The 1000 Year Dynasty of the Kommenos TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Tongera, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    The Kommenoi Triumphant, A 1000 Year Dynasty Timeline

    This is my timeline on this website and indeed ever, so i hope you enjoy it and if you have any suggestions on how to improve it, just put the suggestions in the thread, also i would like to thank Basileus 444 for helping me with certain aspects of this timeline. The timeline takes place from 1175 onwards and involves a certain Empire in the Balkans and Anatolia...

    Here is the timeline below:

    1175 – In 1175, Manuel I Kommenos, the Basileus (Emperor) of the Rhomaios (Roman) Basileia (Empire) gathers an army to invade the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum (led by the Turkish Sultan Kilij Arslan) when they refuse to hand over territory they captured recently from the Danishmends, which was agreed upon by treaty few years before.

    1176 – An army is gathered at Lopadion by Manuel, an army of 40,000 men and siege equipment for the siege of the cities, the army is then split up into two armies; one led by Andronikos Vatatzes by consists of 5,000 men and is ordered to march to Amassia (Amasya in Turkish) to distract the Seljuk’s, while the main army under Manuel Kommenos, which contains 35,000 men, is to march to Ikonion (Konya in Turkish) to take the Seljuk capital.

    Before Manuel’s army is about to go through a mountain pass near the fortress of Myriokephalon (forced to go through that route because of Seljuk forces scorching the earth, destroying crops and poisoning water) Manuel hears of the destruction of the army of Adronikos Vatatzes because of an ambush by the Seljuk army when he lead his army through a forested area on his way to Amassia. Manuel is unsure of whether to go straight through the mountain pass: on the one hand, his troops has dysentery, he desperately needs the forage and water for his troops and horses, on the other hand, the loss of Adronikos’s army (which spooks Manuel badly) and the real danger of an ambush through the confines of the pass. His generals convinces him (and from Manuels shock at the ambush of the other Rhomaion army) to send scouts through the pass, as an ambush which destroys the siege equipment could derail the Rhomaion’s plans and end the campaign.

    When the scouts (light cavalry) are sent through the mountain pass, Manuel sets up his army on the plain of Philomelion in front of the mountain pass, in case the scouts come back and the Turks follow them or if Manuel decides to send a detachment of troops near the pass to lure the Turks onto the plain, where they can’t ambush the Rhomaion’s army. About 30 minutes later the scouts come running out of the mountain pass and the scouts approaches Manuel and tells him about the Turkish army following them out of the pass, which the scouts say is around 10,000 men and only a minority of the army (which it seems like Kilij is unable to control), Manuel orders his army to move forward to meet the army that will be coming out of the pass anytime soon.

    The Turks that rush out of the mountain pass run right into the Rhomaios army, or more specifically the heavy infantry of the army which crushes the Turkish foot soldiers that run straight into them out of the pass. The Turks that stop in time to realise that they can’t win the battle and have ran into a trap start to try to run back through the mountain pass, but the Turks that are trying to get to the battlefield through the mountain pass are preventing the frontline Turks from retreating back through the pass. As the Turks are frantically trying to run back through the blocked pass, the Rhomaios heavy infantry are rushing straight into the rear and flank of the army and slashing at the Turkish infantry, while the Turkish Sultan Kilij Arslan watches from atop the pass in horror as his infantry are slaughtered, while the Turkish archers are having success on the Rhomaios troops as they are firing from the two sides of the top of the mountain pass and are inflicting casualties against the Rhomaios, but the Turkish archers are also having trouble trying to avoid to hit their own troops, but the Rhomaios are inflicting heavier casualties on the Turks.

    By the time the Turks are able to retreat through the mountain pass and get out of the Rhomaios armies reach (after the Rhomaios troops rush through after them and rush up hills where the Turkish archers are, causing the Turkish archers and Kilij Arslan and his bodyguards to retreat), around 7,000 Turks are killed and 4,000 are wounded out of an estimated 20,000 men that took part in the battle, with Kilij Arslan escaping with his troops in the direction of the Seljuk capital, Konya.

    Rhomaios total casualties are around 1,000 killed, but 3,000 wounded (the reason for the difference in casualties is because the Turks were mostly fighting heavily armoured Rhomaios troops and the fact that the Turks tried to retreat back into the pass, the Rhomaioi were actively attacking them in the rear). Once the battle was over, a Greek regiment took the prisoners, wounded and the soldiers suffering from dysentery back to Constantinople while the main Rhomaios army began to get through the pass quickly, just in case another ambush can be set up and to eventually march on Konya and the fact that the army needs supplies and water on the other side of the pass. When the entirety of the Rhomaios army gets through the pass along with the siege equipment, they find some Turkish troops attempting to poison the water and destroying anything that may be off use, they are quickly chased off and once the army stocks up on supplies from the area, gets some water from nearby wells and rests for the night, then they begin there march on Konya.



    If there is any way i can improve it just say. I think i may finish the next update by tomorrow, hopefully.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  2. Fredrick II Barbarossa Holy Roman Emperor

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    lol you must have copied that title....... I know thier was a similiar timeline...:D:D:D Different POD I believe.
     
  3. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Shit did i!? What timeline was it? I am going to have to change it, how would i do that?

    Also, what did you think of the timeline so far? You didn't comment on the actual timeline, which has kind of annoyed me (you commented on the title though).
     
  4. Fredrick II Barbarossa Holy Roman Emperor

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    Sorry I will comment on the timeline althought itle caught my eye. See it was done by I believe the user ALexius komnenos called the rise and fall of the thousand year Komnenos dynasty or something similiar. Look up his page and it should come up. However it was based later on and became fantasy and was dropped. So i doubt unless he creates a v 3.0 your title would be in trouble....
    Also the timeline itself is good. With a victory at Myrikeplon the Byzantines are in a good position. Will you have the turks vassalized or coonquered. As of now too early to question the plausbility for it is the start but so far it looks good and you explained the battle pretty well.

    Also to change it just go to the post, go to edit then advanced settings and change the title.
     
  5. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Two questions FB,if I may:
    1) where is the change of title posted for our perusal?
    2) when are we going to have your update about the timeline below?
     
  6. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Oh, so nothing about my timeline?

    Edit: Anyone think of a decent, but different title?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  7. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    The way the Turks come charging out of the mountain pass seems very implausible. This isn't a Hollywood set or something, they're not going to be literally running like this.

    Its a detail, but a rather important one.


    As for a title, how about this?

    An Immortal Dynasty: The Komnenoi Triumphant
     
  8. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I agree the Turks charging out of the pass is unrealistic, but it was the only way i think of to lure them out at the time (although some sources for the battle say that the Turks were somewhat undisciplined, ignoring Kilij's orders at some point in the battle). Also i like the title, thanks.

    Oh yeah, what do you think of the rest of the timeline, besides that little flaw?
     
  9. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    I like the idea. I think the tactical description needs work - even if they are uncontrolled by Kilij, they're not going to behaving quite like this. More a problem in regards to those behind them being unable to do anything but plow into the rear of those in front, which seems unlikely - a tight mass of men would do that, but the Turks aren't likely to be acting like one.

    And the causality estimates may be generous.
     
  10. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    How is the casaulty estimate generous? I figured that a large part of them would have escaped and ran back to Konya.
     
  11. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Generous as in, favoring the Romans and being hard on the Turks.
     
  12. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I figured that heavily armoured Greeks would tear apart Turkish infantry in hand to hand combat, epscially ones that are trying to retreat and is being crushed by their comrades.
     
  13. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    But most of the Turkish forces here - OTL, at least, I'm not sure why that would be different TTL - aren't infantry intent on getting killed by Roman swords and spears.

    So even if they slip the leash of the sultan, why are they fighting (and charging) so dumbly?
     
  14. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I am going to put it down to eagerness and inexperience (particularly stupidity on the ones that charged first).
     
  15. Herzen's love-child rootless cosmopolitan

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    The premise of a 1000 year dynasty stretches credulity--perhaps you mean to use a millennium figuratively? The longest-lived Byzantine dynasty was the last-- the nearly 200 year-old Palaiologos. Byzantine dynamics don't seem well suited for longer-lived family control. A few interregnums might be in order. Or perhaps the position of Basileus becomes ceremonial like the Japanese Imperial house--- which has lasted (not including mythical emperors) approx. 1500 years. There are a number of royal houses that have been very long-lived in human history but perhaps because they were not the repository of political power.
    The longest lived dynasty in planetary history was the Zhao of China--800--but it held centralized control for less than 300.

    I will interested in how you make a 1000 years work! :)
     
  16. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    I meant that the dynasty will stay as the royal family in Byzantium for the next 1000 years (or millenium), whether will any political power or not, well that is to be decided, although they may become ceremonial, without any political power at all. It will be decided as the timeline is moving along, i am quite open to the ideal.
     
  17. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    The Palaiologos (who were cut short by the empire being conquered before the dynasty was replaced from within) might actually be a good example of how it works, though.

    It could stay the same family, but competition within the family between different branches.

    Otherwise, even if the Byzantine system supports a long lived dynasty (and I don't see why not - medieval England compared to post-Alexius I Byzantium is not looking terribly stable), it'll probably go extinct in the male line (see the Hapsburgs) sooner or latter.
     
  18. Tongera Well-Known Member

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    Good point. Also, is there any detailed sources about Manuel's son, Alexius? As i can't seem to find anything about him.
     
  19. cimon Well-Known Member

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    Well,you have the Hapsburgs since 1229(the name originates from the Swiss fort Hapsburg) until today,the last one,Otto von Hapsburg was an editor of the Economist magazine until recently, and you complain about Comnenoi?
     
  20. Herzen's love-child rootless cosmopolitan

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    Being alive doesn't mean being in power. There are survivors from many a defunct dynasty walking the earth today.