That Wacky Redhead

[unclepatrick]

If you can get past the main characters being too stupid to realize they're chasing giant ants in Act 1.

Right because if I find a little girl in the Desert and a wreck Trailer on the side of the road, the first thing I think of is Giant Ants.

No it not perfect, But It would put Them in a top ten 1950's Sci fi list any day.

 

[unclepatrick]

If you can get past the main characters being too stupid to realize they're chasing giant ants in Act 1.

Right because if I find a little girl in the Desert and a wreck Trailer on the side of the road, the first thing I think of is Giant Ants.

No it not perfect, But It would put Them in a top ten 1950's Sci fi list any day.

Ok I might think giant ants. I see "Them" too many times.

 

[phx1138]

Right because if I find a little girl in the Desert and a wreck Trailer on the side of the road, the first thing I think of is Giant Ants.

Not the first thing, no. But there are enough clues, by the end of Act 1 (which is about 15min in), they should have already figured it out. (I'll grant, I frequently think film & TV characters are stupid...especially when they go out of their way not to see something that's obvious, because it would hurt the progress of the story if they found out too soon.)

It's worse still when they don't see something they should, because seeing it would obviate the story entirely. To wit: at least one episode of "STNG" OTL. A planet is about to be hit by an asteroid. Suggestions include phasering it into fragments or tractoring it away. Two obvious (to me) ideas aren't even offered: phaser it so it creates a "jet", which will alter the orbit; or lay photon torpedoes on the surface (slightly embedded), then trigger them like shaped charges, producing a thruster effect, with the same end. (And these are supposed to be humanity's best & brightest. Or not.)

James Blish once asked for possible ways to divert an asteroid. He got suggestion like this, with the question, "Would it work?" Blish replied, "I hope not".

No it not perfect, But It would put Them in a top ten 1950's Sci fi list any day.

As monster movies go, it's one of the 2 or 3 best, up there with "The Thing".

Ok I might think giant ants. I see "Them" too many times.

I'll grant, I may be biased, too. As an SF buff, I don't rule out the fantastic. Most people probably aren't as open-minded. (Nor have I ever encountered something that could only be explained by there actually being giant ants.)

Since it's a film, tho...you really do have to accept they're supposed to represent the open-minded, rather than the "blind public", or they wouldn't be stars in it. As Holmes used to say, "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains must be the truth."

When you demand characters be stupid just to keep the story from being too short, it's bad writing. (Which is one reason I hate so many sitcoms so much.)

 

[NCW8]

Wish that the Draconians would return. My favorite of the Pertwee years aliens.
(Wish I could Forget Alpha Centauri)

What ! Are you showing disrespect to a Federation Ambassador ?

Remember, he's got his eye on you

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Brainbin]

Another piece of sad news, I've just heard that Neil Armstong has passed away. The moon landing is one of my earliest tv memories and is certainly the earliest historical event that I can remember witnessing.

Requiem aeternam ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei.

Sad indeed about Neil Armstrong.

I was living in Japan in 1969. I had just turn 4. My parents let me and my Two year old sister stay up. Dad had a bunch of Friends over. My sister wonder around and kept sipping from everyone glasses. She got sick and My Mother missed the Landing because she was in the Bathroom dealing with my sick sister.
I sat in my normal spot which was off to the left of the TV, up close and I kept being told to move because I was block the guest view of the TV. Some time between the Landing and Neil stepping on the Moon, I fell asleep and Dad put me to bed.

God Speed Neil

Indeed, may he rest in peace. He'll always be the first man to set foot on another world, and all of the great explorers forever after will be continuing his legacy.

Now, re the Olympic update (the Olympics were on this year, you know )

Oh, is that what that was?

A lot of interesting stuff there, I like the use of butterflies.

Thank you

Your coverage of the Canadian team reminds me of when I was watching the 2008 Olympics on telly in Canada and how the CBC commentators obsessed over the Canadian competitors (who weren't doing very well for the most part) at the expense of everyone else. Of course you expect some of this from any nation, but it was very tunnel-visiony, I didn't even find out how well the UK had done until months later because the commentators never mentioned the existence of any other country other than Canada

It's rather unfortunate, yes, especially since they always hype up the athletes who subsequently always choke when the big event comes (my favourite example: Perdita Felicien, at the time the reigning world champion in the 100-metre hurdles event, who tripped over the first hurdle in Athens, and even knocked another competitor out).

I can see the decision to use Montreal without an accent being A Big Thing to our friends in the poutine-scoffing community and possibly having Levesque-esque repercussions down the line...

Quebec is going to be a lot of fun in this timeline, yes

It just occurred to me that I doubt Muskie will win in 1976 as the Democrats have now won four presidential elections in a row. Presumably from the POV of American political historians in TTL, they are still in the period of Democratic dominance that started in 1936 and Eisenhower's two terms are considered an aberration. Amateur historians who don't think through the details will probably think Adlai Stevenson was some kind of terrible or disastrous candidate because he's the only guy (twice!) to lose to a Republican in the entire period, and in a landslide at that.

I obviously won't confirm whether or not you're right, but I also want to note that the Republicans hold both houses of Congress after the 1974 election, which further cements the notion of an "era" of Democratic dominance coming to an end (the Democrats controlled Congress for all but four years from 1933 to 1975).

I'd also say the more interesting, if only because it's less usual. TTL, RFK might have been killed in another place or at another time, but still killed, since the influence of butterflies after POD wasn't yet enough to save him. (Unless that was intended, for other reasons.)

The "RFK Lives" (and/or "President RFK") story has been told many times before on this forum, so I did "intend" to kill him in that sense. I probably could have butterflied his assassination away, even as early as mid-1968, but there wasn't really a solid foundation to do so, and it didn't fit the story that I wanted to tell.

She was really good, but, as I said, there was pressure on the judges (or a deal cut, I don't recall which) to score her higher than she actually deserved. (Could be there was pressure to score the whole Sov team higher, I don't recall.) This came out following the "French judge scandal" (so-called).

I'm not a fan of gymnastics, and I've never seen her performance, so I couldn't tell you either way. That said, she was a member of the Romanian team, not the Soviet team (yes, I know, still Warsaw Pact). And those French judges! It always seems to be the French judges, doesn't it?

Which seems to suggest both that TTL's GTA isn't a monster. It also suggests Toronto's cultural influence may be reduced (tho with the HQs of so many English-language networks, maybe not...).

We'll get more into Canadian (and American!) demography in the 1980-81 cycle (naturally).

It wasn't an unbelievable outcome. I suppose I just expected the usual choking.

ITTL, Stanfield himself never choked, and therefore, neither will Team Canada

Your subtlety eluded me.

Good! Because I've been subtle about a lot of things

Y'know, it seems to me there's a TL worth of stuff in why that happened... You'd have to really be interested in the Olympics to write it, tho.

Which I'm not. I would love to see someone write an Olympics-oriented timeline, though (or even a sport-oriented timeline in general).

I keep forgetting how slow the adoption of color TVs was.

And, of course, most people held onto their old black-and-white sets (allowing most households to have two sets from the 1970s onward, with the older one located in the den, the kitchen/dining area, or the master bedroom... or taken up to the cottage or trailer). And adoption rates varied depending on region, of course.

Some of you will probably be surprised to hear this, but I remember watching the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Nth Degree" on a black and white TV.

A great example of how black-and-white sets had surprising longevity - even I remember an old B&W kicking around when I was a kid in the early 1990s, probably from the aforementioned cottage or trailer. I have a related question, though - are they also called "sets" in the UK or is a different term used?

My parents bought their first colour tv in about 1975. I "inherited" the old black and white one, which I continued to use until I finally bought my own colour tv in 1984. So there were some series that I was still watching regularly in black and white in the early eighties. MASH was one as it was on at the same time as the news.

There's a perfect example of those dynamics I was talking about, so thank you for proving me right on that score. I know you were in the UK, which was slower to adopt Colour TV than the US was, but I can't help but wonder if, in Back to the Future (released in 1985), one of the two televisions owned by the McFly family is black-and-white. (The one program they watch on one of the two sets is The Honeymooners, which doesn't prove anything either way).

The makeup effects for Planet of the Apes were devised by John Chambers, who also designed much of the makeup effects for Star Trek. The person you want to learn more about, though, was Wah Chang, who created the costumes for pretty much all of the "man-in-a-rubber-suit" monsters in the series. You have to remember that the show was working on a budget, and the makeup effects for Planet of the Apes were revolutionary for the time. The technology to make a Gorn with a fully-articulated, life-like animatronic suit simply wasn't there, at least not with the kind of budget Star Trek had for it's first couple seasons. For the time, it was pretty good.

Chang did design many costumes, but he was better known for props and smaller creatures. Janos Prohaska was also involved with the design and implementation of the "monster" costumes, up to and including performing in them.

As for the Gorn, they don't show up later in the original series ITTL, according to Brainbin, I'd imagine it's possible that in the fourth or fifth season the *Saurians (who don't look like the Motion Picture version except for being reptilian) show up as a one-off villain with realistic animatronic masks developed by Jim Henson, making them look like brutal, scaly, life-like warriors- essentially, what the Gorn would have looked like if with better special effects. Overall, the creature effects would improve over the course of the series ITTL, instead of IOTL where they just gave up after a while.

Agreed that people give the Gorn costume way too much flack; the first time I watched "Arena", I was able to suspend my disbelief, even though their notorious fight scene has famously been described as the Worst Fight Scene Ever. Obviously you were as well, since you describe it as your favourite episode. The most important thing about it, behind-the-scenes, is that it was the first-ever contribution to Star Trek by Gene L. Coon. He wrote it himself in one weekend, only for Desilu's legal team to secure the rights to the Fredric Brown short story when they noticed the plot similarities.

And yes, the creature effects do improve with time, especially once Henson and his team get involved. It's considered one of the saving graces of the fifth season ITTL (which is considered something of an "empty shell"; pretty but insubstantial). The one problem with the Saurians being made villains is that their brandy is widely and openly consumed by the crew of the Enterprise, indicating good trade relations (and possibly membership within the Federation). This is contrast to Romulan Ale (never actually mentioned in the series proper) which was always described as illegal (except when the embargo was lifted). They could always be made friendly aliens, like the Tellarites or the Andorians.

Very true, and you see that logic today a lot with special effects in general (for instance, the Michael Bay Transformers movies), but my contention is that Star Trek didn't ever stoop to that.

Indeed not, which is one of the many reasons why we love it so much

An interesting comparison to the Gorn are the Draconians, who appeared in Dr Who in 1973: Given the budget that they had to work with, the make-up is pretty effective. It's no wonder that Jon Pertwee said that they were his favourite aliens.

I'll agree, that's very good makeup for the early 1970s (especially on the shoestring budgets of OTL Doctor Who).

Sometimes the most effective monster special effect is to not show it at all.

Because Nothing Is Scarier!

Mind you, Star Trek has also had some rather elaborate alien makeups that only seemed to appear once

There are solid reasons for that. Lots of one-shot aliens really help to make it seem like a massive, diverse galaxy (which Star Trek has always excelled at conveying, from the very beginning). At the same time, it's a good place to put the effects money saved up from the many bottle shows.

...and with the increased budget Doctor Who has here, it's likely that by the time they show up ITTL, they'll look even better.

Very true. In fact, you can consider that canon.

On Armstrong: even the highest fliers with the Right Stuff run out of time. This day deserves a holiday. Or his birthday. 20 July '69, there was one world, for the first time ever, & his skill helped make it possible.

I personally think that a state funeral is certainly in order.

I was wondering if in the near future, a Max-Headroom Esque figure can be sucessful ITTL?

Glad you're still reading, Nivek! That's an intriguing possibility! We shall have to see

 

[Thande]

And, of course, most people held onto their old black-and-white sets (allowing most households to have two sets from the 1970s onward, with the older one located in the den, the kitchen/dining area, or the master bedroom... or taken up to the cottage or trailer). And adoption rates varied depending on region, of course.

That's how I ended up watching the aforementioned TNG episode in black and white--it was my grandparents' old TV that they had in their kitchen.

A great example of how black-and-white sets had surprising longevity - even I remember an old B&W kicking around when I was a kid in the early 1990s, probably from the aforementioned cottage or trailer. I have a related question, though - are they also called "sets" in the UK or is a different term used?

We would certainly recognise the term "TV set" (not usually "set" on its own) but these days I think it's considered an archaicism. People just say TV on its own, or Telly etc. (but that's now being though of as an older person's phrase too...) "TV set" was still in common usage when I was growing up in the eighties and early nineties though.

I personally think that a state funeral is certainly in order.

Wait, does the USA have state funerals?

 

[e of pi]

Wait, does the USA have state funerals?

Yes, we do, we just don't do them often. Most recent non-presidential one was MacArthur.

 

[Thande]

Yes, we do, we just don't do them often. Most recent non-presidential one was MacArthur.

Ah, well, that'll be why I've never heard of it then. Armstrong certainly deserves one.

 

[phx1138]

Indeed, may he rest in peace. He'll always be the first man to set foot on another world, and all of the great explorers forever after will be continuing his legacy.

Up there with Columbus IMO, when we get far enough from the event.

I personally think that a state funeral is certainly in order.

Absolutely. (And I am ashamed I didn't think of that...)

very tunnel-visiony

Was this the same Olympiad where they stopped doing live interviews after somebody said, "As I just told CBS..."?

athletes who subsequently always choke when the big event comes

Which suggests Canadian Olympic team training is deficient in teaching them how to deal with pressure...

The "RFK Lives" (and/or "President RFK") story has been told many times before on this forum, so I did "intend" to kill him in that sense. I probably could have butterflied his assassination away, even as early as mid-1968, but there wasn't really a solid foundation to do so, and it didn't fit the story that I wanted to tell.

No complaint here. I also think there's a certain amount of "inertia" in events that has to be overcome, which could explain his assassination still happening (along with lots of other things not changing).

I'm not a fan of gymnastics, and I've never seen her performance, so I couldn't tell you either way.

Around that time, I really was. I recall being stunned at the perfect score.

she was a member of the Romanian team

It's been too long.

And those French judges! It always seems to be the French judges, doesn't it?

ITTL, Stanfield himself never choked, and therefore, neither will Team Canada

A touch of handwavium...?

Which I'm not. I would love to see someone write an Olympics-oriented timeline, though (or even a sport-oriented timeline in general).

Nor I. Neither was I suggesting you take it on, just musing it'd be interesting reading.

And, of course, most people held onto their old black-and-white sets (allowing most households to have two sets from the 1970s onward, with the older one located in the den, the kitchen/dining area, or the master bedroom... or taken up to the cottage or trailer). And adoption rates varied depending on region, of course.

I know we did. It allowed us to avoid scheduling conflicts, for one thing. I think SK was very slow in adoption, based on how slow we electrified. I imagine how rural it was (is) had a strong influence.

A great example of how black-and-white sets had surprising longevity - even I remember an old B&W kicking around when I was a kid in the early 1990s

We still used a little 12-14" as late as 1981-2 as a 2d set at home.

I can't help but wonder if, in Back to the Future (released in 1985), one of the two televisions owned by the McFly family is black-and-white.

Where was the big one? I'd bet it would've been color, & gotten pride of place. The smaller would have been relegated to a secondary space (kid's room?), & reserved, probably, for "non-family" viewing, where the big screen was for "everybody" shows.

Most recent non-presidential one was MacArthur.

Am I right thinking Coretta Scott King only got a lying in state?

And let me add a vote for the success of "Max Headroom" (if not for the character himself...)

 

[NCW8]

We would certainly recognise the term "TV set" (not usually "set" on its own) but these days I think it's considered an archaicism. People just say TV on its own, or Telly etc. (but that's now being though of as an older person's phrase too...)

That'll be me then

"Telly" was in common use in the seventies. TV was also referred to as the "Box" (short for "Goggle-box").

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[phx1138]

Butterfly effects FYI, if anybody cares....

"ST" running longer might (slightly...) impact "Five-O", for which John D.F. wrote 5 teleplays in season 1.

 

[vultan]

Chang did design many costumes, but he was better known for props and smaller creatures. Janos Prohaska was also involved with the design and implementation of the "monster" costumes, up to and including performing in them.

Dang it, how did I forget Prohaska? The man was a boss!

Agreed that people give the Gorn costume way too much flack; the first time I watched "Arena", I was able to suspend my disbelief, even though their notorious fight scene has famously been described as the Worst Fight Scene Ever. Obviously you were as well, since you describe it as your favourite episode. The most important thing about it, behind-the-scenes, is that it was the first-ever contribution to Star Trek by Gene L. Coon. He wrote it himself in one weekend, only for Desilu's legal team to secure the rights to the Fredric Brown short story when they noticed the plot similarities.

I have a soft spot for it because it's the first episode of Star Trek (the Original Series, that is) I ever saw. I was young enough to not really care about the cheesy effects, so yeah.

And yes, the creature effects do improve with time, especially once Henson and his team get involved. It's considered one of the saving graces of the fifth season ITTL (which is considered something of an "empty shell"; pretty but insubstantial). The one problem with the Saurians being made villains is that their brandy is widely and openly consumed by the crew of the Enterprise, indicating good trade relations (and possibly membership within the Federation). This is contrast to Romulan Ale (never actually mentioned in the series proper) which was always described as illegal (except when the embargo was lifted). They could always be made friendly aliens, like the Tellarites or the Andorians.

Ah, background aliens! Now, I was just using the Saurians as a hypothetical illustrative example to talk about effects for reptilian humanoids in later seasons of Star Trek ITTL, but that works too.

Indeed not, which is one of the many reasons why we love it so much

It really set it apart from previous live-action science fiction.

Very true. In fact, you can consider that canon.

Yay!

I personally think that a state funeral is certainly in order.

For Armstrong, definitely.

 

[Brainbin]

We would certainly recognise the term "TV set" (not usually "set" on its own) but these days I think it's considered an archaicism. People just say TV on its own, or Telly etc. (but that's now being though of as an older person's phrase too...) "TV set" was still in common usage when I was growing up in the eighties and early nineties though.

All right, then - that's about the same as how it is over here, believe it or not - I was deliberately using the term "set" because of the context of switching from black-and-white to colour, which was (mostly) done in the 1970s, when that usage was still current. I am surprised to learn that "telly" is also in decline, though - I always thought that was the word for it over there, up there with "pram" and "boot" and "flat". (Then again, I do mostly watch the older British shows - not a Corrie fan, though much of my family is.)

Which suggests Canadian Olympic team training is deficient in teaching them how to deal with pressure...

No freaking kidding.

A touch of handwavium...?

I like to think of it as a shot of self-confidence

"Telly" was in common use in the seventies. TV was also referred to as the "Box" (short for "Goggle-box").

Interesting name. The only use of "box" to refer to television in North America that I know of is "idiot box".

"ST" running longer might (slightly...) impact "Five-O", for which John D.F. wrote 5 teleplays in season 1.

No, Black's involvement in Star Trek appears to have been virtually nil after early season 1. Therefore, he is free and clear to write teleplays for Hawaii Five-O on schedule.

Dang it, how did I forget Prohaska? The man was a boss!

He sure was. (I note his OTL accidental death by plane crash; you can consider that butterflied away.) In a way it's unfortunate that I'm having Henson and co. steal his thunder ITTL, but there will certainly still be room for him (as in "Yesteryear", when he plays the le-matya opposite I-Chaya, performed by Henson).

I have a soft spot for it because it's the first episode of Star Trek (the Original Series, that is) I ever saw. I was young enough to not really care about the cheesy effects, so yeah.

The first episode I remember seeing was "The Devil in the Dark", which also had a cheesy "monster", but I loved it - and it's still in my Top 10.

Definitely one of the "Star Trek in a nutshell" episodes.

Ah, background aliens! Now, I was just using the Saurians as a hypothetical illustrative example to talk about effects for reptilian humanoids in later seasons of Star Trek ITTL, but that works too.

Well, there have to be some friendly aliens, right? This is a Federation we're talking about. And like I said, it enhances the perception of a "great big galaxy".

It really set it apart from previous live-action science fiction.

And contemporary science-fiction - remember, the main competition at the time was Lost in Space!

And speaking of competition - yes, a certain other epic science-fiction series will be the topic of my next update, which I hope to have ready in a few days.

 

[phx1138]

No, Black's involvement in Star Trek appears to have been virtually nil after early season 1. Therefore, he is free and clear to write teleplays for Hawaii Five-O on schedule.

Huh. Seems his name stuck with me more than it should've.

 

[unclepatrick]

What ! Are you showing disrespect to a Federation Ambassador ?

Remember, he's got his eye on you

Cheers,
Nigel.

Even you Nigel have to admit he a Silly looking Alien.

 

[vultan]

Even you Nigel have to admit he a Silly looking Alien.

I kinda like it (and again, consider how much better it'll look ITTL)...

 

[NCW8]

Even you Nigel have to admit he a Silly looking Alien.

Oh, I do. Perhaps not quite as bad as Arcturus, who also appeared in The Curse of Peladon. The best that can be said of them is that they tried to portray non-humanoid aliens.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[unclepatrick]

Star trek Movies?

By 1975, In OTL, there is interest in a Star Trek movie. Since that Wacky Redhead has Star Trek as More of a success, if anything there should be more interest in a star Trek movie.

The one that came closes to being made was Star Trek: Planet of the Titans
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Planet_of_the_Titans
http://io9.com/5721854/ralph-mcquar...-for-a-star-trek-movie-in-1976+1977/gallery/1

I would have loved to see Toshiro Mifune as a Klingon.

When I get up to the 1970 in my Step by Step Universe I going to have Planet of the Titan Made and then because the set are built, Paramount will do Phase Two. (In step by step Star Trek is just a Three year series)
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=252274&page=2
Out line of the first part of Step by Step.

There were other ideas that were suggested as a Movie, including one were the Vulcans go mad and start attacking other planets, and one with a Black Hole threatening the Earth.

The idea that would fit your Time line the best is IMHO, Harlin Ellison idea of reptile race changing earth history so Humans never evolved. The story goes that Ellison suggested the idea and the Producer at Paramount ask him to add Mayans. Ellison said that that was dumb and storm out.
Since Star Trek has cross over with Doctor Who, what if instead of suggesting Mayans, The Producer suggested that they get the Sulurians from Doctor Who. Ellison Like Doctor Who. He wrote a essay about the Show for the American of the Doctor Who novels. So he might not have storm out.

So will there be Star Trek Movie in your Time Line?

 

[vultan]

Oh, I do. Perhaps not quite as bad as Arcturus, who also appeared in The Curse of Peladon. The best that can be said of them is that they tried to portray non-humanoid aliens.

Cheers,
Nigel.

^^^^^^^^^^^This. Which is what Star Trek needed more of, in all of it's incarnations.

 

[unclepatrick]

And could you do a Update on Roddenberry and the Star Trek Cast and how their post Star Trek careers are going.

You Mention that Genesis two was made. How many season did it run.
Quester Tape How many Season?
Will Roddenberry make Specture ?
other possibility for Roddenberry include Tarzan. He wrote a script after Star Trek that was closer to the Novels than anyone one had done. How about Gene getting that off the ground in the 1970's?

Another possiblilty for Tarzan is the fact that Ray Harryhausen had wanted to do a Tarzan and the Ant men movie in the early 1960's. He could not get the rights. A Roddenberry/ Harryhausen Movie might be possible.