The 1000 Year Dynasty of the Kommenos TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Tongera, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    From the books and sources i use about Manuel, i can see him assaulting the settlement, despite the inevitably heavy cost in terms of his men because of the trouble the Seljuks have been and how Manuel was in OTL, excitable and energetic, so an assault it is.

    If you mean about the whole campaign? Well, he is going to have to rest for a while and go back to the capital and celebrate. I can't really see him taking back Anatolia in this season. He is going to prepare, plan and eventually take it back, hopefully.
     
  2. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Yeah. I'm sure he'll be advised against it, but . . .

    Not sure how costly it will be, as apparently Kilij and (much of) his army is not there, but it should be bloody enough to serve as a reminder of why assaults are overrated.

    And that's still possible - as in, even if Kilij's position sucks, Manuel has only just begun to claw the plateau away.
     
  3. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    It will be a while before the plateau is retaken, no doubt about that.
     
  4. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I made the changes relating to a few suggestions, mostly numbers of ladders and forced march bit.
     
  5. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    This should hopefully answer few questions about what Kilij and his family are doing:


    Chapter 3: Kilij’s Reinforcements

    After the somewhat crippling defeat at Myriokephalon, Kilij Arslan had some problems, namely lack of troops to take on the Rhomaios army and that the troops left over from the battle is seriously understrength and badly demoralized. He knew that he had to replenish his troop numbers and get probably more troops to fight the Rhomaios, but from where? He decided to go east, to the Sokmenli Beylik, near Lake Van, as they have the troops they need, but he needs to get there quickly, and then return very quickly as well, to defeat the Rhomaios (he leaves a part of the army in Konya to defend it), but he leaves most of his army 10 miles east of the city (while one of his sons gather troops for the surrounding area), he commands one his sons to harass the Rhomaios army on their march, he takes only his bodyguards. The troops from the Beyliks are however somewhat undisciplined, but Kilij hopes to use the troops in the open field, where he can hopefully keep control of them and use them to the max (while keeping them away from the Rhomaios heavy infantry).

    When he arrives at Lake Van however (after around a month, as he tries to gather some more soldiers from his vassals, but to no avail), the Bey, Nasireddin Muhammed Sokmen II refuses to hand over, or indeed loan any troops, as he is preparing for raids on the areas north of his domain (mostly with the Georgian Kingdom). It is only when Kilij is able to convince the old man after around 2 days of saying would happen when the Rhomaios army arrives (namely force converting, even Kilij knows that isn’t true, enslaving as well) that he reluctantly hands over the troops (keeping a small army still). On the forced march back to Konya, Kilij is able to pick up even more troops, force some peasants, even hire a few hundred mercenaries (and even bully a few from his vassals, using his new army for this purpose), he is surprisingly able to amass an bigger army than the first one, his new army contains around 25,000 men, which he intends to use (despite a large part being undisciplined and a fair part of the conscripts using farming equipment). It takes arounds two weeks to assemble the new army from rounds to Lake Van and back, which takes around a month, he realises that the city is under siege, or the Rhomaios army is near it (he hopes that is son is able to slow the army down).
    While he is away, his son Kaykhusraw, who is leading the remnants of the Turkish army by harassing the Rhomaios army (and is trying to destroy the siege equipment, mostly the siege towers and battering rams) and directing the Turcomen against them (they mostly go after loot and prisoners though, although they are still of use), which fails to get the Rhomaios to stop or even slow down. When that fails, he decides to try to lure out parts of the army and destroy them, which also fails ( proably due to Manuels strict orders).

    He eventually realises that he isn’t going to succeed by defeating or even slowing down the Rhomaios army, so he decides to try diplomacy. He sends a diplomat to approach the Rhomaios army and try and get audience with Manuel, to offer a peace term (which is probably going to annoy Kilij), even though the deal would be worthless, but he decides to give it a shot anyway. The diplomat only reaches the Rhomaios army when it is laying siege to Konya and predictably, the diplomat fails to convince Manuel to abandon the siege, as Manuel says “Victory is too close” and is then promptly sent away back to the Turks. Kaykhusraw then receives a message from a courier, saying that his father has returned with an army to fight the Rhomaios, and he should return to the east of the city.




    Does this answer enough questions accurately? Could i improve on it by giving more detail, anything not making sense etc? Feedback would be useful.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  6. cimon Well-Known Member

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    How many days did it take Kilij to go North?
    How many days did it take for the reinforcing army to assemble?
    How many days now for that army to return to Konya?
    Wasn't it enough time for the Byzantines to dig their double protective ring around the city?
     
  7. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I will edit the timeline to answer those questions. Other than that, was that update ok? I also edited both chapter 2 and 3 to reflect the new edits.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  8. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Chapter 4: Assault On Konya

    The siege assault is to happen as quickly as possible (against the generals leading the units and the ones advising Manuel), so to surprise the defenders and to give them little time to react to any attacks, with the two armies on the flanks attacking at the same time (the two armies risk not having as much force as one army attacking one part of the wall). The defenders seem to be centered on the main wall, with the gate, while the other defenders are on the ramparts to the side of the main wall. The pickets (scouts) at the back of the army will have to check for a counter attack that probably will come from the Turks (Turcomans could actually help with the attack, as they haven’t bothered the Rhomaios army since they began the siege), however they should have an easy time, as the city is surrounded by flat plains and they have light cavalry at the flanks of the two armies assaulting to alert them quickly to any potential attacks that may come from the flanks. There shall also be an army behind the attacking units (also to defend the engineers that are building defensive fortifications, mostly trenches, stakes and the like) and where Manuel is stationed to watch the battle, as the Turks are expected to counter attack here and if they don’t counter attack here, then the army can quickly move to help any units under attack.

    The attack begins two day after the plan is decided (to give the troops time to get into position to attack), the attack goes right to plan, as the Turks are confused by the three pronged assault aim at different parts of the wall, the Turks had their men in place at a particularly point in the wall and have to rush men to the parts of the wall where the siege towers and ladders are going. When the Rhomaios troops approach the walls, they come under fire from Turkish archers, which don’t inflict as much casualties on the army approaching the center gate. The army approaching the wall to the left, and the army to the right of the center army comes under very heavy fire (as that where the bulk of the defenders were based at first) and suffer heavy casualties. But the battering ram reaches the gate first and begins to batter the gates while the defenders throw anything at the people manning the battering ram underneath (usually rocks from murder holes, with a bit of tar thrown at them now and again), while that happens the Rhomaioi on the left of the battering ram reaches the walls with their siege equipment and they begin to scale the walls once they get the siege equipment in place. The Rhomaioi manning the siege equipment to the right of the battering ram start to come under fire attacks aimed at the siege equipment, the men react by moving as quickly as they can towards the walls.

    By the time this is happening however, the mining teams have been digging for several days and have nearly gotten into position to dig to the final stretch to cause one of the walls to collapse, they however are going to wait until the attackers are near the walls (the miners are going for a different part of the walls, so as to not cause unnecessary casualties), then blow the walls so that the heavy infantry can rush through the walls, they then secure them while the heavy cavalry can scramble over.

    By the time the Rhomaioi on the right reaches the walls, one of the siege towers is destroyed, but the two others siege towers are able to reach the walls and the men are able to start climbing the walls. One of the walls about 100 feet to the right of the western most siege assault, a bang is heard and the soldiers fighting on the walls see heavy cavalry stream in through a gap in the wall, which catches the lightly armoured Turks on the ground of guard and causes them to retreat. The Turks on the wall then promptly start to panic and then start trying to withdraw, but the Rhomaios troops on the walls keep up the pressure and continue to attack.

    The battle inside the actual city is difficult, as the Turkish light infantry use hit and run attacks and generally ambush any units that gets separated from the core of their units. It is a bloody affair. By the time the battering ram reaches the gate, it isn’t needed, as Manuel decides to send the cavalry over the rubble (impatience) and the soldiers on the walls are able to open the gate. The Rhomaios army is able to sweep through and tear apart the Turkish soldiers on the ground. The rest of the battle for the city lasts for a few more hours before the remnants of the Turkish army surrendered. They are taken prisoner and promptly put into the city and the army begins to pillage and loot. Manuel decides to let the soldier’s loot and pillage before the city is given back to the Turks, as a lesson and to harm the Turks (he decides to vassalize the Turks at this point and inflict humiliating terms, despite his declining of the Turkish diplomats proposal earlier).

    A picket that is keeping an eye on the plains surrounding Konya reports back to Manuel that a massive Turkish force is approaching the army from the east and will be there soon. Manuel orders the army guarding the rear of the army to keep the Turkish army busy and keep them at bay for as long as possible while he tries to bring his under control and gets them ready for battle. When the Rhomaioi receives more detailed reports of the Turkish army, composition and numbers, Manuel and the generals decide to somehow get the Turkish army inside the city and ambush them, as fighting in the open plains will lead to almost certain defeat. They prepare their men in their positions and wait for the Turkish attack.






    I realise how inaquedate and how unknowledgable about siege warfare i am, so any suggestions to improve this would be fine and probably much appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  9. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Also, anyone knows how to lure the Turks into the city and annihilate them, to make it more convincing?

    Thanks.
     
  10. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I will try and get another update up before the board closes down. If not, i should have several when it comes back up. Hopefully.
     
  11. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Is there any actual interest in this timeline? If there is, can someone at least acknowledge?
     
  12. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    I'm interested, I've just put in my two bits on the first few parts already.

    I'm willing to help, but I'm not here to play editor.
     
  13. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for acknowledging. Fair enough about the editor part, it is just that i am inexperienced when writing about battles and timelines.

    I should have update by tomorrow, hopefully.
     
  14. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    That's alright, I just don't want to be expected to comment every update if nothing strikes me as "Okay, he has to be told this now." good or ill.
     
  15. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Before i post the next update up, i need to find out something about the city of Konya in 1176. How many people roughly and what is the Greek/Turkish and Orthodox/Muslim composition? As it would help greatly in this update and the next one, along with a few others actually. Would around 20,000 people sound about right?
     
  16. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I just brought Crusader Kings 2 Collection and SOI. The update might be a while.
     
  17. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

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    :confused: i dont get it. Armies are much stronger on defence than offence. Romans behind even breached walls are stronger than in the open field.

    So, theyre going to give up their defensive advantage and just hand itto the turks?
     
  18. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Not sure on the composition, but the population figure sounds right - maybe on the high end, but not troublingly so.
     
  19. Fredrick II Barbarossa Holy Roman Emperor

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    Hmm good updates so far. However how long did the sieging take. Reason is usually your scenario only happens in very unlikely situations. Usually a siege lasts from anywhere beetween a couple months to like 9 months depnding on the attacking army and the number of defenders. So Yeah... other than that it seems to be good timeline
     
  20. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I have written a part of the chapter, it should explain adequately what happens next.

    I figured it would be a normal size for a capital city in the middle ages.

    Thanks for the compliment. I know it can seem like a short siege, but it is an assault, anyhow Mauel i think "would want to get it over with", as from what i read about him, he seems energetic and capable, but sometimes "hoth headed" if that is the correct word for it. Also i realised recently how long medieval sieges can take and i think i made the changes at least.