Feb near Cleve.
The Greatest no. of 262 fighter sorties was 58, on March 31.
March 19 saw a pair of Ar234s attack the Meteor base and slightly damage a Meteor.
On the Allies part there was only 1 sqn of jets, Meteor F3s, far outnumbered by German jets.
So I think the raw material is there for a distinct jets vs jet war to occur; small number of German jets conducting scattered missions against the Meteors amongst their regular gigantic task of fighting a losing battle against the thousands of Allied air sorites every day. But such a campaign needs a specific reason to occur, and as CalBear said and I totally agree, Hitler was a nut for this sort of stunt could possibly have demanded that it occur.

Perhaps the distance from German airfields to Moelsbrock may mean that attacks could only be undertaken by Ar234s, supported by Me262 fighter operations. But that would be enough to provoke jet combat, Meteors intercepting Ar234s and perhaps meeting their supporting Me262s. The desperate situation of the Germans would probably mean that they could only commit small numbers of jets to this campaign, so 616sqn needn't be overwhelmed and defeated.
 
As with the German jet squadrons 616 was made up of combat veterans. They were deployed specifically to counter the Me 262s and their Mk III Meteors were if anything more powerful than the German machines. In any combat neither side's pilots were likely to make rookie mistakes so unless one side completely surprised the other any contacts would have probably been inconclusive skirmishes.
 
The Dean, what do you mean by more powerful? As in a more lethal combat machine? One of the reasons this sort of thing interests me is because when it's all said and done I don't think the F3 would be much better or worse than the 262 in actual combat.
 
The Dean, what do you mean by more powerful? As in a more lethal combat machine? One of the reasons this sort of thing interests me is because when it's all said and done I don't think the F3 would be much better or worse than the 262 in actual combat.

Powerful as in lbs of thrust. The Jumo 004s were from 1,600 to 1,900 lbs of thrust the Derwent's were from 2,000 to 2,600lbs. Certainly not as a combat machine, as you say they would probably be fairly evenly matched with, in my opinion, the balance in favour of the German machine. However as I said with both sides using combat veterans in their cutting edge machines contacts would probably have inconclusive results.
 
In the German vs British jet thrust race, like my pocket, there'd be nothing in it. From what I understand the 1st 15 F3s were fitted with 1700lb Wellands before switching to 2000lbs Derwent Is. From the annoyingly meagre info I can source I don't think the F3 combination of long nacelles and 2400lb Derwent IVs flew with 616 sqn during the war. Thus the jets which could conceiveably encountered each other were virtually identical in power output, and were almost identical in weight as well.

As for combat power, I wonder if more durable and usable engines would make up for a lack of outright speed for the F3 in actual combat.
 
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Following the Hitler is a maniac theme:p (what originality:p), let me propose he do something with the Ar234 he refused OTL: attack BC/8h AF bases.:eek: IIRC, they were fairly packed with aircraft, & even a small disruption could have serious effects. Or, if you want to go a different route, Ar234s against Coastal Command bases, to protect U-boats.:eek:
 
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