When last I responded to your comments, there were 896 posts, and now there are 943! So a very belated thanks to all of you for 900 posts! I remember a time, not so long ago, when I would rather desperately solicit even
one comment from the seemingly apathetic AH.com masses, but now I'm awash with them! And I wouldn't have it any other way
A very special thanks to those of you who have followed this wacky thread on its wacky journey from the very beginning - you know who you are. We're also closing on 75,000 views, and will certainly reach that threshold before the six-month anniversary of this thread (May 18), which is one more thing for me to celebrate. I've always prided myself on keeping up with questions and comments on this thread to the best of my ability, so without further delay...
Brilliantly put, Brainbin. I applaud your diplomacy.
Thank you
At the very least, I don't think it prudent to discuss the legacy of someone
who has never even been mentioned over the course of the timeline.
Like American producers, pretty much. Only they have to work with far fewer resources, a much smaller acting pool, and greater apathy from audiences.
The restriction wasn't 100%, at least not for children's programmes. I remember watching east-european cartoons such as
Krtek the little Mole in the UK. There were also some dubbed live-action series, such as
The White Horses (which the ever reliable Wikipedia states is actually a Yugoslav/West German production)
I've only ever seen
the one Soviet cartoon, myself. I found it needlessly pretentious and overly blatant in its symbolism.
(For those who don't know what he's on about, Yarwood was a talented impressionist who was successful in the 1970s by imitating the PMs and other politicians, but obviously couldn't do Mrs Thatcher).
Welcome aboard, Thande! Thanks for commenting (three times!). It sounds very much like Yarwood is the British equivalent of Vaughn Meader, who was known for his impersonation of JFK, selling millions of comedy albums doing so, until he rather suddenly found his act had expired - literally. His career, unfortunately, never recovered.
As for his popularity, his 1977 Christmas Show was the
tenth most watched broadcast in the UK in the whole of the seventies (surprisingly edging
Morcombe and Wise into eleventh place) . Note that the number one broadcast on that list has already been butterflied away ITTL.
Thank you very much for that list, Nigel. It will be an invaluable touchstone in helping me to determine the impact of alternate broadcasts ITTL.
Let's take a shot at this.
Interesting guesses, Nigel. I will confirm or deny nothing, except to say that you are not the first person to suggest Keith Joseph as Tory leader ITTL.
Anyway, turning into a bit of a rant again
At least
this time I did open the floor to the subject
And a lot of my British readers are echoing each other on major problems facing the British economy and society in the late 1970s and early 1980s, which gives me a profile of the subjects worth discussing in my future political updates.
Sure - there's plenty of possibilities. There's also the influence of the US to consider. For example, if a republican gets elected in 1976 and tries to implement Monetarism, the problems with it could be discovered before anyone tries it in the UK.
And
which Republican did you have in mind?
But, as Brainbin keeps reminding us, this is not a political TL.
Thanks for remembering, TB-EI
Quick! Give us an Update to shut us up.
I was
almost tempted to take you up on your offer and post a day earlier, but I will serve no update before its time
Also, just a note and rather off-topic, but...1000 posts!
Congratulations, e of pi. Thank you for sharing your milestone with TWR
Welcome aboard, hsthompson! Thanks for the link. I've heard a great deal about this timeline, and now I'll be able to read it.
She could go back into chemistry and work on more varieties of ice cream (no, really, that's what she did before going into politics). Somehow that seems very appropriate for the general sunny tone of this TL, picture Arthur Scargill toasting Mrs Thatcher as he bites the flake off his 99
That's a very
intriguing idea, Thande. And I do find it appealing, because I'm a man who loves his ice cream, and it looks like Mrs Thatcher had an important hand in making it more enjoyable for all of us. Who knows what the future holds? (And by the way, to answer your earlier question: yes it did help, thank you very much
)
Is it a given this even happens? I recognize a policy change away from Israel, let alone so soon after POD, is improbable; even a small change might have material impact, perhaps enough to mitigate, or even butterfly, this.
This is where the foreshadowing comes into play. Humphrey
has to take a hardline against the Arabs in support of their ally, because he has expended all of his foreign policy capital on resolving the overseas quagmire. Especially since the Republicans and the Scoop Jackson Democrats, taken together, now form a majority in both houses of Congress. Therefore, the Arabs impose the embargo on the United States, which results in the Oil Crisis, and coupled with a bear market, welcome to a new recession!
I think that Brainbin has already refered to the Oil Shock happening.
Indeed I did, though it was in the post about the space program, which was 7,000 words long, and I mentioned it very much as an aside, because this timeline is going to focus on the
after-effects of that event, and how impacts popular culture, rather than the event itself.
A nice solid update. I find it very likely that Re-Genesis would be a one-season wonder (not even Desilu was likely to nurse that through to three seasons). I am glad, however, to see the Questor Tapes which I found fascinating as a movie when I was young - I hope the series does well enough at least to make it to three seasons and thus more success in syndication.
Thank you, Glen
There are several reasons I'm giving
Questor the shot ITTL - first of all, it never got one IOTL, unlike
Genesis II (which was eventually resurrected as
Andromeda); it was of a genre that was very popular in the 1970s (a
Walking The Earth action-adventure series); and it would be able to avail itself of the famous
Desilu backlot (in addition to
Kirk's Rock and other famous location shoots). As for its original run? It will last
at least as long as
Re-Genesis
Glen said:
It's nice for many to see Kojak show up, though I think an actual Kojak series was more perturbable than most (not necessarily that Savales wouldn't have had a vehicle, maybe even a cop one), but I think it is still in the realm of possibility that it comes about.
After so valiantly fighting to keep Henry Winkler on
Rock Around the Clock, and continuing to insist that Lis Sladen has an excellent chance of being cast for Sarah Jane Smith, you're
that willing to write off
Kojak?
Well, to be honest, keeping it is actually more logical than it might seem. The original pilot movie that featured Kojak was based on a notorious, pre-POD case that was prime material for a fictional adaptation. Telly Savalas wants a regular series commitment, likes the idea of playing a detective... it seems a very natural fit to re-create the conditions of Kojak. Also, it provided me with the most famous catchphrase of the 1973-74 season, which is almost reason enough by itself
Glen said:
I'm actually a bit surprised that the Muppet Show went to Desilu. Not disappointed, mind, just surprised.
Nobody else would have bought it in the United States. In fact, one of Henson's principal backers IOTL, George Schlatter, has been thoroughly discredited ITTL (after tangling with none other than That Wacky Redhead herself). Luckily for Henson, Herb Solow remembers him from
Star Trek, where his puppetry so moved the cast and crew (as well as audiences) that he's convinced there may be something to Henson's pitch of an all-puppet variety show (though with human special guests, of course).
Also, I probably would have faced a revolt if I
hadn't sent
The Muppet Show off to Desilu
Glen said:
I am also a bit surprised to see Mannix hanging in there - but then again, I am really not familiar with the OTL series, so can't comment as much.
Mannix lasted until
1975 IOTL, believe it or not. CBS doesn't have quite as many of their other hits, so they're even
less likely to cancel it ITTL, because it's less expendable.
Glen said:
I think you need to get NBC some diversification of hits.
Frankly, it's something of a miracle that NBC is doing as well as it is ITTL. The mid-1970s were a
very bad time for that network, and Fred Silverman jumping ship to them (after his tenures at CBS, then ABC), rather than being their salvation, nearly drove them into
bankruptcy in 1980. It's difficult to overstate how miraculous their 1980s recovery, and then dominance, really was IOTL. They'd be considerably worse off without their "black shows", as both
Bill Cosby and
Flip Wilson lead into two other hit shows (the Monday Night Movie and
Ironside, respectively;
none of these shows were in the Top 30 in this season IOTL). This is partly because all three of their "black shows" also have very large
white audiences. It's not a perfect comparison with the OTL "black networks" of FOX and then UPN, which
did genuinely attract disproportionately "urban" viewers. But the 1970s were a far less politically correct era than the 1990s, and so detractors are more willing and able to make themselves heard.
Splendid update! Nice to see demographic changes in an ATL...
Thank you very much! Demography is one of my other interests, partly because it ties so nicely into psephology (
another of my other interests).
Thanks, vultan
vultan said:
I wonder, if he could form a creature shop analogue earlier than OTL, and start doing even more extensive work in TV and the movies, could he have a popular legacy that more accurately reflects the full body of his work?
This is a very good question, and it certainly speaks to me, as an admirer of practical effects. The obvious difference is that any Creature Shop would be based in Los Angeles, not London, as that is where
The Muppet Show will be filmed for the duration of its run (well, technically Desilu is in Culver City, but you get the idea). But all that obviously hinges on whether
The Muppet Show will be the runaway success ITTL that it was IOTL, and how That Wacky Redhead, as opposed to Lew Grade, will respond to that.
vultan said:
He could try it out if buoyed by the success of The Muppet Show. Then again, if it's produced in the near future of the timeline, it would more than likely end up as a pilot that's not picked up for a full series order.
One thing worth noting is that although Henson and his crew kept fairly busy during the production of
The Muppet Show IOTL, he may not have that opportunity so soon ITTL. They're going to have to produce 26 episodes in 39 weeks (compared to 24 per year for ATV), in addition to their
other commitments elsewhere.
vultan said:
Anyway, about the mini-boom in birth rates. I assume that, in addition to it not being as numerically significant as the Baby Boom, it's also a lot shorter, sandwiched between the tumultuous 1960's and the crappy economy of the mid-to-late 1970's.
You are correct, sir! The "Mini-Boom" lasts from 1970 to 1974, though some demographers claim 1969 as the starting point instead.
vultan said:
Keep up the fantastic work, Brainbin!
I'll certainly do my best, especially if you keep up the encouraging words
As always, a fascinating and detailed story! I wish I was as versed on the ins and outs of TV as you are.
Thank you, Orville_third. It's been very nice, these last few months, putting these seemingly trivial interest of mine to constructive use
Interesting post - I wonder what Lew Grade and ATV will do without the Muppet Show. Being made in the US, the show is obviously going to have a different list of Guest stars (for example I'd guess that Bruce Forsyth wouldn't appear).
Thank you. I can guarantee that Chris Langham will never appear on
The Muppet Show, that's for sure.
NCW8 said:
Speaking of Dr Who and the Mini-Boom - IOTL Connie Booth and John Cleese had a daughter in Feb 1971. Presumably, Connie's appearance on Dr Who will have changed that.
Excellent observation. Cynthia Cleese will indeed
not be born on ITTL; that makes her the first person I've explicitly butterflied away,
and all on account of That Wacky Redhead!
NCW8 said:
I also wonder what happened to Katy Manning's career ITTL. Presumably she remained a theatre actress. There obviously won't be that infamous photo-shoot with a Dalek ITTL !
When in doubt, keep them in the theatre. British actors, especially, seem to be happier there anyway
So essentially this Mini-boom is of similar proportions to the Echo Boom that produced the Millenials (though obviously the character of the generation will be very different, they both seem to be of similar size)? Hmm. A larger generation in the early to mid 70s (smaller but at least comparable to the Boomers) would seem to dilute some of the cutlural effects that the dominance of the Boomers has had IOTL, which could be interesting. For instance (and I know this is way beyond the scope of the TL, but it's what occurs to me) there'd be less issue with the Boomers all turning 65 near the same time and starting to collect Social Security if there's a ~15-20 year young cohort of at least comparable size that's still at its prime working years. Obviously about 40 years away from the present moment of the TL, and about 25-30 years beyond the end you've set for the coverage, but it occurs to me. It's an interesting (perhaps even intriguing) demographic effect.
A very well-reasoned hypothesis. The Echo Boom (the generation to which I belong, incidentally) was an inspiration in devising the "Mini-Boom", but it
was also partly a means of addressing the present-day problem of aging Baby Boomers. And indeed, ITTL, these Boomers would have probably gone into early retirement, rather than continuing to work past 65, allowing the Mini-Boomers, who are just entering middle age, to be promoted into their positions, thus opening up entry- and mid-level positions for younger generations. And this analysis inspired me to do some very quick number-crunching on my preliminary figures, and ITTL, during the years 1969-74, there have been an additional 4.6 million live births, an increase of 22.5% from OTL. If you remove 1969 from the equation, the increase for the remaining years goes well above 25% (over 4.5 million live births).
Intriguing as ever, Brainbin.
Kojak and The Muppets make it to air. Who loves ya BB? We do!
Thank you, thank you
What can I say? I do my best to give the people what they want!
Falkenburg said:
Hopefully Grade still takes a hand with The Muppets, even if only as overseas distributor.
I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say that he would be first in line for the opportunity.
Let me join the chorus of praise.
Nice work, as usual. (I think I'd be surprised if it wasn't.
)
Thank you very much, phx. I must say
I'm a little surprised that you didn't have more to say, but sometimes less is more
phx1138 said:
I never noticed the "childless" shows trend, tho (at the time) I did like the fact Mary & Rhoda weren't the seeming cliche "married with kids". Nor was Maude the cliche wife. (I especially liked her.
)
You probably didn't notice because, IOTL, it was actually reflective of societal changes at the time. The Silent Generation wasn't
having kids at nearly the same rate as the Greatest Generation. And Boomers obviously didn't settle down right away. Here, the urge to settle down and start a family is much stronger in TTL society; even the hippies being urged to "
get a real job" are likelier to
actually do it, because jobs are plentiful in the good economy (the same is obviously true of those formerly disgruntled college students). Family values critics notice this, and are unsurprisingly dismayed at the lack of nuclear families on television. We'll have to see how this affects the studios and the networks - and, more importantly, their
productions - in the longer run.
Nigel - sang this to my kids - they liked it.
How did you get the second line to fit the meter?
Another awesome update, as per usual. I'm really looking forward to the 1980s and 90s, myself. Curious to see what the future holds for Star Trek, and curious to see what'll become of shows like SeaQuest DSV and Babylon 5 as well.
Thank you, PW MAX! Glad to know you're still reading
I just came upon this article. How is the Laugh Track in this TL? How is animation for that matter? Has Disney changed?
Relatively few changes from OTL on all fronts. The laugh track is in decline, in favour of live studio audiences; animation remains
highly limited, with one of the finest examples in terms of quality during the early 1970s IOTL (
Star Trek TAS, of course) sadly missing, making the picture even
more bleak in comparison; and Uncle Walt died on schedule, thus leaving his studio in creative shambles.
Robin Hood, released around this time ITTL
and IOTL, is replete with recycled animation, for example.
(By the 1980's, all eyes are on J. Michael Straczynski...)
Hold that thought; we may yet come back to it.
Does he still write "The Complete Book of Scriptwriting"? (I have a copy- and it's excellent!)
Assuming that he becomes a scriptwriter, it may well be possible. I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
I believe that JMS will still create Babylon 5. But it is also possible that he is not forced to change certain plot elements of the series.
I'm glad this update has brought so many of my old regulars out of the woodwork!
As to whether or not he creates
Babylon 5, it's hard to say. Something that all of you need to take into account is that he was only 12 years old at the POD. How many ideas did
you have when you were twelve that you held onto?
Agree with what others have said about an excellent update. I have forgotten about the lolly-pop addict, a real blast from the past. Also good to see the Muppets surviving.
Thank you, Steve
Finally caught up on this timeline. Great job.
Thank you very much, Patrick! I appreciate your interest. Now, I won't be able to answer all of your many questions, because some of them will be covered in future updates, possibly as soon as within this cycle, but I will address some of them. But I do appreciate them, and I hope to eventually answer as many of them as possible.
unclepatrick said:
What other British Sci fi Show make primetime?
UFO was first broadcast by CBS in the 1972-73 season. The second season,
UFO 1999, aired on that network the following year. These are the only two seasons featuring Michael Billington, also known as the next James Bond, thus making him familiar to American audiences (similarly to Roger Moore, who appeared as
The Saint).
unclepatrick said:
I am looking forward to futher parts of this timeline.
And I look forward to writing them
With regard to my beloved B5, J. Michael is still likely ITTL to get into TV at which point he is likely to think about how to keep costs on an SF series down which is likely to lead him to the space station idea for a series. He also by nature seems to like long story/plot archs so that is likely to be seen as well. He probably will come up something akin to B5.
I repeat for emphasis: He is
12 years old at the POD. He will be coming of age in a society rather different from that of OTL. He may well become a professional writer (many writers tend to start writing at a very young age, hence the proliferation of
juvenilia), but this is far from guaranteed. He may well feel increased pressure to "
get a real job", as so many creative-class types will ITTL, relative to our own. That's something to bear in mind with regards to his career trajectory.
Who stared in the Questor Tapes in this Timeline? Nimoy was originaly consider before Robert Foxworth
Foxworth has the role ITTL (for lack of a better replacement coming to mind). The memories of
Star Trek are too fresh for Nimoy to agree to another series commitment, and besides, his side hobby of directing is very rapidly evolving into a career of its own. And playing Questor's human sidekick? Wayne Rogers
And there we are! All caught up. The next update should be ready in a couple of days. Until then!