Brainbin said:
I like this idea a lot. It means that Lew Grade and Jim Henson would likely meet ITTL (in order to develop British-exclusive Muppets, though obviously Henson's core team would be far too busy working on The Muppet Show to perform them).
I really like this idea. I'd love to see how a Brit team does it differently.:cool:
Brainbin said:
Very likely. And again, why the Detroit affiliate? Shouldn't the "default" affiliate available to Canadian service providers be the flagship WNET in New York? But then again, the CRTC has often baffled me. Because, of course, having a station that serves Atlanta as part of our basic cable package makes so much sense :rolleyes:
I'm of the opinion I'm going to understand the CRTC's thinking one day. Then I'm going to die.:p But I'll die happy.;):p (I have a suspicion a New York affiliate would show up what genuine culture looked like & make the Torontonians look like rubes.:p Given the peculiar programming choices on CBC since 1985...:rolleyes:)
Brainbin said:
You should put that in your user description :p
Like now?;)
Brainbin said:
A classic case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.
More like a classic case of Canadians being too stupid for words...:mad: Or, at least, outsmarting themselves.:rolleyes:
Brainbin said:
I'm sure TIIC don't regret their boneheaded decision in the slightest.
I'd be very surprised if they did.;)
Brainbin said:
Speaking from experience, titles can be a very tricky business :)
Yeah, picking one can be difficult.;)
Brainbin said:
Norman Spinrad really does seem an obsessive sort, doesn't he?
Beyond Card, I haven't noticed.
Brainbin said:
Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn have that son they both so desperately wanted!
Hmm... I'm betting it doesn't turn out as well as they hoped.:p
 
Hmm, interesting to hear about PBS. It's only fitting that a timeline featuring President Hubert Humphrey would see their funded at somewhat higher than historical levels.

Honestly, for as much of a Jim Henson I am, I didn't really watch Sesame Street when I was little, so I don't have much to say specifically regarding that or really any of PBS' educational material. (Time to go on an extremely wild tangent, though- the Senator Pastore you mentioned faced his last reelection battle in 1970, defeating Catholic priest John McLaughlin in the general election... yes, the guy from The McLaughlin Group.)

And any good pop culture timeline deserves a good dose of Ebert and Siskel.

Great stuff, Brainbin!
 
Thank you, Chuck :) I did choose to focus on Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street partly because of their great longevity, which helps to bridge the rather drastic extremes in age amongst my readership. I was able to briefly touch on the kind of show you did watch in your childhood, when I was discussing The Children's Corner: cheaply-made shows produced by local stations, often only a few minutes long and usually aired live. I really admire the pioneering experimental spirit of 1950s television...

The local children's shows when I was growing up in Sacramento had the hosts "Captain Sacto" (Harry Martin) and "Skipper Stu" Nahan. They featured Loony Tunes cartoons, with live bridge sections with the hosts. These were on the commercial channels; I hardly knew the NET channel existed.

I also watched the nationally broadcast shows The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show and Captain Kangaroo (for Tom Terrific).
 

Glen

Moderator
Thank you, Glen - and yes, you are exactly correct. The key difference is that this show has the younger, hipper Cosby character working to achieve success, and doing so through higher education, dint of hard work, and the support of his family - whereas on The Cosby Show, the character started out a success - a much bigger one, too. This is a more demonstrative and sophisticated take on most of Cosby's core values - and, perhaps, a more resonant one.

Perhaps - but don't underestimate the power of seeing the Huxtables as a power couple in professional positions - this was not how African Americans were portrayed on TV by and large up until that time.

Indeed - can you tell I'm having a lot of fun with that? :D

Yes, yes I can. Have at it and enjoy!
 
Hmm... I'm betting it doesn't turn out as well as they hoped.:p

phx1138

Actually pretty well, for Britain anyway, so far. [Yes I do mean Britain, read it and see why;)]. A hell of a TL as Space_Oddity has put in masses of detail and some monstrous butterflies are casting shadows all over Europe and starting to affect the New World. He puts in a lot of gallows humour detail where you think 'they did what!' and masses of interaction between people which makes it bloody difficult to keep track of what's going on. If you ever have a fortnight or so try and give it a read. Think the TL is up to about 1560 something currently.

Steve
 
Wow, that update made me look up Fred Rogers and damn! He really seemed to be the nicest guy in the history of the universe! I mean, did he have any flaws? Like, smoking a cigarette or drinking a light beer once a year? I guess Eddie Murphy absorbed all the flaws for his Mister Robinson parody. :D

But you see, if your timeline made me look up Fred Rogers, then your TL is probably just that good. Keep up your good work! :)
 

Thande

Donor
Wow, that update made me look up Fred Rogers and damn! He really seemed to be the nicest guy in the history of the universe! I mean, did he have any flaws? Like, smoking a cigarette or drinking a light beer once a year?

The most interesting thing I've come across about him (via Cracked.com) was that he was friends with George Romero of zombie film fame.
 
Speaking of "And Now For Something Completely Different", I was just thinking the other day how interesting how complete the displacement from the original use of the catchphrase is. It's an example of what TVTROPES calls the Weird Al Effect, when the parody becomes better known than the original, but to a really remarkable degree: hardly anyone except from the people who were kids at the right time now knows that "And Now For Something Completely Different" was the catchphrase of Blue Peter. The original joke when the Pythons used it was that they were using it to precede going to to subject that would never have appeared on a kids' show like Blue Petter ("And now for something completely different--a man with three buttocks") yet now that is completely lost on modern viewers of the show. It's a remarkable case of displacement.
Or, indeed, how a famous American patriotic anthem like the "Liberty Bell March" is instead remembered - even in the United States! - as the "Monty Python Theme". I can't claim full credit for having made that observation, of course. Someone on YouTube pointed it out. You might have heard of him ;)

Though I, for one, can claim to have heard the "Liberty Bell March" prior to and independently of its Monty Python connection. Indeed, I hadn't even heard of Monty Python until I went into high school (at age 14). Said high school was populated with exactly the kinds of nerds and geeks you'd imagine would be big Python fans. And indeed they were. Meanwhile, I was struck by Pink Floyd Syndrome ("which one is Monty"?). Eventually I was roped into watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail at a friend's house. It was funny, though obviously I couldn't help but be struck by a degree of Hype Backlash (as anyone would if they're informed that they're watching the funniest movie of all time).

Another great example of Python rather insidiously ingratiating itself into pop culture is the Spanish Inquisition sketch. No one can ever mention any inquisition of any kind without someone making the joke. Maybe nobody expects them, but everybody expects people making a joke about them! :rolleyes:

You mean Blue Peter's catchphrase wasn't always "Here's one I made earlier"?
Glad you're still reading, Maltaran :)

I really like this idea. I'd love to see how a Brit team does it differently.:cool:
I suspect that each new Muppet would have a different regional accent. Perhaps an Irish Muppet as well? Hmmm...

phx1138 said:
Like now?;)
Well done! :cool:

Hmm, interesting to hear about PBS. It's only fitting that a timeline featuring President Hubert Humphrey would see their funded at somewhat higher than historical levels.
That was my reasoning. There's a great deal of money that isn't being spent on the overseas quagmire, and though NASA will be co-opting the lion's share, what will eventually become PBS should see some gains. It should go without saying that in addition to startup funding, their budgeted revenues are also higher than IOTL.

vultan said:
Honestly, for as much of a Jim Henson I am, I didn't really watch Sesame Street when I was little, so I don't have much to say specifically regarding that or really any of PBS' educational material. (Time to go on an extremely wild tangent, though- the Senator Pastore you mentioned faced his last reelection battle in 1970, defeating Catholic priest John McLaughlin in the general election... yes, the guy from The McLaughlin Group.)
I didn't watch much Sesame Street, either - I never really cared for it. In fact, most of the PBS shows I did like were geared to older children: Ghostwriter and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego are two great examples. I'm sure I would have loved The Electric Company... if it were still on the air in the 1990s :mad:

vultan said:
And any good pop culture timeline deserves a good dose of Ebert and Siskel.
Indeed - and good on you for reversing the names! :D

vultan said:
Great stuff, Brainbin!
Thanks, vultan :)

The local children's shows when I was growing up in Sacramento had the hosts "Captain Sacto" (Harry Martin) and "Skipper Stu" Nahan. They featured Loony Tunes cartoons, with live bridge sections with the hosts. These were on the commercial channels; I hardly knew the NET channel existed.
That actually isn't too surprising - NET generally sought an adult audience (hence the nickname "University of the Air"), and had a spotty presence across the USA into the 1960s (they didn't even use the name NET until 1963). And, most importantly, the NET/PBS affiliate in Sacramento, KVIE, did not begin operations until 1959.

How are The Young Ones doing?
(Rik Mayall, Ade Edmonson et al)
Welcome aboard! That question will be answered in due time :)

Perhaps - but don't underestimate the power of seeing the Huxtables as a power couple in professional positions - this was not how African Americans were portrayed on TV by and large up until that time.
I agree - but I think there's an appeal to seeing people achieve that success. The Huxtables were already well-off at the beginning. Having Chet Kincaid earn his success would be more meaningful, especially since he would be doing so alongside many real-life African-American families in this era. He's either inspiring that or reflecting it - or both!

phx1138

Actually pretty well, for Britain anyway, so far. [Yes I do mean Britain, read it and see why;)]. A hell of a TL as Space_Oddity has put in masses of detail and some monstrous butterflies are casting shadows all over Europe and starting to affect the New World. He puts in a lot of gallows humour detail where you think 'they did what!' and masses of interaction between people which makes it bloody difficult to keep track of what's going on. If you ever have a fortnight or so try and give it a read. Think the TL is up to about 1560 something currently.
1561 - twenty-eight years after the POD. Without giving away any further details, I do recommend it to anyone who enjoys that period of history.

Wow, that update made me look up Fred Rogers and damn! He really seemed to be the nicest guy in the history of the universe! I mean, did he have any flaws? Like, smoking a cigarette or drinking a light beer once a year? I guess Eddie Murphy absorbed all the flaws for his Mister Robinson parody. :D
I've actually been thinking about this myself, ever since the update, but I believe that I have an answer: if you're at all familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, then you might recognize Mr. Rogers as an example of the elusive self-actualized individual; these are so uncommon that Maslow himself had trouble finding examples.

President Al Bundy said:
But you see, if your timeline made me look up Fred Rogers, then your TL is probably just that good. Keep up your good work! :)
Thank you very much for the kind words, and welcome aboard! :)

The most interesting thing I've come across about him (via Cracked.com) was that he was friends with George Romero of zombie film fame.
And he liked the movies, too! It seems that slapstick was his sole adversary...
 
I didn't watch much Sesame Street, either - I never really cared for it. In fact, most of the PBS shows I did like were geared to older children: Ghostwriter and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego are two great examples. I'm sure I would have loved The Electric Company... if it were still on the air in the 1990s :mad:

Speaking of Carmen Sandiego, I wonder how the game/TV franchise would do in this TL.
 
Enjoyed the update BB (apols for the really late response! I am still reading :eek:)

And re having a British set of Muppets complete with regional accents - yes please! :cool:
Thought there would be the danger they'd completely take it over :eek:

And for some reason I can't help but imagine them doing a Muppet series to introduce Shakespeare to kids - Kermit's "issues" trying to run TV show would pale in comparison :D
 

Thande

Donor
And re having a British set of Muppets complete with regional accents - yes please! :cool:
Thought there would be the danger they'd completely take it over :eek:

Regional accents would really make a British Sesame Street, it's true. That would make even more sense if it was an ITV production given that in this era they were still pushing their regional programming as their defining attribute in contrast to the BBC (quite ironic nowadays...)
 
I'll be sure to keep all of those possibilities in mind. No promises, though.

Speaking of Carmen Sandiego, I wonder how the game/TV franchise would do in this TL.
All else being equal, probably no Rockapella, alas. All of them were too young as of the POD. You see? I told you that I wasn't writing a utopia!

But, at least it gives me an opportunity to say: "Do it, Rockapella!" :D

Enjoyed the update BB (apols for the really late response! I am still reading :eek:)
Well, better late than never! :)

The Professor said:
And for some reason I can't help but imagine them doing a Muppet series to introduce Shakespeare to kids - Kermit's "issues" trying to run TV show would pale in comparison :D
That is actually a very fun idea. The Muppets have certainly tackled other literature IOTL - why not the Bard himself? Kermit and Miss Piggy as Romeo and Juliet, perhaps?

And re having a British set of Muppets complete with regional accents - yes please! :cool:
Thought there would be the danger they'd completely take it over :eek:
Regional accents would really make a British Sesame Street, it's true. That would make even more sense if it was an ITV production given that in this era they were still pushing their regional programming as their defining attribute in contrast to the BBC (quite ironic nowadays...)
Well, looking at the maps of ITV stations in this era IOTL, I might be able to devise which accents would be heard using that overlay. (There was only one change of jurisdiction during this period IOTL - Lincolnshire moved from ANGLIA to YORKSHIRE in 1974). We'll want at least one Muppet per station, obviously (excluding the Channel Islands, of course - I really don't think a feudal farmer with a Norman French accent would benefit a show with a modern, urban setting). So, I'll make my suggestions as to which accents would be heard, and you can all let me know if I'm missing any important ones, not being as intimately familiar with regional dialects:

  • THAMES/LWT (Greater London): 3. RP, Estuary, and Cockney. Anything else worth mentioning?
  • SOUTHERN (SE England): Not too sure about this one; willing to take suggestions.
  • WESTWARD (SW England): 1. West Country.
  • HTV (Wales and parts of W England): 1. Welsh. Possibly peppering his speech with common Welsh phrases and words. Bristol is the major urban centre in the English region of this channel's jurisdiction; is that accent sufficiently different from the West Country to include a Muppet from there?
  • ATV (Midlands): 1. Brummie. Any other Midlands accents worth inclusion?
  • ANGLIA (East Anglia): 1. Norwich? Cambridge? Whichever one is more "important".
  • Granada (Lancashire): 2. Scouse, Mancunian. I'm told this is one of those regions with dozens of accents, so please let me know if I've missed any major ones.
  • YORKSHIRE (Yorkshire): 1. Yorkshire. :D (Am I missing anything, Thande?)
  • TYNE TEES (NE England): 1. Geordie.
  • BORDER (Cumbria and Scottish Borders): Another one about which I'm fairly clueless.
  • SCOTTISH (Central Scotland): 2. Edinburgh, Glaswegian.
  • GRAMPIAN (NE Scotland): 1. Aberdeen. Or, barring that, Inverness (to represent the Highlanders).
  • ULSTER (Northern Ireland): 2. Scots Ulster, Irish. Obviously can't have fewer than two Muppets from Northern Ireland, one representing either of the two dominant populations. Obviously, they would be fast friends (perhaps similar to a Bert-and-Ernie dynamic?), in a very blatant but not unwelcome message.
That's a minimum of eighteen Muppets (if we include the two channels with no representative). This is the map of the regions in 1974 IOTL; the only difference from the 1968 map (the last one not subject to butterflies) is which station serves Lincolnshire. Now, we know a remote farm there where Mrs. Buckley lives. Every July, peas grow there; but the rest of year, and for the purposes of this discussion, that county is otherwise sadly irrelevant. But I look forward to your thoughts! ;)
 
Well, looking at the maps of ITV stations in this era IOTL, I might be able to devise which accents would be heard using that overlay. (There was only one change of jurisdiction during this period IOTL - Lincolnshire moved from ANGLIA to YORKSHIRE in 1974). We'll want at least one Muppet per station, obviously (excluding the Channel Islands, of course - I really don't think a feudal farmer with a Norman French accent would benefit a show with a modern, urban setting). So, I'll make my suggestions as to which accents would be heard, and you can all let me know if I'm missing any important ones, not being as intimately familiar with regional dialects:

If you live in a region, you tend to notice greater variation in accents than if you live outside, so you really want the accents that are well known nationally.

THAMES/LWT (Greater London): 3. RP, Estuary, and Cockney. Anything else worth mentioning?
SOUTHERN (SE England): Not too sure about this one; willing to take suggestions.

The seventies were a bit too early for Estuary English - It became known in the eighties, I think. You could probably use RP for SE England.

WESTWARD (SW England): 1. West Country.
HTV (Wales and parts of W England): 1. Welsh. Possibly peppering his speech with common Welsh phrases and words. Bristol is the major urban centre in the English region of this channel's jurisdiction; is that accent sufficiently different from the West Country to include a Muppet from there?

I think that you could probably get away with using a West Country accent for Bristol. I'm not sure if a Cornish accent would be distinctive enough, but if it were then that might be a good candidate for Westward.

ATV (Midlands): 1. Brummie. Any other Midlands accents worth inclusion?

My home region, so this is a little tricky. To my ear, Black Country is distinct from Brummy, but most people outside the region can't hear the difference. The East Midland (Derby/Nottingham) accent is distinctive, and if the show is being produced by ATV they might want to give some prominence to an East Midlands accent, as IOTL they were accused of ignoring the east of the region.

ANGLIA (East Anglia): 1. Norwich? Cambridge? Whichever one is more "important".

Maybe Norfolk. Bootifull !

ULSTER (Northern Ireland): 2. Scots Ulster, Irish. Obviously can't have fewer than two Muppets from Northern Ireland, one representing either of the two dominant populations. Obviously, they would be fast friends (perhaps similar to a Bert-and-Ernie dynamic?), in a very blatant but not unwelcome message.

How about making one of the accents Southern Irish ? That would be more distinctive to English ears. Plus Eire might be interested in buying the show.

There's also the possibility of including Indian, Pakistani and West Indian accents. This could be tricky - if done badly, it could come across as offensive.

Cheers,
Nigel.
 
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Is there any way the regional ITV franchises could be preserved?

(Here's a butterfly: maybe in the alternate 1982 franchise round, LWT gets an extension in broadcasting hours to 4PM Friday like they wanted. It would clip the wings of Thames and show commitment by the IBA to the weekend part of the weekday/weekend franchise split)
 

Thande

Donor
Well, looking at the maps of ITV stations in this era IOTL, I might be able to devise which accents would be heard using that overlay. (There was only one change of jurisdiction during this period IOTL - Lincolnshire moved from ANGLIA to YORKSHIRE in 1974). We'll want at least one Muppet per station, obviously (excluding the Channel Islands, of course - I really don't think a feudal farmer with a Norman French accent would benefit a show with a modern, urban setting). So, I'll make my suggestions as to which accents would be heard, and you can all let me know if I'm missing any important ones, not being as intimately familiar with regional dialects:

  • THAMES/LWT (Greater London): 3. RP, Estuary, and Cockney. Anything else worth mentioning?
  • SOUTHERN (SE England): Not too sure about this one; willing to take suggestions.
  • WESTWARD (SW England): 1. West Country.
  • HTV (Wales and parts of W England): 1. Welsh. Possibly peppering his speech with common Welsh phrases and words. Bristol is the major urban centre in the English region of this channel's jurisdiction; is that accent sufficiently different from the West Country to include a Muppet from there?
  • ATV (Midlands): 1. Brummie. Any other Midlands accents worth inclusion?
  • ANGLIA (East Anglia): 1. Norwich? Cambridge? Whichever one is more "important".
  • Granada (Lancashire): 2. Scouse, Mancunian. I'm told this is one of those regions with dozens of accents, so please let me know if I've missed any major ones.
  • YORKSHIRE (Yorkshire): 1. Yorkshire. :D (Am I missing anything, Thande?)
  • TYNE TEES (NE England): 1. Geordie.
  • BORDER (Cumbria and Scottish Borders): Another one about which I'm fairly clueless.
  • SCOTTISH (Central Scotland): 2. Edinburgh, Glaswegian.
  • GRAMPIAN (NE Scotland): 1. Aberdeen. Or, barring that, Inverness (to represent the Highlanders).
  • ULSTER (Northern Ireland): 2. Scots Ulster, Irish. Obviously can't have fewer than two Muppets from Northern Ireland, one representing either of the two dominant populations. Obviously, they would be fast friends (perhaps similar to a Bert-and-Ernie dynamic?), in a very blatant but not unwelcome message.
I don't think they would necessarily have one for each ITV region, as NCW8 said they're probably just going to go for the most recognisable and distinctive accents with accompanying stereotypes. I.e. London/Essex, Yorkshire, West Country, Birmingham, Liverpool, Newcastle, North Wales, Edinburgh, possibly Glasgow, possibly Belfast.
 
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