The 1000 Year Dynasty of the Kommenos TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Tongera, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. cimon Well-Known Member

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    OK,Let's talk about the oncoming Turks:you have two choices,but before that,I think you should show some indication of numbers:how many Byzantines were there in Konya,what were their losses in the siege? how many Christians were in Konya? how many could be used in the defence?
    1) Either you leave the breach inviting in and set a trap inside around the breach,cavalry outside to draw the Turks,with Christians on the walls so the Turks would think that the city is defended,but no time to repair the breach adequately(some some rushes and would only) suprised by the speed of Turkish advance;or
    2) The army to form an inverse U and the city at the top of the inversed part is the city.the legs directed slightly outwards would include defense ditches
    with calthrops in the front or anything else similar.Reseves between the legs,ready to intervene where necessary.Palisades behind the ditches and the calthrops and assorted nausties would be helpful.The rest you can fill it yourself...
     
  2. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I fought of an idea a few days ago, i am writing it out but it might be a while. It does involve getting the Turks in the city and in close combat.
     
  3. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Just a few questions before i finish the update:

    When the Greeks in Anatolia converted and assimilating to Islam and Turkish resepectively in the middle ages, how did it work and how long did it take for the Greeks in Western Anatolia to convert and assimilate till there was a Turkish majority?

    How long would it take for the Turks in Central Anatolia to become a minority and to convert to and assimilate to Orthodox and Greek respectively?

    Is there any value of using spearmen in tightly packed spaces against other infantry (mostly light infantry with bits of heavy thrown in)?

    Would Varangian Guards tear apart other infantry and cavalry? How long would it take?

    Also is there a website where i can type in the name of a city in and then it comes up with a Greek name, which is written in English, i think it's something to do with etymologies (Istanbul - Konstantinoupolis, Syracouse - Syracouses, Trebizond - Trapezous, Antankya - Antiocheia etc)?



    The answers to these questions would help me in this update and future ones, as it would help me in the one i am doing and help think and plan future ones (due to holes in my knowledge about certain stuff etc).

    Thanks for any potential help.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  4. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    This is the new chapter, since it is heavily combat based (which i properly suck at), it won't be that good and very flawed and full of holes and i won't focus on comabt anymore, at least as heavily. I just thought it would be a good idea to set up the rest of the timeline. Also, can someone help with the answer to the post above or point me in the right direction, please? Well, here it is below and enjoy:


    Chapter 5: Ambush Inside Konya

    When the Turkish army arrives outside Konya (they approach the city at a distance and move to the west gate, where the main assault is expected to take place and where the only entrance to the city is) they find that a great and bloody assault has taken place, inflicting many casualties on the Rhomaios soldiers (combine the casualties here and on the Rhomaios army that tried to ambush the Seljuk army earlier and was promptly destroyed, then they would be heavy indeed).

    The Turks notice that there are barely any dead Turks and most of the dead bodies are wearing Rhomaios armour, also much of the siege equipment scattered apart all over the plains outside Konya. They also notice the two massive holes in the walls, which Kilij assumes the Rhomaioi had managed to get into the city. He sends several groups of scouts in the city to search for any survivors but mostly for any presence of the Rhomaioi.

    When the scouts arrive back from the city after around an hour, the scouts report that the city is entirely empty, devoid of both soldiers and the natural population (they however didn’t look inside the buildings near the center nor did they check the far Eastern part of the city, since they entered from the Western gate). Kilij finds this understandably surprising and odd, as a large and important capital city shouldn’t be devoid of the population, even if most fled, some would be left over.

    Unknown to Kilij however the population was quickly thrown out of the city and marched several miles westward, so that they won’t be harmed and won’t be able to alert the Turks to the Rhomaios that are hiding in the city. They are to be allowed back into the city once the battle is over, as from orders by Manuel.

    When the bulk of the Turkish army cautiously marches into the city, the army discovers that a large amount of dead Turkish bodies, which seems larger losses than previously thought. However larger losses are still from the Rhomaioi. However the city seems devoid of the population, but it didn’t seem empty of everyone and the majority of the army cautiously marches through all the streets to center. As a result, Kilij leaves a portion of the army outside, so that the army inside can be alerted in case of the Rhomaioi approaching, or anyone for that matter.

    The Rhomaios army that lead the population out of the city to the west begins to march back to the city, as per their orders. Their goal is to set up defensive positions outside the destroyed walls and the gates and prevent any of the Turks from escaping from the ambush that is about to happen. They are to also block the population from returning to the city until the battle is over, so no bad blood and no potential revolts later because of them getting in the way and are mistaken in the heat of battle for Turks.

    When the majority of the Seljuk army reaches the center of the city, a messenger is sent to Kilij and his sons, who then proceed to move to the center of the city while his son Kaykhusraw stays with the army outside the walls. When they get to the center, Kilij gives the order to fan out and check each of the buildings and the far Eastern side of the city, while Kilij and his family waits for any news and to plan the rebuilding. This is when the Rhomaioi springs their trap.

    The plan for the actual ambush was to wait for a significant portion of the army to enter the center of the city, and then spring out and use the heavy infantry and spearmen to push the Turks that try and escape back from the roads back into the center and slaughter them, where there heavy infantry have an advantage in close combat, while the archers fire over them. They also have two units of Varangian Guards in the buildings on the center itself, where they will spring out and destroy the flanks and rear of the engaged Turks. But for the plan to succeed, total surprise is needed, that is why the population was moved out of the city, so they don’t alert the Turks to the plan and not get in between the battling armies. The Rhomaios army is to be completely silent and make it look like the city is empty of Rhomaios trops, also to wait patiently for the attack, which depends on this, which the army obeys.

    When the trap is sprung, the Turks are caught off guard and start to panic. Kilij is able to send his sons to take control of the infantry and has the infantry get ready and try to stop the Rhomaios from getting through to the center while having the capable Turkish archers firing over the Turkish infantry while Kilij rallies his troops to successfully stand and fight, he quickly realises there is no escape and resolves to fight to the death. The few Turkish bodyguard cavalry and infantry that accompany Kilij stay close for the inevitable.

    When the Rhomaioi spring their trap, they put the spearmen in front and orders them to push, with more spearmen behind them to replace any that are killed at the front. The heavy infantry behind them are to keep close and kill any Turk that somehow gets behind the spearmen, thus insuring no-one escapes the square alive. The Rhomaios archers also, have a role, they are to stay behind the buildings and fire into the center (although they are inaccurate) to inflict casualties.

    The Rhomaios army that is to approach the walls once they forced the population of Konya, which they do, but they discover the Turkish defenders and pickets there, who are waiting outside the walls. They try and approach the Turkish detachment by going to a part of the wall that they can hug and then sneak up on them. But an Turkish picket on the non-destroyed part of the wall sees them when they get close and alerts the Turks outside the walls. The Rhomaioi charge, they are able to catch and destroy a part of the Turkish detachment, but the majority and Kaykhursaw are able to get away. The Rhomaios cavalry promptly dismounts inside the city and starts to fight the Turkish pickets on the walls, while the Rhomaios infantry and archers try and prevent the Turkish archer cavalry from inflicting damage and getting them to flee.

    Inside the city, the Rhomaios spearmen are able to push back the Turkish infantry (at a heavy cost) and they have enough room to let the heavy infantry behind them to fan out, which they promptly do. While that is happening, the Varangian guards who are watching are given the orders by Manuel, who is inside the building with them to run out and charge Kilij and his bodyguards in the center. They run out and charge straight into the bodyguards of the Turks, who are surprised and unable to respond in time, Kilij is killed while fighting the Varangians and so is his bodyguards. The Turks are now seriously panicked, but they keep fighting, although they are quickly taken care of when they attacked in the front by spearmen, flanks by heavy infantry and they are finally torn apart by the Varangians, who plough into them when they are finished with the cavalry in the center. The Turks are promptly torn apart and the center is littered with dead once the fighting is over, it looks like not one from the Turkish army in the center has survived.

    When they are done, Manuel receives a message from the units outside the square, they have secured the walls and prevented several units from the Turkish army that wasn’t trapped in the ambush from leaving, although they are being harassed from both sides, but they would help as soon as possible. When the army is able to finish the Turkish detachments in the city (after chasing them and hunting them), the army is focused on the defence of the city and the Turks outside the walls realise they can’t win and then withdraw at night.
     
  5. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Western Anatolia is still at least a good part Greek and Orthodox for over another century from your POD, but I don't know how quickly things changed from there.

    Several generations to make it deep rooted, but you can probably get Greek speaking fairly quickly after conquest. Orthodoxy probably takes longer.

    Assuming minimal (borderline?) ethnic cleansing - y'know, the Byzantine practice of breaking up groups they found to be a problem and moving them across the empire, so that you'd see Serbs put in Anatolia and Turks put in (what is now) Albania. . . I'd guesstimate in the range of the late 13th century, but that's pulled from my hat.

    The Crete was retaken in the 10th century and as far as I know is pretty clearly successfully remade before the end of the Macedonians (mid-11th century) - but that was a smaller area.

    Still, it's one of our best examples of the Byzantines reByzantinizing a place.

    The old Bulgarian Empire's lands were at least semi-Hellenized by this point (the 1170s), but religion wasn't a factor.

    Yes. Spears are boringly standard infantry weapons, at least in the West, but versus nonspearmen - spears have reach. Very useful.

    Of course, if those foes get close enough that the spear reach advantage is not an advantage, that's a problem, but the spearmen should have a secondary weapon for those situations - a short sword, probably.

    Let me put it this way: Yes. :D They were extremely effective at what they did - although I wouldn't want them vs. cavalry except on their terms.

    There might be, but I don't know of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  6. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Jun 20, 2011
    You are quite promising in describing battle scenes,with a bit more attention to detal and a little more experience,congratulations for a good start.

    You could actually make it clear how the main gate was barred(actually cities with the size of Ikonion have at least as many main gates as the roads that lead to the city otherwise,with one gate only,you create terrible congestion.)

    The Turkish troops were unfamiliar with the directions and structural planning of the city so panic could be present from the very start of the ambush.Don't forget that in a city of congested single story flat roofed Eastern type city,roofs can be used by javelliners and archers who could move from roof top to roof top firing to add to the panic and disintergration of Turkish unit cohesion.
    The Byzantine army outside the city could ambush the Turkish contingent
    outside the city by laying an ambush astride the Turkish line of retreat.
    Varangians can really cause great losses to cavalry in the confined spaces of the city(obviously to infantry as well).
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  7. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't expecting the praise about the battle scenes, i thought i wasn't that good at it. Thanks for that.

    I assume when you mean the gate, you mean the start of the siege?

    I like the point about javelins on the roof, i will edit the update later.

    Well the Byzantines did ambush the Turkish contingent outside the walls, just that some got away.
     
  8. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Exactly...
     
  9. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    "Exactly" fot what, exactly?
     
  10. Consul Arrianus Well-Known Member

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    Back to the title (thousend years old dynasty): in Germany there was an so called "thousend years old Reich", it didn't exist for long though. There were chancellors who ruled longer than that :D, so your dynasty (Comnenoi) already reached this amout of time.
     
  11. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    That is a good point, except that this timeline is alternative history, has a POD far back enough that history should be radically different becaus eof butterflies, is set in Greece, Anatolia mainly, is about the Byzantine Empire which is a Greek speaking and Orthodox, not German and other Christain demoniations, whatever you call it.

    Other than that, you got me.:p
     
  12. cimon Well-Known Member

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    The city gate Tongera!you didn't mention it at all.How was it barred for the Turks to go in or out?
     
  13. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Don't you know encouragement is half the game?you will never write well if we don't boost your confidence! don't forget,WE are the readers;we will increase your confidence so that you can let your imagination free...
    You have the elements needed and the spark to do good work;a little push and the story becomes better and better...
    try some sea landings in future;don't forget that the ships come near the beach so horses and they get out from the side of the hold.
     
  14. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the encouragement, i will need to start writing again tonight. Although i need to do a bit of research first.

    Also, what do you propose i do sea landings on? Are there any rebellious islands in the Aegan or Cyprus? First though, The Central Plateau and Eastern Anatolia needs to be subdued and conquered first.
     
  15. cimon Well-Known Member

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    That is absolutely correct.
     
  16. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    That is quite... vague.

    First things first, the Byzanitnes need to conquer the Central Plateau and Eastern Anatolia. Then i can think about going further afield, namely Syria, Armenia and Georgia. I am also thinking about them having Malta and Sicily. Maybe Egypt as well.
     
  17. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Since you speak about Syria,Byzantines need Antiochia as soon as possible;there is where the silk road ends and the money for taxes and port dues are needed when you are campaigning.
    Be careful with the treatment of Georgia;it is strong although small,very near Byzantium in education and mentality,so marriage ties are desirable so it it will be assimilated smoothly.Malta and Sicily are a must along with south Italy where Greek language and traditions are still strong and the Greek element is considerable.Probably later you will need to ally and help the knights Hospitallers...but we can talk about that later...now egypt, will give you passage to the Indian Ocean where the possibilities are unlimited,you will need alliance with Copts of Abyssinia and Egypt who are Orthodox etc,but I will like to talk about it when the time comes....
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  18. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Let's just deal with Anatolia first, then it would probably be Antioch next, then Georgia and Armenia. I will figure out something for later.
     
  19. Consul Arrianus Well-Known Member

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    I believe Egypt will fall when firearms are invented. The Mamluks refused to use them so the Ottoman conquered all of Egypt and Palestine in just 2 battles, i guess. For sure the Byzantines have to face more resistance since they aren't Muslims. Syria, Siciliy and southern Italy have to be conquered and Georgia and Armenia diplomatically annexed. I the times of nationalism Egypt (and maybe the Slavic Balkans too) will get lost again but the rest will stay byzantine.
     
  20. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Jun 20, 2011
    A strong empire doesn't have to wait that long;It can also stir Aithiopia
    to the south of the mamelukes;a lot of 'Slavic' Balcans can be assimilated.