The 1000 Year Dynasty of the Kommenos TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Tongera, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    So, there could be descendants from the Hittite royal family in Anatolia, Komneno, even as far back as the Pharoahs in Egypt etc?
     
  2. Herzen's love-child rootless cosmopolitan

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    You never know....
    There are surviving Hohenzollern. Descendants from various previous royal houses of France. etc. etc. etc. Wonder if there are any Hohenstaufen left? That would be cool.
     
  3. cimon Well-Known Member

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    The time line is promising,becareful with battles,it may not sound very important but you may find that certain actions may sound highly improbable.
    What about the very powerful then Byzantine navy? it could have landed several thousand men,astride the line of communications of Kilij Arslan which would have forced the Seljuks to abandon the pass.In war,everything not in the line of battle,it is not in its place(Ardan dy Pick).
    That was only an example,that you have to think all means available for an all round action.The Seljuks running like that is not probable,perhaps it could under a gross misunderstanding,but it is not in the odds;
    catapelts firing flaming rocks are in the odds and could start a bombardment until light infantry followed by archers could make a probe for the hights as another example that would force the Turks to show their hand... etc
    Otherwise follow the good work;odd points here and there are bound to crop up every now and then and we will talk again...keep up the good work.
     
  4. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the kind words. I thought about a naval action and landing actually, but decided against it because Myriokephalon is too far inland (so is Konya) and it would be better to have the troops to march with the main army. Also because i didn't know how to write it.
     
  5. cimon Well-Known Member

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    I thought you would say that! don't you know that they were in power until 1918? seven hundred years in power...
     
  6. Herzen's love-child rootless cosmopolitan

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    I'll give you 700 years (& some change) if we are counting from when Count Rudolph was chosen "King of the Romans". A lot less if we count when the Hapsburg become a true imperial power---which would be in the 15th Cent., I believe. Of course as Holy Roman emperors, they only nominally held much of their lands. But I quibble... :D
     
  7. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Here is the second chapter of the timeline: It involves the marching to and siege of Konya:


    Chapter 2: March And Siege Of Konya

    The forced march to Konya is an easier march than the march to the mountain pass at Myriokephalon, as the troops got enough water and supplies after they went through the mountain pass, it is however beset by difficulties such as persistent attacks by Turcoman raiders on the baggage trains, which contains supplies and loot mainly, but the Turcoman raiders ignore the siege equipment and main army completely, Manuel notes that it seems they are only interested in loot and probably not under the command of the Seljuk Sultan. Seljuk raids are however annoying, constant and is somewhat disciplined and are aimed at the siege equipment and constantly harassing the main army with attacks and raids. Manuel orders his generals to absolutely prevent the army’s main units to stop marching and to attack the Seljuk and to keep the army moving at all costs, while ordering skirmishers to defend the siege equipment from Seljuk attacks, as they don’t want to run out of supplies and don’t want to get bogged down fighting every single raid that happens. The villages and towns on the route to Konya are looted for supplies and general loot for the soldiers, usually from Turks and Muslims (but not just them, with Greeks and Orthodox suffering much less), which causes fights with the villagers and several villages and towns along the way are massacred and cleared of the population (such as Beysehir, Manuel leaves around 500 troops too guard the city, for when they go back to Konstantinoupolis and to keep it clear), which Manuel and his generals has trouble stopping, but they try to get them to move on as fast as possible (difficult considering the siege euipment, mostly because of the battering ram and siege tower, which Manuel knew he really should have built when he got to Konya), so that they can get to Konya as soon as possible, which takes around a month to get too.

    On the way to Konya, the raids by Seljuk troops stop (while raids by Turcoman riders continue as normal), which makes Manuel and his generals suspicious, because why would the raids stop all of a sudden? As a result of this, Manuel decides to send scouts ahead to where ever there may be an ambush, such as through any passes where they may be ambushed from above, through heavily forested areas etc, no Turks are found by the scouts at possible ambush sites, which relaxes Manuel a bit as he doesn’t have to worry about any attacks and can keep moving towards Konya.

    When the army reaches Konya, with 29,000 men (some are wounded and taken back to Konstantinoupolis, while the dead are left where they are killed), Manuel orders the city to be surrounded by his troops, which are more than enough to prevent supplies getting in the city. He realises that assaulting the city could cause heavy casualties from his men, as he assumes the bulk of the army is within the city, so he decides to starve out the defenders of the city until they surrender or sally out, so he can destroy them.

    Around 2 months after the siege begins, a diplomat approaches the camp where Manuel is, from the direction of the hills around the city, where the diplomat offers favourable terms to the Basileus, the terms are all territories formerly belonging to the Danishmends are to be handed over, the Sultante is to become a vassal to the Rhomaioi, pay an annual tribute of half the Seljuk income while giving a majority of the territory west of Konya to the Rhomaioi. Manuel refuses the terms, as he sees the chance to destroy and eventually re-absorb the Turks in Anatolia back into the empire, but he knows there will be problems re-assimilating them back, but he decides it is worth it to be free of the Turks as a potentially dangerous and annoying force. When Manuel announces his decision to the Turkish diplomat, the diplomat seems disappointed in the decision by Manuel and is escorted out of the camp. Manuel notices that the diplomat walks to the hills surrounding the camp and orders his generals to keep their men prepared and to start digging protective rings around the city, which he knows he should have done earlier.

    Around 2 and half months after the siege begins, it is decided to assault the walls of Konya, as it is assumed the soldiers and inhabitants of the city are starved sufficiently and the soldier’s morale has plummeted due to lack of food. The siege equipment that is bought with them is to be used to accomplish this task, the siege equipment that is bought with them to succeed in this; they have bought 3 siege towers, 2 battering rams and 250 ladders, along with engineering equipment to tunnel under the walls and 5 trebuchets to pound the walls. They decide to assault the walls by splitting the army into two main to attack the walls a certain points away from each other, the reason is the Rhomaioi hope split the Turks into two and hopefully make it easier to assault the city, while a third small force shall be in the middle to shield any message carriers and to batter the gates with a battering while drawing Turkish troops to the center, while Manuel watches the siege from an observation post atop an hill outside the city so he can give orders and not run the risk of injury during the crucial assault on the city and since the hill is quite high and the area around the hill are plains. He also has a view of the battlefield in front of the city as far as he can see, meaning he has clear view of the potential battlefield and any potential Turkish reinforcements that may come and a fourth force is to guard the rear of the army in case of any attacks that come from there. Diversionary attacks also happen at certain parts of the wall, to test the Turks reactions, most of the time, the Turks react quickly and send men there to fire back with their curved bows and since they react very quickly, Manuel decides against more diversionary attacks (partly because he is too impatient) and he decides to assault the walls.





    So what do you think of it so far? Did i do the siege right? How could i improve it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  8. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Not really. This has about all we have to work on: http://www.roman-emperors.org/alexiicom.htm

    Speaking for myself, "unpromising" is an understatement, but then, if Manuel lives longer than OTL (which is quite possible), he might do something about his son's education. But I doubt he'll be much of an administrator 9which the Empire sorely needs after Manuel).

    Siege seems interesting, though the numbers may be off - I don't have any alternate ones to suggest but I'd definitely have more ladders and the like.

    I think the Byzantine dead would not just be left where they fell though. That's the main thing I'd edit.
     
  9. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the help on Alexius, it looks like i am going to have to improve on his character quite a bit, due to a lack of information.

    I noted your concerns about ladder numbers and changed the numbers to 30. I have plans for the Rhomaios dead bodies later, so they will stay put for now. Anyhow, did you think the Seljuk Sultan would let the Rhomaios to keep Konya, or even leave alive? Also how was the part about the march to Konya? Could i improve on it in anyway?
     
  10. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    If the Byzantines take Iconium (the original name of the city picked intentionally), the Seljuks aren't going to be in much of a position to dispute Roman ownership.

    Also, 30 ladders for an army of 29,000? You'd have hundreds of ladders, methinks, if at all possible.
     
  11. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    When the Byzantines leave Iconium with the bulk of the army, the Seljuks can take back the city with a larger force. Although it will be difficult, especially with the heavy Byzantine infantry fighting in hand to hand. Or they could starve it out.
     
  12. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    The Seljuks don't have a second army just waiting to be used here. And depending on what happens, Kilij Arslan might be killed or captured here - and the succession promises to be something the Byzantines can exploit.

    If they besiege it, the Byzantines will respond.
     
  13. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Sieges are usually over quickly in medieval times. Also by the time the Byzantines hear about it, they have to raise a new army, march back, retake it and then leave a bigger garrison and more supplies. Then it repeats itself until Byzantines destroy the leaders and crush the army somehow.
     
  14. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Sieges are usually over quickly?

    What?

    And the Byzantines don't need to raise a new army - they have a standing army, not a forty-days-of-feudal service army, remember?

    As for destroying the leaders and crushing the army: Which the Byzantines kinda have done already.
     
  15. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    When i said quickly, i meant in around 20-40 days. Fair enough about the Byzantines standing army, i forgot that. But by the time that news reaches Constantinople (about 10-20 days i think, depends on route used), the emperor has to gather the army (from where their stationed/garrisoned/whatever) and then march, which depending on size, route and speed, would probably take longer than usual, by which time the siege may be over, either by assault or starvation.

    I will explain what happens with Kilij and the rest of the army in the next update (you think they are going to give up?), as it should be a lot clearer then.
     
  16. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    1) That would be a very quick siege by medieval standards. Medieval sieges usually lasted months.

    2) Gallipoli (to use the modern/Turkish name) to Iconium took Barbarossa (picked as an example of travel in this period), under assault by Turks and not well supported by the locals, less than six weeks. Properly garrisoned and supplied, Iconium should be able to hold out for more than two months against what the Turks can do to it after these defeats.

    3) Killy doesn't have much choice. His army is badly mauled, his capital is in Byzantine hands, and the likelihood of his vassals (to use the best word I can think of) not seeing which way the wind is blowing is low - further weakening his position.
     
  17. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Tongera,

    You speak about a"forced march" and then carry with them siege towers? and othe siege equipment? you may not feel it but it is a contradiction in terms;with this equipment the speed of the army will be about 3-4 klms a day and if the road is good,a snail's pace that would make the army a sitting duck!Then Ikonion will have all the time in the world to prepare for siege...
    Byzantines should get to the Ikonion first,lay it under siege and then construct the towers on the site.That is usually the procedure when your aim is to arrive at your objective as fast as possible in a forced march.
     
  18. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    1. I must be using different sources then. Maybe i am thinking about less than well supplied settlements.

    2. Fair enough point, i will change it later.

    3. Good point, i would have to rewrite a fair bit of my timeline then.
     
  19. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    The POD was the battle of Myriokephalon. I can't find any sources that say that there wasn't any siege equipment (i mean no siege towers, battering rams etc) and the sources i find don't say anything specific, so i am assuming siege towers was carried with them.
     
  20. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    On the siege thing: Probably. An ill prepared city or castle can fall very quickly - but a well prepared one lasts for a while.

    Out of curiosity, what exactly were you planning? In terms of the results, I mean.