That Wacky Redhead

[ChucK Y]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Chuck Though you're absolutely right, of course.

It was simply a comment on the difficulty of the task, not expressing any doubt in your ability to accomplish it. TTL has been both surprising and plausible, accomplishing a successful balancing act.

 

[statichaos]

No specific comments, but I'm still enjoying the hell out of this.

 

[jpj1421]

Great stuff, my only comment is that Koenig had two kids in OTL. Andy Koenig who would become a producer on Never Not Funny before killing himself two years ago, and Danielle Koenig who is a comedian and married to Jimmy Pardo who hosts Never Not Funny. She was born in 1973. So maybe they had a third kid in this timeline, heh.

 

[Brainbin]

Richard Dean Anderson, IIRC, got his start on General Hospital as Jeff Webber in the 1970s and left in 1981.

Many, many actors got their start on soap operas in the 1970s IOTL. That won't change ITTL.

Maybe he stays on in TTL (assuming General Hospital isn't canceled--it came pretty close in the 1970s)?

To put it bluntly, anyone with talent or potential never stayed for long; they would always find better opportunities. Those people who stayed behind were either utterly unable to succeed elsewhere, or their careers were simply winding down. For the most part.

BTW, Brainbin, a lot of General Hospital's late 1970s and 1980s stuff is at youtube.com (let's hope, if you get to it, that the mob characters don't take over the show, IMO).

In my upcoming post about all that isn't in primetime, I plan on taking only a brief look at soap operas. In the event that "Love in the Afternoon" takes off later in the decade (as it did IOTL), I'll revisit soap operas and provide a more detailed analysis.

In this particular instance I'm not so much advocating for either to happen, just saying what could happen again, and what I think you need to demonstrate if it doesn't happen - you've done such a good job of showing how the changes are chaining off the original POD, don't just butterfly the Fonz - if he won't show, then give a clear chain of events changing it.

I assure you that I have a plan in mind here. I simply request that you stop guessing what it is. You're a little too good at it

I wonder if Stallone will get cast as Arthur Fonzerelli instead.

Now that is simply ASB, good sir

Yeah - I had a pretty reliable source into Trek fandom as a friend in high school in the 1980s, and it was amazing the crap that was being talked about Shatner at the time, well before it came out in the general public. And I can tell you for a fact one of the sources for that really was Doohan. Basically what I am saying here to your readers, Brainbin, is that you are actually showing things very much akin to OTL in this regard.

Thank you Doohan was certainly well-known for his very vocal hatred of Shatner; George Takei seems to have picked up the slack in the years since his death. I would be surprised that Shatner has been so successful at resurrecting his career IOTL; but considering that many others have done far worse things than he, and have also enjoyed seemingly full recoveries, I really shouldn't be.

It would be interesting to see her as a Doctor Who writer, but really, I'd be fine if she didn't as well. Just do something interesting with her.

As IOTL, Fontana will primarily find work as a freelance writer, and I'll do my best to chronicle her assorted exploits.

Ergo, there will NOT be a Fonz ITTL! There may, however, be a Mash!

Now that I will neither confirm nor deny, though I will repeat my request that you stop guessing

So if you DON'T have Henry Winkler playing "The Mash" it is very likely that the show is a one season wonder then canceled.

I think you underestimate his TTL replacement. And that's all I have to say on the matter.

I'm wondering if you realize what you've done -- if the Enterprise and Doctor Who now exist in the same universe, it's now inevitable that fans clamor to see the Klingons doing battle with the Daleks...

And that, my friend, is the precise reason why fan fiction exists

Oh, I think he realizes - he will try to ignore it.

O, ye of little faith!

Hmmm, has anyone noticed the similarities between Ogrons and Klingons?

No, and neither would anyone ITTL where, as you know, Klingons look like this.

Sorry if you misunderstood. Okuda did a good job on the new stuff, but I apologize if he didn't do so well on the old stuff. Sorry for the bad impression. It was not intended as an insult. (I was just comparing their roles as compilers.)

I owe you an apology, Orville_third. Okuda's newfound - and unwarranted - association with the original series IOTL has coloured my impression of him in general, and it's a very sore spot with me. But I really shouldn't have flown off the handle like that in response to a simple question. Comparing their roles as compilers is definitely valid. (Basically I'm merging OTL Gerrold with Bjo Trimble.)

On Takei's political career -- I know he won't be President, but I'm hoping that doesn't mean a US congressional career is out of the running (potentially even, dare I say, US Senator...)

I'll broaden that supposition to say, simply, that higher legislative office, in general, is the likeliest destination for him. And yes, that could mean as minor a promotion as California State Assemblyman. Or, indeed, as big a climb as United States Senator.

It was simply a comment on the difficulty of the task, not expressing any doubt in your ability to accomplish it. TTL has been both surprising and plausible, accomplishing a successful balancing act.

Thank you very much for the compliment, Chuck And you're very right; because, believe me, it has not been easy.

No specific comments, but I'm still enjoying the hell out of this.

And thank you very much, statichaos; I'm very glad to hear it

Great stuff, my only comment is that Koenig had two kids in OTL. Andy Koenig who would become a producer on Never Not Funny before killing himself two years ago, and Danielle Koenig who is a comedian and married to Jimmy Pardo who hosts Never Not Funny. She was born in 1973. So maybe they had a third kid in this timeline, heh.

Welcome aboard! Thank you for your compliment, and especially for your constructive criticism! An unfortunate oversight on my part, but now I've taken care of it. Their decision to have another child ITTL is actually symbolic of societal changes relative to OTL, so I'll just bump the number from two to three. Now, the Koenigs may well have only wanted the ideal nuclear family (one boy and one girl) in any event; so, just in case, I made the second child a boy, to provide that impetus to try for a girl.

 

[Glen]

I assure you that I have a plan in mind here. I simply request that you stop guessing what it is. You're a little too good at it

Oh, very well - can't blame a guy for having a bit of fun now, can you? I will take your word that you have another cunning plan and wait for it with bated breath.

Now that is simply ASB, good sir

Yep, that was a bit jumping the shark.

Thank you Doohan was certainly well-known for his very vocal hatred of Shatner; George Takei seems to have picked up the slack in the years since his death. I would be surprised that Shatner has been so successful at resurrecting his career IOTL; but considering that many others have done far worse things than he, and have also enjoyed seemingly full recoveries, I really shouldn't be.

His biggest problem was lack of awareness - he corrected that in his later life.

As IOTL, Fontana will primarily find work as a freelance writer, and I'll do my best to chronicle her assorted exploits.

That works.

Now that I will neither confirm nor deny, though I will repeat my request that you stop guessing

I will try to refrain for a time and give you an opportunity to show us.

I think you underestimate his TTL replacement. And that's all I have to say on the matter.

Oooh, now that sounds interesting! I will, however, refrain from prognosticating on who 'The Mash' will be ITTL.

O, ye of little faith!

No, just thinking that it was something you didn't want to get too deep into.

No, and neither would anyone ITTL where, as you know, Klingons look like this.

.

True enough, true enough. Shall I take that to mean we won't see a reimaging of the Klingons in the inevitable movies?

 

[phx1138]

POTUS Takei?

I find that very unlikely, considering U.S. racial attitudes.

think he might get drawn back into film/TV sci-fi later on anyway?

Didn't he co-produce a lo-budget SF film?

Speaking of which, if Henry Winkler's working anything like regularly, it gives him the finances to set up his own production company. (It worked for Garner in the '50s, & he wasn't getting paid nearly what Winkler would be.)

Did James Blish write the short story versions of the episodes as OTL?

He did, & I also recall they were based on early scripts, not the final shooting draft. (I don't recall any big changes, but it's been at least 20yr since I read any of 'em. Nor was I a fan of Blish.) David doing the adaptations makes it likely they'll sell better, too.

OTOH, does this impact David's SF writing career generally? I'd hate to lose The Man Who Folded Himself. OTGH, it may mean Galactic Whirlpool comes up as a potential "ST" film project. (Excellent book, too, BTW.)

the non-drawing equivalent of Mike Okuda as well?

Ouch, what an insulting analogy!

My two cents, if anybody cares, is Okuda is out of bounds for tampering with original work. It's no different than colorizing "Citizen Kane". I don't mean buffing the fx shots & such, I mean recutting the episodes. This is megalomania...

But in all seriousness, vultan hits the nail on the head here. So many butterflies will have accumulated by the early 1990s that it's difficult to say what might happen. And indeed, at this time, I have no plans of going past 1986, partly for that very reason.

OT question: do you reject on principle the "inertia" of events keeping things going a particular direction?

to the darkly tragicomic ("St. Elsewhere"), to everything in between ("L.A. Law").

I'm deeply embarassed to admit I'd forgotten both. I watched both from the start, & liked both (unitl they wimped out when Humana complained, & ended with the "autistic dream" copout.)

We'll have to see about that.

Sayonara. (Which most people don't know really means, "So be it." Or "Red Buttons is nominated for an Oscar". I get them confused.)

Kalvan seems to agree with you. Once again, I say that actions speak louder than words.

I understood he didn't get the opportunities, in the same way Bruce never did. (Same reasons? IDK.)

All right, I'll tell you what. In The Godfather ITTL, Coppola's desired cast will prevail as well. How about that?

Personally, I'd drop Cazale to the bottom of a lake before shooting started.

I have been plotting rough network schedules for every season. Remember The Rating Game? I've been making similar drafts for subsequent cycles, though not quite as detailed and carefully formatted.

Any of those you feel like sharing, I, for one, would enjoy knowing about.

You may always be so bold, if it's in service of delivering praise

I would say you don't only speak for yourself, either, but serve as voice for those of us who haven't thought to actually say it. (And should.)

good thing, too, because they were awful

Somebody pointed out to me it's a mark of a writer's maturity to be able to recognize that fact. (I only wish I know how before years passed.)
Excellent point. Expect a strong feedback loop between the two fandoms. In the early 1970s ITTL, I would call the Star Trek and Doctor Who fan communities about equally strong in the United Kingdom. (There is still "new" Star Trek to be seen, as they're a couple of years behind; Doctor Who is also not yet the institution that it would become in later years.) In the United States, Star Trek is still far stronger, as they've both made about the same proportional gains compared to OTL. Canada is probably somewhere in the middle.

a barrage of posts to create a more comprehensive picture of how the people of TTL see the world, and how that perspective differs from OTL.

So it's only going to get better.

Even phx likes him!

I'll sidestep your "Mork and Mindy" discussion, to address Robin Williams directly. Many of you are old enough to remember that he was a breath of fresh air when he first hit the scene in the late 1970s, and for those of you who, like me, were born well after his breakthrough: even if you don't like him, or find him overrated, or stale, I don't think that anyone can dispute that he is the best at what he does. Even if he doesn't find himself a vehicle in the vein of "Mork and Mindy", I definitely see him hitting the mainstream, perhaps in the old-fashioned way (as a manic, high-energy counterpart to the drier, more acerbic comedians of the era).

Let me turn that around. His manic style works really well in standup, but IMO less well in a structured environment like a sitcom. It may be producers won't think he's suitable material. It's very likely IMO they won't recognize he can be a serious actor (& he's done some quite good serious work; comedy's harder than most people think).

IOTL, he was a favourite of Johnny Carson, and was even invited to be one of this last official guests (alongside Bette Midler, the one whom everybody actually remembers). A standup appearance on The Tonight Show could be his ticket. It certainly was for many other comedians.

Not could. Would. One app on Carson could make your career. An ask-back, you've made it, & you can more/less pick the venues you want: all the big ones will be calling you. (Happened all the time OTL. Not sure if Leno carried the weight.)

my own favourite episode, "The Doomsday Machine"

Brace yourself: that would make my top 10, too.

"The Final Frontier", also known as "Into the Final Frontier" (because Doohan always ends his opening narration with that phrase).

Keep that thought close to your vest for a while. Though I will say that Sagan is definitely going to stick to his "wonders of the universe" style. Though he'll no doubt approve of "The Final Frontier", he definitely strikes me as more of a "big picture"-type.

I'm seeing both being big hits: making science, especially space science, popular. (Either, or both, making Isaac a major contributor? {After reading his editorial every month in IAsfm for about a decade, I felt like I knew him, so...})

To be fair to Takei, he had a genuine passion for civic planning issues, and he'll focus on that during his tenure on city council. If and when he seeks higher office, then yes, he'll obviously meet popular expectations as a strong advocate of the space program.

I'm seeing a bit of Mayor Clint. Which offers an opportunity (if a small one) for an appearance in other media. (Before they blow up Las Vegas?)

Gerrold, privy to the entire story development process, can add ideas that were too expensive or time-consuming to realize on the show itself.

That will tend to induce the completists to buy them anyhow, if the new version doesn't do that on its own.

treat the Gerrold versions as the "new normal", thereby forcing consumers to read them.

Good to hear they aren't casually retconning. As said, I'd bet on a lot of the more-hardcore fans buying them regardless.

We'll have to see where Fontana's career will take her. She's fielding an awful lot of offers in this era.

Then let me offer one vote for her getting major screenwriting success. An Academy Award nom? A win? (For adapting Galactic Whirlpool? Which need not include the Trek aspects to be a really good film. Or book.) A very underappreciated talent, IMO.

Richard Dean Anderson, IIRC, got his start on General Hospital as Jeff Webber in the 1970s and left in 1981.

So says WP. If he quit in '81, I probably watched a few of those...& didn't see him. (Busy watching Emma, no doubt. I didn't even notice Demi.)

Maybe he stays on in TTL

Given the workload, I would be surprised if he stays longer than OTL. 14-16h days 6/week is no fun.

There is enough room for change, of course, but I am saying that I think there is a good chance that Winkler would try out for the show, and that if that happens you will get the Fonz. So it's something that could recur in this timeline. If you don't want it to happen, then just have him doing something else at the time that would preclude getting involved in the show. In this particular instance I'm not so much advocating for either to happen, just saying what could happen again, and what I think you need to demonstrate if it doesn't happen - you've done such a good job of showing how the changes are chaining off the original POD, don't just butterfly the Fonz - if he won't show, then give a clear chain of events changing it.

Allow me to second that. I take a view there's a certain amount of inertia in events, in people's lives, so it's possible to change outcomes, but it can take real effort sometimes. So, the OTL Fonz isn't out of bounds.

I wonder if Stallone will get cast as Arthur Fonzerelli instead.

That has an appeal for sheer shock value. (It also suggests "no 'Rocky'".)

if you DON'T have Henry Winkler playing "The Mash" it is very likely that the show is a one season wonder then canceled.

Stallone, in a failed series?

I think you underestimate his TTL replacement.

Considering the careful casting choices thus far, I daresay he'll be a good one.

 

[The Professor]

...*breathes* and caught up.

Need to loosen my belt a bit

Intrigued about what this alt-Fonzie will be like and what Mr Winkler shall be doing

 

[The Blue-Eyed Infidel]

I was reading My Year of Flops last night and was struck by its discussion of Mame (Google books preview here); obviously it won't be happening ITTL, as That Wacky Redhead has given up acting.

If it still gets made ITTL, with Angela Lansbury in the lead as was anticipated, the butterflies with her career probably eliminate Murder, She Wrote, among other changes. (I would anticipate it being a modest success instead of a failure ITTL; Lansbury apparently got good reviews in the Broadway version).

Interested in Brainbin's thoughts on this.

TB-EI

ETA - and also interested in Brainbin's thoughts on other careers that may be affected by TWR's decision to give up acting, as opposed to the decision to remain head of Desilu.

 

[stevep]

Brainbin

Just catching up and must congratulate you on the final summary for ST. Fascinating summary of what might have been and how the players react.

Possibly I'm biased but I would have considered the Doctor firmly established as a classic by 72-73. [Mind you I had been watching it for about 6 years by then.]

Steve

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Considering the careful casting choices thus far, I daresay he'll be a good one.

I actually thought I had a very interesting fit, but looked and he would be a bit too young in 1973; I was surprised thatWinkler was a decade older or thereabouts than this man, so i don't see them wanting the one I thought of.

And, to prevent Brainbin from getting too mad in case I *did* guess right, I will not say who I thought of. And it might help Brainbin by keeping people from guessing who *he* has picked.

 

[phx1138]

I actually thought I had a very interesting fit, but looked and he would be a bit too young in 1973; I was surprised thatWinkler was a decade older or thereabouts than this man, so i don't see them wanting the one I thought of.

And, to prevent Brainbin from getting too mad in case I *did* guess right, I will not say who I thought of. And it might help Brainbin by keeping people from guessing who *he* has picked.

You're such a tease.

 

[Brainbin]

Oh, very well - can't blame a guy for having a bit of fun now, can you? I will take your word that you have another cunning plan and wait for it with bated breath.

Good. Thank you very much

His biggest problem was lack of awareness - he corrected that in his later life.

Indeed he did. With aplomb, I might add.

True enough, true enough. Shall I take that to mean we won't see a reimaging of the Klingons in the inevitable movies?

You should know by now that nothing is inevitable

I find that very unlikely, considering U.S. racial attitudes.

It's because I said the "R"-word. Senate is feasible - California elected a Japanese-American Senator (foreign-born, to boot; though from Canada, not Japan) in 1976 IOTL - but President is not. That said, I think of all the minorities of TTL, Asian-Americans (still known mostly as "Orientals" in this era) are doing the best, relative to OTL. (That said, that's a very difficult metric to quantify.)

Speaking of which, if Henry Winkler's working anything like regularly, it gives him the finances to set up his own production company. (It worked for Garner in the '50s, & he wasn't getting paid nearly what Winkler would be.)

Perhaps - if he finds himself working primarily in television or the movies. If he's mostly on the stage, then why bother?

David doing the adaptations makes it likely they'll sell better, too.

He'll certainly promote them more aggressively than Blish. Probably bring loads of them with him to conventions.

OTOH, does this impact David's SF writing career generally? I'd hate to lose The Man Who Folded Himself. OTGH, it may mean Galactic Whirlpool comes up as a potential "ST" film project. (Excellent book, too, BTW.)

He'll start writing his own works in the mid-1970s, once he's done chronicling the production run of the show, and addressing the most grievous missteps (by his estimation) in the various adaptations.

My two cents, if anybody cares, is Okuda is out of bounds for tampering with original work. It's no different than colorizing "Citizen Kane".

I am in complete agreement with you there. And what an excellent analogy!

I don't mean buffing the fx shots & such

Well, I do. They're completely incongruous with the rest of the footage now. Not to mention that they're very shoddily done. I've seen fans do better re-masterings. This fellow here, for example. His (sadly stillborn) effort at re-doing the effects for "The Doomsday Machine" is head-and-shoulders above the "official" remastered episode.

I mean recutting the episodes. This is megalomania...

Indeed. And, of course, they have forced us to watch these patchwork monstrosities in syndication.

OT question: do you reject on principle the "inertia" of events keeping things going a particular direction?

No, but as a man you greatly admire once said: "History is replete with turning points." That's just as true in the entertainment industry as it is anywhere else. A surprisingly large amount of iconic pop culture moments were created when somebody took a chance, or tried to shake up the existing status quo. Things would be very different if everyone had followed the path of least resistance.

Which most people don't know really means, "So be it." Or "Red Buttons is nominated for an Oscar".

Wins an Oscar, my friend. Buttons is one of the earliest examples of Tom Hanks Syndrome, decades ahead of the Trope Namer.

Personally, I'd drop Cazale to the bottom of a lake before shooting started.

I understand that's a reference to his character's ultimate fate, but it's still rather morbid, considering his untimely death IOTL.

Any of those you feel like sharing, I, for one, would enjoy knowing about.

It's very time-consuming, converting my rough notes into a legible update. Not to mention that I would have to start in 1969-70 and work my way forward to catch up. Maybe once I'm done writing the timeline, and am in the process of making my revisions.

So it's only going to get better.

Oh, go on

Let me turn that around. His manic style works really well in standup, but IMO less well in a structured environment like a sitcom. It may be producers won't think he's suitable material.

The writers and producers of "Mork & Mindy" found a very effective way around it IOTL - they would just insert "Robin can go off here" into all the scripts. (Needless to say, this became a recurring theme in his comedic career.)

It's very likely IMO they won't recognize he can be a serious actor (& he's done some quite good serious work; comedy's harder than most people think).

I again refer you to Tom Hanks Syndrome. It's more unlikely that he wouldn't eventually make the crossover.

Not could. Would. One app on Carson could make your career. An ask-back, you've made it, & you can more/less pick the venues you want: all the big ones will be calling you.

Very true. And he also did this right up until the end.

Brace yourself: that would make my top 10, too.

Glad to hear that even you recognize that episode's greatness Since the Star Trek discussion is mostly over now, we can find new ways of keeping it alive. Would everyone like to list their Top 10 OTL episodes? I'll start with mine. In approximate order of preference:

• "The Doomsday Machine"
• "Mirror, Mirror"
• "The Trouble With Tribbles"
• "The City on the Edge of Forever"
• "Journey To Babel"
• "Balance of Terror"
• "The Devil in the Dark"
• "Amok Time"
• "The Immunity Syndrome"
• "The Corbomite Maneuver"

Hon. Mentions: "The Man Trap", "The Naked Time", "The Squire of Gothos", "A Piece of the Action", "The Tholian Web".

I think you can tell, looking at that list, what my "type" of episode is

I'm seeing both being big hits: making science, especially space science, popular.

Well, don't forget exactly which network "The Final Frontier" is airing on. It's definitely not coming on strong out of the gate.

(Either, or both, making Isaac a major contributor?

I know he went into educating in his later career (which is how I first heard of him, in fact), just as Sagan started writing science-fiction. But I won't guarantee anything. Sagan certainly won't need him, and depending on where "The Final Frontier" is filmed, Doohan will have engineers or physicists from either the University of Toronto or McGill University at his disposal.

That will tend to induce the completists to buy them anyhow, if the new version doesn't do that on its own.

Good to hear they aren't casually retconning. As said, I'd bet on a lot of the more-hardcore fans buying them regardless.

Absolutely true. And Desilu is banking on that.

Then let me offer one vote for her getting major screenwriting success. An Academy Award nom? A win? (For adapting Galactic Whirlpool? Which need not include the Trek aspects to be a really good film. Or book.) A very underappreciated talent, IMO.

Indeed she is. (Though that's a good deal less true ITTL.) I'll to keep your suggestion in mind.

Considering the careful casting choices thus far, I daresay he'll be a good one.

I can guarantee that he'll be an intriguing one

Intrigued about what this alt-Fonzie will be like and what Mr Winkler shall be doing

You shall find out the former very shortly; and perhaps the latter as well, in due time.

I was reading My Year of Flops last night and was struck by its discussion of Mame (Google books preview here); obviously it won't be happening ITTL, as That Wacky Redhead has given up acting.

A very astute observation - I was wondering when somebody would get to Mame. By all accounts, That Wacky Redhead was the worst thing about it, and her lack of involvement ITTL will be significant.

If it still gets made ITTL, with Angela Lansbury in the lead as was anticipated, the butterflies with her career probably eliminate Murder, She Wrote, among other changes. (I would anticipate it being a modest success instead of a failure ITTL; Lansbury apparently got good reviews in the Broadway version).

The film will still be made ITTL. Musicals are not yet the box-office poison that they would be in, say, the 1980s and 1990s IOTL. I see no reason to cast anyone other than Lansbury as the lead (That Wacky Redhead lobbied hard for the part IOTL, which she won't be doing here), and since she's a better actress and singer, I see no reason why that won't be a huge boon for the film.

ETA - and also interested in Brainbin's thoughts on other careers that may be affected by TWR's decision to give up acting, as opposed to the decision to remain head of Desilu.

Don't forget "The Brady Bunch"! Or more accurately, the lack thereof. That's at least nine careers, right there

Just catching up and must congratulate you on the final summary for ST. Fascinating summary of what might have been and how the players react.

Thank you very much, Steve

Possibly I'm biased but I would have considered the Doctor firmly established as a classic by 72-73. [Mind you I had been watching it for about 6 years by then.]

Believe me, members of the two respective fandoms often quarrel over that very subject ITTL

And, to prevent Brainbin from getting too mad in case I *did* guess right, I will not say who I thought of. And it might help Brainbin by keeping people from guessing who *he* has picked.

Just to let all of you know, he submitted his guess to me privately, and I confirmed and/or denied its accuracy for posterity. And no, I will not tell you whom he guessed

You're such a tease.

To be fair, any hinting would have given the game away.

 

[joea64]

Coming in (as usual) a few days late, but one hopes, not a dollar short. I do have a comment to make on Jackie Chan's comparatively disappointing track record in Hollywood. Brainbin provisionally attributes it to Hollywood's tighter safety standards, which is likely true enough, but I'd add - and this doesn't contradict what he says - that by the time Jackie arrived in Hollywood, he had been REALLY banged up as a result of all the crazy dangerous awesome stunts he'd done in his glory days. If memory serves, he had sustained such a severe head (or spine) injury on one movie shoot - Supercop? Armour of God? I don't remember - that his doctors had explicitly forbidden him ever to undertake any stunt of the same nature that caused him to get hurt that way, ever again. So it was the case that by the time Jackie "hit the big time", at least by Hollywood's way of thinking, he just couldn't do some of the things that had made him famous worldwide anymore. That, and the fact that a lot of the Hollywood scripts he got were just plain crappy.

 

[joea64]

Shatner really was hated. I don't think that Brainbin has done anything to change this.

The thing here is that, OTL, Shatner has been self-aware and intellectually honest/mature enough to recognize and admit this (starting with Star Trek Memories) and has been mature enough in later years to be unafraid to spoof himself. I wonder if the same thing will hold true TTL.

EDIT: I see Brainbin has already brought that very point up.

 

[joea64]

Very unlikely. As in, it's not going to happen. He's only on city council right now, and I don't think he's capable of a Theodore Roosevelt-style ascent. Otherwise, he probably would have run for elected office more than just the one time IOTL. He has also served on a number of committees and advisory panels, which tells me that he's definitely more of a legislative mind than an executive one.

Brainbin, I'd venture, if you're right about Takei's political mindset, that he may eventually decide to run for the California state legislature or even Congress ITTL.

Somewhat tangentially, and I don't expect you to get into detail on this given your rightful aversion to making this a politics-heavy TL , I just had the thought, while contemplating Takei's future political career, that the pre-1990's tradition of consensus and civility in Washington might actually survive to the present day (i.e., TTL 2012) here. This all goes back to the quagmire that ended early. I've sometimes thought that all the political nastiness we see OTL is actually the last act of a half-century-long struggle between the opposing sides in said quagmire. If that wrapped up early, leaving a much less divisive legacy, and if the political culture of TTL's 1970 U.S. is thereby more hospitable to consensus - something that we've already seen hints of in your account of Those Were The Days - I suspect that, among other things, the so-called "New Right" and its successors, right down to the "Tea Party", might well never develop at all, or if they do, in very different forms. The center-right of the Republican Party - the Rockefeller wing - is, if the trends you appear to be establishing continue to hold true, going to be a continuing viable entity in the TTL 2000's and 2010's. At least, that's how I look at it.

EDIT: And back to George; if he does become a "Scoop Jackson" Democrat, and does end up going into Congress, I can envision him even becoming one of the leaders of the Jackson wing of the party in Congress after Jackson himself departs the scene.

 

[Glen]

....
Glad to hear that even you recognize that episode's greatness Since the Star Trek discussion is mostly over now, we can find new ways of keeping it alive. Would everyone like to list their Top 10 OTL episodes? I'll start with mine. In approximate order of preference:

• "The Doomsday Machine"
• "Mirror, Mirror"
• "The Trouble With Tribbles"
• "The City on the Edge of Forever"
• "Journey To Babel"
• "Balance of Terror"
• "The Devil in the Dark"
• "Amok Time"
• "The Immunity Syndrome"
• "The Corbomite Maneuver"

Hon. Mentions: "The Man Trap", "The Naked Time", "The Squire of Gothos", "A Piece of the Action", "The Tholian Web".

I think you can tell, looking at that list, what my "type" of episode is
.....

Okay, I took a stab at this. Note that this is my 'gut-check' top 20 (when I was going through, I found enough that were contenders to warrant posting the 20 - and yes, I'm cheating by counting I & II of the Menagerie as one episode). Note that some of the ones that I post higher may not be because they are technically better, just hit me more, and on a given day some of these positions might change, even radically, depending on my mood. And of course, they might change if instead I were to take a strictly critical view as to quality - sometimes a really good bit can overcome a lot of flaws for likeability, after all.

Glen's Top Twenty Star Trek Episodes (at least today):

1. The City on the Edge of Forever
2. Mirror, Mirror
3. Amok Time
4. Space Seed
5. Balance of Terror
6. The Trouble with Tribbles
7. The Enterprise Incident
8. Wolf in the Fold
9. The Menagerie (I & II)
10. Journey to Babel
11. A Taste of Armageddon
12. Requiem for Methuselah
13. Errand of Mercy
14. Patterns of Force
15. Arena
16. The Omega Glory
17. Return to Tomorrow
18. The Squire of Gothos
19. The Savage Curtain
20. The Devil in the Dark

So Brainbin and I only share 60% concordance between our top 10, and if I throw in his honorable mentions our lists only have 7 episodes shared in our top 15 and 8 shared episodes total.

 

[phx1138]

It's because I said the "R"-word. Senate is feasible - California elected a Japanese-American Senator (foreign-born, to boot; though from Canada, not Japan) in 1976 IOTL - but President is not. That said, I think of all the minorities of TTL, Asian-Americans (still known mostly as "Orientals" in this era) are doing the best, relative to OTL. (That said, that's a very difficult metric to quantify.)

That's pretty much in line with my feeling, too, tho I'd go broader: any non-white at that time OTL would've been pretty ASB; even TTL it's a real longshot.

Perhaps - if he finds himself working primarily in television or the movies. If he's mostly on the stage, then why bother?

True. And IDK if he's doing stage; I seem to recall some TV roles at that time OTL. Enough to jump-start a production company, IDK. Presuming he wants one yet...& it might take regular series work to reveal how useful that could be.

He'll certainly promote them more aggressively than Blish. Probably bring loads of them with him to conventions.

I wouldn't be surprised. (Not like he'd be the only one.)

He'll start writing his own works in the mid-1970s, once he's done chronicling the production run of the show, and addressing the most grievous missteps (by his estimation) in the various adaptations.

So I await a filmed adaptation. (A little Desilu payback? In lieu of salary?)

I am in complete agreement with you there. And what an excellent analogy!

TY.

Well, I do. They're completely incongruous with the rest of the footage now. Not to mention that they're very shoddily done.

I've only seen a couple of the remastered shows, & the added ship shots throw me off a bit. (They're nice, but really just padding.) These shows, in the original, were paced & cut together really well (except "Tribbles", which, based on what David says in the book, could use a comprehensive re-edit from original footage, if it exists).

I've seen fans do better re-masterings. This fellow here, for example.

That looks realy good. (How long before the DCMA makes it illegal?)

Indeed. And, of course, they have forced us to watch these patchwork monstrosities in syndication.

No, but as a man you greatly admire once said: "History is replete with turning points." That's just as true in the entertainment industry as it is anywhere else. A surprisingly large amount of iconic pop culture moments were created when somebody took a chance, or tried to shake up the existing status quo. Things would be very different if everyone had followed the path of least resistance.

Oh, I agree entirely. I just mean, butterflies are often used as an excuse to create convenient "morphic twins". I suspect people's lives tend to not change direction as readily as outsiders think, even in entertainment: right place, right time, & suits not trying to screw you.

Wins an Oscar, my friend.

No slight intended, I assure you, my friend. I simply couldn't recall if he did.

I understand that's a reference to his character's ultimate fate, but it's still rather morbid, considering his untimely death IOTL.

Beyond the movie, I know nothing about him, so any offence given is entirely unintentional.

It's very time-consuming, converting my rough notes into a legible update. Not to mention that I would have to start in 1969-70 and work my way forward to catch up. Maybe once I'm done writing the timeline, and am in the process of making my revisions.

No, as said, "if you feel like". In future, perhaps? (Or not.) Past, when you're done, perhaps. (Or not.) I by no means ask for additional work which will interfere with the ongoing.

Oh, go on

I could've said it wouldn't get better, but that would've been mean.

The writers and producers of "Mork & Mindy" found a very effective way around it IOTL - they would just insert "Robin can go off here" into all the scripts. (Needless to say, this became a recurring theme in his comedic career.)

Huh. An "insert commercial here"? That's got to make continuity a real adventure.

I again refer you to Tom Hanks Syndrome. It's more unlikely that he wouldn't eventually make the crossover.

Either way, I will enjoy seeing how you handle it. (Also, for the record, I liked Hanks better in "Pvt Ryan" & "Perdition" than anything else he's done; IMO, if he made no other film than "Perdition", he'd have a career.)

Glad to hear that even you recognize that episode's greatness

*ahem* It would be near (or at) the bottom. Because TBH I'm not much one for Top 10s.

• "Tribbles" (A very different look at the gang, & one of only 2 where it actually makes sense for the Big 3 to be off-ship.)
• "Amok Time" (except the ending... The look inside Spock's background, & Vulcan, is a treat. So is Arlene Martel.)
• "Journey To Babel" (Mark Lenard makes it work.)
• "Mirror, Mirror" (The "Dark Enterprise" was good, but the method was a laugh...)
• "The Devil in the Dark" (A really nice switch on the "thing from outer space".)
• "The Enterprise Incident" (I liked the treatment of the Romulans, & the Romulan commander, & a "Spock romance" for a change.)
• "Doomsday Machine" (Allegory was a bit strong, & Decker a bit over the top, but for a change, it's not Scotty patching Enterprise up with spit & chewing gum just in time...)
• "City" (Sorry, but that convenient blind walk in front of the truck was lame.)
• "A Piece of the Action" (A nice look at the reasons why the Prime Directive was a good idea. Too bad they didn't do it more often, like in "Lou Grant". {I bet nobody gets that one.} I also found the humor too heavy-handed.)
• "The Conscience of the King" (SF & mystery-suspense, nicely combined.)

Honorable mention: "Space Seed", on the strength of Montalban's Khan alone.

(Confession: I looked at the WP episode list as a refresher...) I'll also say I'm surprised there were 10; only half of them came immediately to mind. And I'm very surprised any were 3d season; the underlying premises of some of those were pretty good (including, frex, "For the World is Hollow"), but the execution sucked.

Well, don't forget exactly which network "The Final Frontier" is airing on. It's definitely not coming on strong out of the gate.

Noted.

I know he went into educating in his later career (which is how I first heard of him, in fact), just as Sagan started writing science-fiction. But I won't guarantee anything. Sagan certainly won't need him, and depending on where "The Final Frontier" is filmed, Doohan will have engineers or physicists from either the University of Toronto or McGill University at his disposal.

I'm thinking in particular of his essays on science published as books (a couple of which I've bought) more than anything. (I do know he was qualified as a biochem prof {at a Boston U, IIRC}, & nearly lost tenure because he wasn't publishing enough.)

I don't mean to say Carl needed him, more they'd both be doing the same kind of thing: making science more accessible to a broader audience.

Indeed she is. (Though that's a good deal less true ITTL.) I'll to keep your suggestion in mind.

TY again.

I can guarantee that she'll be an intriguing one

Prosit. And you have my attention, now.

A very astute observation - I was wondering when somebody would get to Mame. By all accounts, That Wacky Redhead was the worst thing about it, and her lack of involvement ITTL will be significant.

Having seen bits of the film, I wonder if that opinion doesn't depend some on if the viewer has seen (or is aware of) the play or Broadway show. (I didn't like it for entirely other reasons.)

Musicals are not yet the box-office poison that they would be in, say, the 1980s and 1990s IOTL.

The recognition they cost way more than they're generally worth shouldn't be affected much TTL. Or does that apply only to original musicals, where the cost of the music isn't (mostly) already paid for?

I see no reason to cast anyone other than Lansbury as the lead (That Wacky Redhead lobbied hard for the part IOTL, which she won't be doing here), and since she's a better actress and singer, I see no reason why that won't be a huge boon for the film.

Agreed on all counts. That said (& if this was addressed & I've forgotten, apologies), does Lucy never work as an actress again? I daresay there are roles she might be right for (or interested in), & without the bad experience of "Mame"...

To be fair, any hinting would have given the game away.

I know. He could simply have kept it to himself. Even that hint was like somebody saying, "I'm not telling, don't ask", which is just begging somebody to do just that.

the pre-1990's tradition of consensus and civility in Washington might actually survive to the present day (i.e., TTL 2012) here. This all goes back to the quagmire that ended early. I've sometimes thought that all the political nastiness we see OTL is actually the last act of a half-century-long struggle between the opposing sides in said quagmire. If that wrapped up early, leaving a much less divisive legacy, and if the political culture of TTL's 1970 U.S. is thereby more hospitable to consensus - something that we've already seen hints of in your account of Those Were The Days - I suspect that, among other things, the so-called "New Right" and its successors, right down to the "Tea Party", might well never develop at all, or if they do, in very different forms. The center-right of the Republican Party - the Rockefeller wing - is, if the trends you appear to be establishing continue to hold true, going to be a continuing viable entity in the TTL 2000's and 2010's.

I'd be interested knowing why you think so. I'm not seeing the chain of reasoning. (Perhaps for my ignorance of the U.S. political system.)

(Aside to Brainbin: no comment from you on this required. Unless you want.)

 

[Glen]

For phx - the absence of a Nixon presidency is going to have huge ramifications on political culture in America.

 

[Glen]

phx and I also have 60% concordance in top ten.

 

[Glen]

phx and I also have 60% concordance in top ten.

And he has 70% with Brainbin.