I hope no one takes offense at the above, I promised Brainbin I'd do my best not to kick off more Pony Wars in his thread when I observed this over IM--if it is offensive in any way please understand it wasn't intentional and I'd be interested in understanding more.
And I should make it known that I
did agree with his conclusions when he made them, despite being personally unfamiliar with the program in question (I know it
only by reputation). Though with regards to shows that are ironic but not grimdark: there aren't that many
today, because of the popularity of gothic and vampires and zombies and what have you, but there
were in the 1990s, including
Seinfeld (which defined the decade, much as
The Cosby Show did the 1980s, and
All in the Family the 1970s).
Ironic non-grimdark ? How about
Lazy Town ? The "better-than-average" hero, Sportacus, encourages the children of the town to be more active. This upsets the villain of the piece, Robbie Rotten, the laziest man in town. Robbies's plans to get rid of Sporticus make him the most active person in town.
Having seen
LazyTown (unfortunately - those puppets are nightmare fuel), I can testify that it is largely sincere. It's just kooky in that Nordic/Scandinavian fashion (the show is/was produced in Iceland). Think
Sesame Street with a Europop soundtrack.
Sorry for lecturing about something that you already know.
Don't be. You see, the corrosive effect of irony? I was being entirely complimentary. There are plenty of people reading who
didn't know that and are glad that you reported it.
I only know it because I make it my business to know these things
NCW8 said:
The show really wasn't very good and in OTL didn't deserve a second season (unlike
Star Cops which I think is going to be outside the range of your TL). The quality of script writing needed to be better - it recycled too much from
Are You Being Served and
It Ain't Half Hot Mom. Maybe it would have got over that in a second season. It probably also needs a different lead. Mollie Sugden was a good supporting actress, but she didn't really have what it takes to be the star. Maybe Patricia Routledge would have been a better choice.
Hey! Not a bad idea. A fun way to get one of my favourite British actresses into my timeline. (
She should have been Dolores Umbridge, thank-you-very-much.)
I did get that, & I find it interesting. I only meant, as a show dealing with social issues. "Maude" was probably even more "socially conscious" in the period at issue, & if anything, "Soap" even more so (on the one "biggie", anyhow).
And it's interesting that, in the annals of popular culture, both
Maude and
Soap are today remembered primarily for a singular event or character, respectively, and little else. (Okay, I guess if you count Benson, then
Soap is remembered for two things. Meanwhile, I look at cast pictures and see Mona, Dr. Harry Weston, Benson, and Billy Crystal.)
I'm not making a judgement call either way on that, it's just interesting to think about. Funny how we remember a whole
host of events from
I Love Lucy and
The Honeymooners; how
they aren't pinned down to a singular event or character in the popular imagination. And look at their profound influence on the genre.
As you imply, things like the Goons come from an era in which things typically went out either live and unrecorded, or were recorded, sent out once and then the tapes were wiped due to Equity laws (see our Doctor Who discussion a few pages back). So it made sense to do topical jokes in those. Whereas by the time sitcoms in the 70s were going out in the UK (probably true earlier on in the US) executives knew that they would be repeating them in the future, so they avoided so many topical references.
This is arguably still true today, in that executives assume that explicitly topical shows like "Have I Got News For You" won't have replay value (at least more than a year or so after they first went out) and thus don't release them on DVD, whereas a quick glance at Youtube or some of the satellite channels will show that this is bollocks and plenty of people still laugh at twenty-year-old topical jokes.
Well, once again, to play the devil's advocate to my own arguments, something that remains tremendously popular on
both sides of the Atlantic is the Looney Tunes. Even the newest of the classic cartoons are over a half-century old now. But people still watch them, and they still laugh, even though they are positively
replete with topical humour. Is it because those geniuses at Termite Terrace were also good enough to balance it out with slapstick and visual gags? Well, it can't have
hurt.
I'm not sure whether similar conditions would apply to the old British comedies on television, not having seen any of them.
The one place that came to my mind was Carson's monolog. And Johnny had a real talent for sensing when it was OK to mention sensitive subjects, so even then, the war might not have turned up. (He waited a fair while to mention Nixon, & when he did, Nixon was done.
I've seen a doc on Carson, & people were saying, "Now that Johnny's doing it, Nixon is finished."
I believe it.)
If we're going to talk about
The Tonight Show with Johnny, I'll share one of my observations: many people remember his last proper show with guests, on May 21, 1992. There were two of them, actually: Robin Williams, and Bette Midler. Williams, of course, came on and did his schtick and made everybody laugh with his
extremely topical jokes (it was an election year, so of course you could probably date his routine down to the very day
anyway). It probably wasn't even
half as funny by Election Day. (It was Arsenio Hall who scored the big coup for
that election, if you'll recall). And
then Bette Midler came on. And it really is such an astounding contrast: he was so rigidly dated, whereas she was allowed to be utterly timeless. And to the credit of those watching at the time, they realized right away that they were bearing witness to something truly special.
And of course, 20 years on, people still remember her singing to Johnny. They don't really talk about Robin Williams and his jokes that night.
phx1138 said:
Yeh. It's not like nobody understands...
Even if you weren't alive then, necessarily. After all, how many people
don't get the "I...am not a crook" gag (complete with "V" signs--or without)? Hell, I've heard stories of whole audiences watching Trek 3 & getting McCoy's failed neck pinch--& the only person who
didn't was from China.
You discuss the phenomenon known as
Pop Cultural Osmosis, which really helps to demonstrate how popular culture brings people together.