The 1000 Year Dynasty of the Kommenos TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Tongera, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    The Slavic Balkans can be assimilated to a large point, especially if it stays under Byzantium rule for the next 800 years. But it can't be completely assimilated, short of moving Slavs to Anatolia and other parts of the Empire every few generations and waiting for it to become assimilated slowly. The Byzantines did actually do this though, which gives me a idea....
     
  2. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know of a map of a somewhat detailed 1176 Anatolia, with settlement names, rivers and the particularler borders between Byzantium and the Seljuk Sultanate, as this would be needed for the next plan of the timeline?

    Edit: Or how i can super impose a 1176 map with settlement names over a map of Anatolia or vis versa, as that would be needed.

    Thanks.
     
  3. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anatolian_Seljuk_Sultanate.JPG (for showing the 1176 borders or close enough)
    +
    http://rbedrosian.com/Maps/sh26_70.htm (1190, but it should show the the details)

    might serve.

    But I don't know one specific map for 1176.

    http://www.zonu.com/fullsize-en/2009-09-17-730/South-Eastern-Europe-Map-1180-AD.html This is the closest I have seen - the border didn't change significantly, however.
     
  4. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that, that is certainly useful.
     
  5. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Here is a new update, dealing with the celebrations in Constantinople and the planning of new campaigns:



    Chapter 6: Celebration In Konstantinoupolis

    After the ambush and the withdrawal of the Turks, there is celebration in Ikonion (as it renamed from Konya) by the troops and the generals of the army, as their main Turkish foe was practically destroyed. The population in the city, once it arrives back from the west, is astounded by the Turkish defeat, but the Muslims part of the population is shocked and fearful, while the small Christian population is ecstatic in the change of governance. A messenger is sent to the capital of the Rhomaioi to announce the capture of Ikonion, to give time for the preparations of the celebration when Manuel arrives back in the capital and to prepare for the re-incorporation of the city back into the Rhomaios Basileia.

    When the celebration is over the next day, the city, against Manuel’s orders, is plundered and sacked, with much of the population, both Christain and Muslim, slaughtered with a large amount of buildings relating to commerce destroyed. Manuel is not pleased and has several of the worst offenders hanged and their commanders beheaded. Once the army starts to behave after this trouble, they are forced to help repair the walls, towers and gate, mostly to defend from any attack that might come from the remnants of the Seljuk Sultante, or any other Turkic Allies, unlikely as that is. Also during the repair of the walls, they discover that they probably killed around 5 or 6 six of Kilij’s sons, along with Kilij himself (it unknown about the other two or three, but one is known to have gotten away).

    After a few weeks, that is spent rebuilding the defences, assorting relevant troops to the new city, burying the bodies of the Turkish and Rhomaios soldiers, usually in mass graves just outside the city, they decide to leave back to Konstantinoupolis. Manuel appoints a temporary Strategos to the new city and theme, who shall be based at Konya for the time being, the Strategos will use the Sultan’s old palace for the time being, it is to be decided back in Konstantinoupolis whether to build a new residence or not. The Strategos is to be Andronikos Kontostephanos, an experienced general who is one of Manuel’s most trusted. He is to be left with 4,000 troops, to defend and garrison the new city, which should be sufficient to hold off any assault upon the now-strengthened walls, however if a siege were to happen, they would be relatively easily starved out, that isn’t expected to happen however.

    When the army actually leaves Ikonion after a few weeks, they have a somewhat peaceful march north to take Ankara (Ankyra in Greek) on the way back to the capital, although they harassed every now and Manuel decides to send a small detachment of 5000 men to Pisidia after they leave Ikonion (where Manuel left around 500 troops on the way to Ikonion) by Turcoman raiders, their raids are easily beaten off. When the detachment arrives at Philomelion, they find the small city under a type of on and off siege by raiders. The raiders are easily beaten off and scattered by a cavalry charge from the army. It becomes clear that few more troops is to be required here, so the general in charge of the detachment, John Kantakouzenos decides leaves around 300 more troops to help defend this important route to Ikonion and they then move back on their way to the capital.

    Manuel, with what is left of the army, decides to move north and take Ankara, thus shortening any journey from the capital to the new frontier, instead of going through south and through Philomelion, Ankara is going to be needed if the Rhomaioi wants to move east. When they arrive at the city in early 1177 after a march with siege equipment, they find the city is having new defences being organised rapidly and supplies being delivered by Kaykhusraw, Kilij’s son. Scouts find that the walls are for some reason damaged quite badly (most likely by siege and assault by a pretender) and with multiple gaps in them. Manuel orders his troops in battle formation and to march against the Seljuks, who are able to fight back capably (they were probably expected). Suffice to say, the Seljuks keep their distance and fight a retreat from the city (which they have no hope of defending), however when the Rhomaioi approaches close enough, they can see that a small part of the Turkish army is still in the city and they proceed to block the gap’s in the wall and send in the bulk of the army to finish off the remains of the army. They are able to destroy the army by the end of the day, in which case the army outside the walls, which was pelting arrows at the Rhomaios army, disappears by the end of the day. Manuel names the new city Ankyra and orders the defences rebuilt (he also orders the siege equipment inside the walls), this takes around 5 days and around 700 men are left to defend the city, which should be enough to defend in case of attack.

    They leave the new Rhomaios city of Ankyra (formerly known as Ankara) after a few days and continue their journey back to Konstaninoupolis, which takes around two months, due to fighting off more raiders and re-establishing control over several more cities along the way, which has direct land routes to Ikonion and should help keep the area defended. When they arrive at Scoutari to cross the Vosporos (Bosphorous), Manuel decides to send a messenger across first, so that the city may prepare for the victorious Basileus’s arrival, while he sorts out the crossing of the army. When the army and the Basileus arrive in Konstantinoupolis proper, the city is in wild celebration at the news of the Turkish defeat and the capture of Ikonion for the Basileia. Manuel is in such an ecstatic mood that he handles out the plunder of the soldier (to their annoyance) and gives out money and gifts to the populace on the way to the Palace of Blachernae (not helping the already overstretched treasury). The populace is ecstatic by this and celebrates for the next several days, with Manuel occasionally making an appearance with his son, Alexios and handing out gifts and the army parading and celebrating as well.

    Manuel is however energetic enough and eager enough to plan the next part of the re-conquest of Anatolia, also because he sees the advantage of striking soon after the Seljuks defeat, since he only captured Ikonion and he intends to go after the remains of the Seljuk Sultanate and the Turkish Emirs, which include the remains of the Danishmends, Ahlatshahs, Artiquds, Mengujekids, Saltukids and the any other smaller little Beyliks in Anatolia. But first he needs to rest and let the army rest as well before any other campaigns can take place. This doesn’t stop him planning the next part, which is to move further east to around the Lake Van area, which is to be used in eventual conquest of Armenia and Georgia (despite the somewhat massive leap). The plan is to strike within the next three years with 35,000 men, the ultimate objective would be the city of Van and perhaps further east than that, Manuel is suffice to say excited at the prospect of conquering the east, but first he needs the army and treasury to rest. He also intends to bring his young son Alexios, so that the boy may learn how to command a force (he is too young to personally command, so he will learn first), Manuel also intends to teach Alexios about running the state when he is old enough, but that is to happen later in the boy’s life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  6. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Tongera,

    The description and narrative is good;don't you think that it would liven the picture if we knew the close associates of Manuel? the promising generals? Alexius' friends? army research for better effectiveness since it is in the process of reconquest? that was the general observation;
    The campaign you are planning:winkytongue:lease Tongera,you didn't observe something odd? or odd movements? Look the map where is Ancara(or Ankyra) and look where is Ikonion;is it logical to take the army north,pass the level of Ancara,continue north to Constantinoupolis...for rest and triumph?
    If the emperor needed a triumph he could have it with few troops to parade in the capital no need to march and fight raiders with the entire army for two months in order to return shortly;certain cavalry units and some infantry units would have sufficed.Heavy equipment and the bulk of the army should stay near Ikonion and be supplied from the port of Antalya.The emperor(or his staff that we don't know...) should take care for replacements and additional units for the campaign ande lead then south east later towards Ancara,and my question is this:what good besieging Ancara would do to the recovering of Anatolia? the Turks would know that Manuel with his army is marching towards Ancara and they would prepare(to the extend of their ability) accordingly which means delays in march from siege equipment,time lost in the siege of Ancara,increase losses from predictable moves etc.You can act though as Epameinondas or monsieur Vicompte De Tyrenne did:dominate your enemy on the open field and don't waste time in sieges;you would rather appear in the doorstep of the Turks unexpectedly like Alexander or Gaston de Foix,inflict a shuttering defeat and the cities will fall out of Panic,loss of will to fight or out of no choice.
    Here if you like nutrualize Ancara,cut of its communications and supply and move on with a two-prong attack from south to north east and north to south east and chose your objectives.
    Just a small help....
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  7. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the help and suggestions. But when you write though, can you put parts of it in different paragraphs, so it is easier to read?

    Also, good point about Ankyra, i wasn't quite sure if the city was Byzantine or not and if it wasn't, then Manuel would probably go through Philomelion on the way to Ikonion, since it was the overall objective and i assumed it would be easier.

    But i will implement the suggestions about Ankyra in this update and the other ones in later updates when i can, since their might not be enough information and sources that i can't use. But i will implement when i can.
     
  8. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Correct Tongera,many suggestions applied generally to the plot and can be used in various updates;for the first time I give you an example of the use of the fleet and ,in the same example,the fleet could have been used
    in a variety of ways after the death of Kilij Arslan.
     
  9. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I just made some new changes to the last chapter, in case anyone wants to read.
     
  10. cimon Well-Known Member

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    The text is slighty improved;what is confusing is "within three years" with '35000' men.
    Tongera,even today the War Planning Staffs of various leading armies cannot make accurate operational plans for more than a year,the immediate future will be covered in general lines denoting intentions at best and possible expectations of production (that would dictate the extend of future operations in a modern army)
    Why? because you are never too certain about the outcome of this year's campaign,successes,losses,distances,logistics,lines of communication(very important for reserves and heavy supply-here comes the fleet to assist wherever possible) you start with 35000 and you ascertain you reserves and where they are stationed and how long will they need to reach you for the next phase of operation.
    An example of unpredictability,is the campaigns of emperor Basil II(the Bulgar Slayer) against Bulgaria;I am sure that when he started his campaign he didn't expect that it would take him fourty(40) years to conclude it!
    THE BETTER and MORE ACCURATE the INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR ENEMY AND THE CONDITION OF THE LAND THE BETTER PREPARED YOU WILL BE.
     
  11. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I think i understand what you are saying. What i am saying though is the army will have 35,000 men within three years for the campaign. They will try and make decent intelligence gathering, logistic preparations. Anyhow, they are going to try to succeed in the campaign because its a campaign of conquest. Although the war may be unpredicatable and probably will be, they are still going to try.
     
  12. cimon Well-Known Member

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    How many will you have to start with? because if you wait three years things will be quite different and you may have other surprises which may not be that pleasant,and,how do you know that your ceiling of 35000 will be adequate? If you start the campaign with thirty five thousand,you will never know what you will have at the end of the year,what will you do if the principalities unite before the common infidel danger? how do you know they will not ally with the surviving Arslan's son after dictating to him their own terms?

    Don't take it as criticism please,but this are questions that you would be asking yourself;your plot must have a will of its own to be convincing,to look real it is never a game whereby you play chess both sides alone,but the black must make mat in two moves...that's never persuasive.
    A small note:an army in Europe is never an army in Anatolia;much more cavalry is needed in Anatolia to meet the future...
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2012
  13. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    You've given me some thought. I will talk about this in the future updates, when i start writing again.
     
  14. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any decent and detailed sources for the Peace Of Venice and Byzantine involvement in Italy leading up to it? As i think i got an idea on how the Byantines can get Bari and some other cities in Italy, but i want to make sure.
     
  15. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Tongera,
    For the treaty itself look for the Avalon Project of Yale law School.
    also:"12th Century Treaties" or "Treaties of The Holy See"-Google them
     
  16. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    That is useful, thanks.

    Also do you know a list of who was the Megas Logothete right up until around 1190 ish? The next update is mainly about economics, and i want to be accurate.
     
  17. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Scratch that last part.

    Does anyone know of a website or book (perferably one that can be read online) that can help me with the economy of Medieval Anatolia, perferably the Central Plateau region, especially of Ankara and Konya?

    Bonus points for detailed websites/books and/or personal information on the subject.

    Thanks.
     
  18. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Apologies for the wait, but i had trouble, which will probably be reflected in this chapter:


    Chapter 7: A Year Of Peace

    In the weeks after the celebrations in the Empire (except in the new territories, where there have already been a rebellion), the mood has calmed down and the people have returned to normality. Manuel realizes several problems in the Empire, but the two most prominent are the treasury (mostly by him spending to the point of loss for the Empire) and the rebellious Turks in the new lands captured. The problem in the treasury is mainly spending to do with seekers of patronage, ceremonial events, palace building, which is of no practical value, while the spending on the Rhomaios army, navy is of practical value. Manuel orders his Megas Logothetes (Chancellor) Ioannes Doukas, a Greek from a branch of the aristocratic Doukas family in Smyrna, to sort through the expenses and sort the treasury out and cut the unnecessary and impractical spending, as Manuel wants to be ready and free of distractions for when the next set of campaigning comes along.

    Ioannes Doukas is a somewhat capable Megas Logothetes, with experience that would be useful in the task set to him. Ioannes first sets out by advising Manuel to stop the patronage, ceremonial events and the unnecessary place building, as these cost far too much money and have the cost the Basileia much (which has surprised the Legothetes). Manuel agrees to them, although he does insist on ceremonies when there are celebrations or on important occassions, which Ioannes reluctantly agree to. He also has an easier job in this due to the new conquests of the Central Anatolian Plateau, with the new trade routes between Ankyra and Ikonion, which will bring extra gold in eventually and because of Turkish and Turcoman raids that used to happen frequently, now happen infrequently and when they do happen, they happen in the Central Plateau and not in the rich and well developed Western part of Anatolia.

    The second problem is the rebellious new subjects in the area’s that were conquered, which consist mostly of Turks and Turcomans, with other unhappy subjects. The Strategos of the new Thema, Andronikos Kontostephanos is having trouble constantly putting down new rebellions, which while he is a capable general and a capable administrator, he can only do so much with the troops sent to him. Andronikos decides to permanently weaken the Turks in the area by doing several things: Weaken the Turkish nobles in the area and replace them with Greek nobles, since the Turkish nobles often fund the rebellions and often leads the rebellions in the provinces. Send the more rebellious Turks across the Bosporus into the Balkans and split them up, that way they won’t be able to lead among the other Turks, although this will lead to several problems. The other possible solution is to settle Greeks into the Central Plateau if the rebellious Turks are sent across the Bosporus, as they can be used to tend to farming, tending to the animals that graze in the new lands, if the Turks are sent across, they can at least continue working the land and tending to the animals.

    Late 1177:

    It is decided eventually to do a combination of these. The first thing that is to be done is to take the land of the Turkish nobles and give them to Greek nobles, so that any moving of peasants can be done somewhat more easily and any potential rebellions could be effectively leaderless. The first part of the moving goes quite roughly, with the nobles resisting with private troops and the Turkish peasants helping them resist in Ankyra. It takes a few battles to subdue the Turkish nobles, although some escape and start performing raids on the new territories, which complicates matter, but overall, moving the nobles across the Bosporus into Greece is a success and any other rebellions are crushed without the leadership from the nobles. The Turkish nobles are moved with trouble, but it is done and it decided to leave the Turkish peasants alone, at least until the Greek nobles can comes in and replace the Turkish nobles in the land.
     
  19. lordyu Well-Known Member

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    You could simply do what the empire usualy did, by expelling the Turcomans, striping large landowners of there lands, settleing greeks, and doing a making it difficult to be a muslim in the empire. there should be a significant greek population there already and many turks would willingly leave to go to turkish controled lands. The lands in the north like Bucellarians and turkish controled Paphlagonia should stil have greek majority.
     
  20. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I will deal with the impact of this and the resettling of peasants Turks in Anatolia in the next chapter. I will involve a bit of expelling and resettling. Paphlagonia was already part of the Empire for a few years before this, i think it would still be Greek majority.

    You wouldn't happen to know anything about Central Plateau of Anatolia economy do you? Besides animal rearing and grazing, which is what i know.