That Wacky Redhead

[phx1138]

Oliver Tobias? The same Oliver Tobias who was Joan Collins' boy toy in "The Stud"?

The very one.

If Tobias had gotten the nod, Joanie would have to have gone looking for some other hunk for that fine example of softcore.

Does make you wonder who. Too early for Swayze's career to hit bottom? Michael Pare? Michael Beck? (Both from "The Warriors". They weren't actually terrible in the cop show they did.)

And speaking of Collins, will her career hit its OTL nadir in the 70's, or will something come along for her during the decade?

I personally would hate to see her softcore butterflied. I nominate Pia as Xenia Onatopp (after "Butterfly", tho, just for the sheer irony of it It was her debut, so butterflying it would be cruel.).

Nostalgic attachments are one thing but Moore at #2? When you've got Brosnan at #4 for being wooden? I fear for your sanity.

Indeed. I won't say Moore is the worst actor I've ever seen, but by contrast, Brosnan is Olivier.

I agree with PHX . Brosnan had a nice edge of cold ruthless bastard to him that I like in my Bonds.

Thank you. Something else I like about Craig: he's not so damn pretty. (In fact, when I first saw he was cast, I couldn't believe they cast somebody so ugly. {No, he's not Jimmy Nail, but still...})

Now the obvious question on nobodys' lips is "What are your Top 5 Muppets?"

For the record mine are;
#1 Rolf
#2 Gonzo
#3 Animal
#4 Statdler & Waldorf (BOGOF!)
#5 Beaker

#1 Animal
#3 Kermit
#5 Statdler & Waldorf
(There aren't any others I care about.)

 

[Orville_third]

Would the Moody Blues be classified as Progressive Rock? (They certainly fit the themes...) How are they doing?

 

[Brainbin]

Always nice to see more comments! So much has been said, and I have so much to say in response!

I'm going to be interested to see how the trajectory of Fleetwood Mac (and of the Seventies "California Sound" pop-rock genre) is changed, or not changed, by all the developments so far.

Well, there is a definite dichotomy emerging here. There may be room for MOR to emerge and become wildly successful, as it did IOTL.

The big question is, will the Mac even relocate to the U.S. as they did in '73 (becoming mainstays of the college circuit)? Will the infamous "Fake Fleetwood Mac" incident happen? Will Mick Fleetwood wander into Richard Dashut's studio looking for a good place to record the group's next album?
Will Buckingham Nicks do better than OTL? (OTL, the duo was huge in exactly one rather unexpected place - Birmingham, Alabama.)

All excellent questions, and thank you for providing the supplementary information necessary for me to answer them. I shall have to ruminate on the matter for some time before I can make a decision. But I'll be thinking about it as we move forward!

If you're talking about Disco, you've simply made it more millitantly anti-Disco, like Punk and Heavy Metal fandoms were. That said, this will delay the fragmentation of rap somewhat.

The tremendous backlash against disco was in large part due to its ubiquity, and popularity among the unwashed masses (hard as it may be to believe today, disco was relatively obscure until the mid-1970s, and did not become the biggest genre in music until after Saturday Night Fever in 1977). There's no guarantee that either of those things will happen ITTL. Indeed, disco may well survive into the 1980s, without everyone hurriedly re-labeling the various post-disco genres (club, house, electro, techno, etc.) to avoid the continued backlash.

It didn't need bigger budget IMO.

Perhaps not, but I'm sure they'll find places to spend the extra money.

Anything Corman directed doesn't deserve to be called SF, IMO: it's all "sci-fi".

You may notice that I always use the full terms in my updates proper, excluding footnotes. I like to be consistent.

Tho "$6 Million Man" & "Bionic Woman" had respectable runs.

True, but I consider those more-or-less straight action-adventure series. Like The Incredible Hulk or Wonder Woman.

Have you noticed the trend? The budgets get bigger & bigger, & the profit margin gets less & less. By "Casino Royale" (Craig), they're barely breaking even.

That's hardly unique to the James Bond films. It's become increasingly true since the beginning of the Blockbuster Age. Why do you think that the latest 3-D fad is enduring for so long? A lot of movies would lose money without it. And I mean actually lose money, and not just in Hollywood Accounting terms. (I still cannot believe that a certain sequel to a certain reboot is going to be in 3-D.)

That puts Oliver Tobias, Sam Neill, or Lewis Collins up for it [...] If you're up for a wild choice, what about Anthony Head (better known for his coffee commercials, & "Buffy")? Or Michael Praed ("Robin of Sherwood")? Or an Aussie, Anthony Hawkins (from "Special Squad")?

Hold your horses! You have no idea how long Billington is going to last in the role. Who knows how quickly his seven films will be produced, or if he leaves (or is fired) before he reaches that threshold, or if his contract is extended beyond it? (Remember, only 43 in 1985, younger than Roger Moore when he started IOTL.) Or whether any of the actors you've mentioned will be anywhere near in the position to become the next James Bond? Needless to say, I think that you're jumping the gun, just a little bit

I presume you know Damon Knight had the best definition: "It's whatever I'm holding when I'm talking about it."

I still think that Justice Potter Stewart put it best: "I know it when I see it."

Very smart use of music, with the trademark line & theme only at the end.)

Because it's not like the twenty previous films had seen fit to put them at the beginning, and that putting them at the end would break an important - nay, iconic - precedent for absolutely no good reason

Of course, the casting choices have made a difference. If it'd been Brosnan instead of Dalton in sequence, I'd still pick Brosnan.

Though if Brosnan were cast first, Dalton would almost certainly never play Bond anyway, rendering the point moot

One suggestion: butterfly the "Dirty Harry" sequels, by having the black "sequel" made.

I shall have to investigate that possibility - I definitely find it a rather intriguing one.

IMO, "Dirty Harry" should never have had any sequels.

Then again, the rebuttal witness has just five words to say on that matter...

Go ahead. Make my day.

(And speaking of Collins, will her career hit its OTL nadir in the 70's, or will something come along for her during the decade?)

She was in her forties in the 1970s. Hollywood has never had much time for older women of middling talent. Her career revival IOTL was anomalous, so it will be rather difficult to replicate. At least she has her sister (whose writing career is proceeding apace with OTL).

You, Sir, are obviously deranged.

I should think that would be obvious by now, good sir

Nostalgic attachments are one thing but Moore at #2? When you've got Brosnan at #4 for being wooden? I fear for your sanity.

Moore was deliberately playing Bond that way. You know, the stereotypical Englishman? Stiff upper lip and all that? He did it in order to differentiate himself from both the Connery interpretation of Bond, and his own, of Simon Templar. Also, like I said, he had an easy charm which all other Bonds (save Connery, of course) lacked. My objections to him, looking back, are his age, and the fact that he held on to the role for too long. If he had left after For Your Eyes Only, as was the original plan, I think that a lot of people would have a much higher opinion of him. (For one thing, he would have made more good Bond films than bad ones.)

Dalton just never convinced me. I suppose he was to me as Craig is to you.

Fair enough, though it honestly baffles me as to how people could look at the two of them, and then say that Craig is more like James Bond. I can't think of that being the case on any conceivable metric. But to each his own, of course

Wooden? Have you seen The Matador?

Have you seen Mamma Mia?

I think your being a tad unfair to poor old George. Whatever the faults of OHMSS, Lazonby was not 'single-handedly' responsible for them.

Perhaps you're right. But he does make a very effective scapegoat, to be fair.

That's an interesting (and convincing) analysis.

Thank you very much

I nearly said "Intriguing" again but restrained myself. Oh, wait...Damn.

Now the obvious question on nobodys' lips is "What are your Top 5 Muppets?"

What the heck is wrong with you?!

Enquiring minds await with bated breath.

#1 - Statler & Waldorf
#3 - Miss Piggy (because if there is a tie for one rank, the next rank does not exist, you guys. Standard rule of ranking.)
#4 - The Swedish Chef
#5 - Beaker

I nominate Pia as Xenia Onatopp (after "Butterfly", tho, just for the sheer irony of it It was her debut, so butterflying it would be cruel.).

All right now, seriously. You're extending your first-name-basis courtesy to Pia freaking Zadora?! I have no words

Indeed.

You know, a character much closer to this timeline uses that word at least as often

I won't say Moore is the worst actor I've ever seen, but by contrast, Brosnan is Olivier.

See my rationale above. Including Mamma Mia. Or better yet, just watch this video. (They're better than he is.)

I tend to disparage that which I find especially overrated (and Brosnan definitely fits that bill). On the same token, I vociferously defend that which I find under-appreciated (such as the original incarnation of a certain long-running science-fiction franchise, relative to its spinoffs). The thing about Star Trek is that people love that show, warts-and-all. We all know its flaws, and we celebrate them, and I like that. Certain other shows are venerated a little too blindly, I think. Certain creators, too. And, of course, certain actors. I'll leave it at that. But as a result, I tend to strongly dislike them. It's a two-step process known as Hype Aversion and Hype Backlash.

(All right, Falkenburg, there's your hat trick.)

Would the Moody Blues be classified as Progressive Rock? (They certainly fit the themes...) How are they doing?

Good question. I shall have to work them in to a future update.

"More To Come" tonight! How fitting, I'm promoting a trailer for my future updates. I'm just like a movie studio or a game developer!

 

[The Professor]

Well, the last update before this one could be described as a buffet, yet it went without comment from you, Professor

Hmm, I thought I had replied with a nomnom *sigh*

And my tuppence:

#1 - Statler & Waldorf
#3 - Gonzo
#4 - Beaker
#5 - Pedro

 

[phx1138]

the rebuttal witness has just five words to say on that matter...

Go ahead. Make my day.

Good script, good portrayal, no argument. It works just as well if he's Wes Block. The name doesn't matter there. The character of Harry in the original should be older, more cynical, & shouldn't have come back. Not to say the *sequels shouldn't be made. And by the time you get your day made, you're seeing the Harry Callahan I'd have wanted in the original: Clint, 20yr later. Would you have made "Rooster Cogburn" if John Wayne was 20yr younger? I wouldn't.

I still think that Justice Potter Stewart put it best: "I know it when I see it."

He's not wrong, but it's not as funny.

disco was relatively obscure until the mid-1970s, and did not become the biggest genre in music until after Saturday Night Fever in 1977.

Huh. Makes you wonder if R&R would've been so big without "Blackboard Jungle", doesn't it? How many careers got made on a movie song? (Then again, look at the 1941 winner: it beat 3 songs that are better known...)

Perhaps not, but I'm sure they'll find places to spend the extra money.

I don't doubt it.

You may notice that I always use the full terms in my updates proper, excluding footnotes. I like to be consistent.

I did. Just sayin'.

I consider those more-or-less straight action-adventure series. Like The Incredible Hulk or Wonder Woman.

True. I suspect the producers, & the audience, did, too.

That's hardly unique to the James Bond films. It's become increasingly true since the beginning of the Blockbuster Age. Why do you think that the latest 3-D fad is enduring for so long? A lot of movies would lose money without it. And I mean actually lose money, and not just in Hollywood Accounting terms.

No, not a surprise.

(I still cannot believe that a certain sequel to a certain reboot is going to be in 3-D.)

Hold your horses! You have no idea how long Billington is going to last in the role. Who knows how quickly his seven films will be produced, or if he leaves (or is fired) before he reaches that threshold, or if his contract is extended beyond it? (Remember, only 43 in 1985, younger than Roger Moore when he started IOTL.) Or whether any of the actors you've mentioned will be anywhere near in the position to become the next James Bond? Needless to say, I think that you're jumping the gun, just a little bit

Nope, just offering some suggestions. If he gets hit by a bus during filming, say, *"Live & Let Die", naturally, somebody else will get it. I was presuming he goes 7, & they don't shoot any faster. (If they decide to let Clint "Was in focus?" Eastwood direct, it'll go faster.)

Because it's not like the twenty previous films had seen fit to put them at the beginning, and that putting them at the end would break an important - nay, iconic - precedent for absolutely no good reason

No, because it's an origin story. He's not Bond til the end, so the theme isn't his yet.

Though if Brosnan were cast first, Dalton would almost certainly never play Bond anyway, rendering the point moot

Semantic nonsese.

I shall have to investigate that possibility - I definitely find it a rather intriguing one.

Salud. I was fascinated by the prospect, & I'd love to know why it wasn't made. (IIRC, the intended star turned it down. Of course, Sinatra & IIRC John Wayne turned down the original, too...)

She was in her forties in the 1970s. Hollywood has never had much time for older women of middling talent. Her career revival IOTL was anomalous, so it will be rather difficult to replicate. At least she has her sister (whose writing career is proceeding apace with OTL).

Oh, well. I'm not that disappointed. It means she won't be in "Dynasty" (presuming "Dallas" happens).

Have you seen Mamma Mia?

No.

All right now, seriously. You're extending your first-name-basis courtesy to Pia freaking Zadora?! I have no words

Have you seen "Butterfly"? (No, you missed almost nothing but Pia nude.) She is adorable. Can't act her way out of a paper bag, but who cares? I'm on a first-name basis with anybody who makes so strong an impression. (The list isn't long: maybe 20 names, plus a couple that would be on it but they're named the same, so Elisabeth Röhm & Elizabeth Berkley.)

You know, a character much closer to this timeline uses that word at least as often

You wouldn't need a link for that.

I tend to disparage that which I find especially overrated (and Brosnan definitely fits that bill). On the same token, I vociferously defend that which I find under-appreciated (such as the original incarnation of a certain long-running science-fiction franchise, relative to its spinoffs).

Me, too. I happen to disagree on Brosnan. I also know we aren't going to agree on it, so consider the argument closed.

 

[Falkenburg]

Have you seen Mamma Mia?

Thankfully not (yet). A few close shaves but the dog always needs walking.

#1 - Statler & Waldorf
#3 - Miss Piggy (because if there is a tie for one rank, the next rank does not exist, you guys. Standard rule of ranking.)
#4 - The Swedish Chef
#5 - Beaker

My only quibble with your choices would be that I consider S&W so intrinsically linked that they have to be considered as a single entity.

It would be different if, say, I had Rolf & Gonzo as 'Joint First'. Obviously then my next pick would be 'Third'.

(All right, Falkenburg, there's your hat trick.)

I would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for that pesky Brainbin!

"More To Come" tonight! How fitting, I'm promoting a trailer for my future updates. I'm just like a movie studio or a game developer!

Does that mean we can expect the next Update to be unceremoniously delayed for no discernible reason?

Falkenburg

 

[joea64]

Always nice to see more comments! So much has been said, and I have so much to say in response!

Well, there is a definite dichotomy emerging here. There may be room for MOR to emerge and become wildly successful, as it did IOTL.

All excellent questions, and thank you for providing the supplementary information necessary for me to answer them. I shall have to ruminate on the matter for some time before I can make a decision. But I'll be thinking about it as we move forward!

To aid you some more in your research, I found this link:

http://fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/onetogether/index.html

It's a year-by-year history of the band through 1983. One thing you'll want to look at, if you're considering MOR, is that in the Buckingham/Nicks years, Lindsey Buckingham was always the most experimental songwriter in the group. Tusk is somewhat analogous to the Beatles' White Album in that Buckingham experimented with a wide variety of musical styles (and recording methods; he notoriously laid down tracks for a couple of songs in his own bathroom because he liked the acoustics there). Tusk met with a general WTF reaction at the time from critics (and a lot of fans) who were expecting a reprise of Rumours, but (yes, this is a TV Tropes reference incoming - get your drinks ready!) has long since been Vindicated By History and is now considered by many folks to be the artistic peak of that period of the band's history. (And speaking of TV Tropes, if you don't want to spend a lot of time running down the ins and outs, that site's entry on the Mac has a pretty good down-and-dirty-and-quick summing-up. Note: the section on 1971-1974 is called "The Dork Age", from which we may assume that the writer was not a fan of Welch/Kirwan/Walker/Weston.)

 

[joea64]

(phx1138 is reacting to the news that the sequel of a reboot to a series everyone reading this thread OUGHT to be familiar with, and if you're not, what are you doing here anyway?)

I assure you that brainbin is telling the truth. I found it out the other day myself while checking the latest news on the reboot - the first on-set pictures are already circulating - and I blinked. Hard. I'm wondering how long it's going to be before I'm going to be required to get 3-D viewing equipment for my new desktop that I had custom-built just last month.

 

[Falkenburg]

Well, I know where we'll be on September 20, 1986, I can tell you that much

It took me a while to figure that out.

If it is what I think, I hope you make a better fist of it than was achieved OTL.
From what I have read it was very poorly received. Can't see you letting that happen ITTL.

Falkenburg

 

[Brainbin]

More To Come... Right After These Messages

The "present date" is January 20, 1973 (a Saturday). In Washington, D.C., President Hubert H. Humphrey is delivering his second inaugural address, having narrowly won his second term of office the preceding November. The next few years will be very challenging ones for the Happy Warrior, especially since his party's hold on Congress has become increasingly precarious. There won't be another election for two more years; in the meantime, he had best hope that he will only see smooth sailing through clear waters.

But in Hollywood, where the action is, the industry is continuing to experience dramatic changes. It remains difficult to say whether television or motion pictures have seen more transition since the late 1960s; though in both cases, many procedures and operations of the business have endured, basically untouched, as if it were still the 1950s. And in many ways, this steadfastness will prove invaluable in the years ahead. And for the time being, there's also an increased flexibility and willingness to face new, unforeseen obstacles.

And then, in Culver City, there are our two studios, Desilu and Paramount, both of whom are unveiling bold new programming, or at the very least, trying to do so. They have to deal with their share of failures along with their successes, but their objective - to continue to provide audiences with quality entertainment - will see them continue to try and push the envelope.

So, what can we expect next, and all on account of that wacky redhead?

We'll be taking our usual general overview of the next production and broadcast season: 1972-73.

There will be another production appendix, this time detailing the aftermath and continuing legacy of Star Trek.

We'll have a look at a heretofore-ignored aspect of the television industry: what is being broadcast during the daytime hours.

Our exploration of pop culture will continue with a look at that which finally replaces Moonshot Lunacy in the popular imagination.

And speaking of Moonshot Lunacy, we'll finally take an in-depth look at the goings-on in the Space Program...

All this and more, coming up on... That Wacky Redhead!

---

Directory for That Wacky Redhead

• That Wacky Redhead
• This Season is the First Season of the Rest of Your Career (1966-67)
• Beyond the Rim of the Star-light, or: Star Trek: The Early Years (1964-67)
• We Hope You Enjoy the Show (1967-68)
• Appendix A, Part I: Star Trek, Season 2 (1967-68)
• Where No Man Has Gone Before (1968-69)
• Appendix B, Part I: Current Events (US Presidential Election, 1968)
• The Rating Game (1968-69)
• Appendix A, Part II: Star Trek, Season 3 (1968-69)
• More To Come... Right After These Messages (July 24, 1969)
• Let The Sunshine In (1969-70)
• Appendix B, Part II: Moonlight Madness
• Appendix A, Part III: Star Trek, Season 4 (1969-70)
• A Night At The Movies
• The Many Faces Of Doctor Who
• More To Come... Right After These Messages (April 15, 1971)
• The End of an Era (1970-71)
• Appendix A, Part IV: Star Trek, Season 5 (1970-71)
• Doctor Who and the Enterprise (1970-71)
• Science Fiction/Double Feature
• Meet The Bunkers
• The Final Curtain for Classic TV
• More To Come... Right After These Messages (May 19, 1972)
• The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same (1971-72)
• Appendix A, Part V: Star Trek Miscellany
• Doctor Who and the Americans
• The Wide World of Sports
• Appendix B, Part III: Canadian Federal Election, 1972
• The Archie Bunker Vote (US Elections, 1972)
• The Inexorable March of Progress(ive Rock)
• More To Come... Right After These Messages (January 20, 1973)

Acknowledgements

I would like to give special thanks to the following consultants, who have provided me with valuable assistance in the continuing development of this timeline: Chipperback, e of pi, truth is life, vultan, and Electric Monk.

And, of course, thanks to all of you for your praise, your criticism, your many and varied opinions, and your continued readership!

 

[joea64]

I implore you, Brainbin: find some way to avert the worst effects of the upcoming blockbuster era upon Hollywood. Peruse James Robert Parish's book Fiasco, among others, if you require more details (most of the mega-flops discussed in the book occur in the post-Cleopatra era, especially in the 1970's through the early 2000's). I blame the obsession with the Next Mega Blockbuster for the preponderance of what is wrong with Hollywood today and if you find some way to prevent this from happening you will win my everlasting allegiance and subscription to every single timeline you ever create henceforth.

EDIT: And see this article from Yahoo! News I just noticed, which points up the problem as of OTL 2012:

http://news.yahoo.com/disney-space-movie-tests-big-budget-film-strategy-205157027.html

(In particular, I urgently recommend that somebody kidnap Michael Cimino and sequester him in an undisclosed location before he inflicts Heaven's Gate upon an unsuspecting and innocent world. )

 

[Falkenburg]

(In particular, I urgently recommend that somebody kidnap Michael Cimino and sequester him in an undisclosed location before he inflicts Heaven's Gate upon an unsuspecting and innocent world. )

That's actually one of the more easily do-able things ITTL.

With a less protracted and socially divisive <VERBOTEN> the prospects for a film like The Deer Hunter are correspondingly bleaker.

If such a film is ever made, it may not be by Cimino, who will not then be on the roll that gives him the cachet to make Heavens Gate.

Or, if the film is made and it's directed by Cimino, without the 'weight' of Deer Hunter he may make it in a very different way, delivering a very different product.

Or, he could be hit by a bus.

Falkenburg

 

[joea64]

Brainbin: Minor, or not-so-minor, correction to my previous post on Fleetwood Mac.

It wasn't Richard Dashut that Mick Fleetwood contacted in 1974 while looking for a studio to record FM's next album. It was Keith Olsen, who had produced Buckingham Nicks.

Yours for accuracy. (And you may thank TV Tropes for jogging my memory, while I was reading the "Record Producers" page. )

 

[Brainbin]

Hmm, I thought I had replied with a nomnom *sigh*

Quite all right, Professor - I know that you were eating with us in spirit

And by the time you get your day made, you're seeing the Harry Callahan I'd have wanted in the original: Clint, 20yr later.

12 years later, actually. He wasn't that old

Would you have made "Rooster Cogburn" if John Wayne was 20yr younger? I wouldn't.

No, but why would you make Rooster Cogburn without making True Grit first anyway?

You want semantic? How's that for semantic?

Huh. Makes you wonder if R&R would've been so big without "Blackboard Jungle", doesn't it? How many careers got made on a movie song?

That is an excellent observation. And Blackboard Jungle did it with just one song, "Rock Around the Clock" - which, granted, is one of the greatest singles ever produced - whereas Saturday Night Fever had an entire soundtrack to make an impression.

(Then again, look at the 1941 winner: it beat 3 songs that are better known...)

That is, sadly, quite common among Best Song winners. To take an example close to the readers of this thread, "Rainbow Connection" from The Muppet Movie lost to "It Goes Like It Goes" from Norma Rae. When was the last time that anybody had even heard that song?

Nope, just offering some suggestions. If he gets hit by a bus during filming, say, *"Live & Let Die", naturally, somebody else will get it. I was presuming he goes 7, & they don't shoot any faster. (If they decide to let Clint "Was in focus?" Eastwood direct, it'll go faster.)

Why did you link to David Boreanaz? As for the timetables, they'll become clear over the course of the timeline. And no, Clint Eastwood won't be going anywhere near James Bond. Though that would certainly be an interesting timeline idea for someone else.

No, because it's an origin story. He's not Bond til the end, so the theme isn't his yet.

And then they don't do it right in the next movie either. Any excuses for that one?

She is adorable. Can't act her way out of a paper bag, but who cares? I'm on a first-name basis with anybody who makes so strong an impression.

Really, if you want to see a woman who looks good naked but can't act to save her life, why not just watch pornography?

Elisabeth Röhm

Is this because she's a lesbian?

Elizabeth Berkley

A word of advice, phx - and I know this is after your time - but she is Jessie Spano and her appearance in Showgirls is best described as "Jessie gets naked". And when you think of her, your immediate thought should be her riveting expose on the effects of drug addiction.

Thankfully not (yet). A few close shaves but the dog always needs walking.

Aren't you glad you're not a cat person?

My only quibble with your choices would be that I consider S&W so intrinsically linked that they have to be considered as a single entity.

Fair enough, but people listing their Top Five (or Ten, or so on) and then having six (or more!) separate entities on their lists, using a "tie" as an excuse, has always rankled me. And this has nothing to do with you, personally - it's a scourge throughout the internet.

I would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for that pesky Brainbin!

Hey, thanks for reminding me of a show that I wanted to discuss.

Does that mean we can expect the next Update to be unceremoniously delayed for no discernible reason?

Funny you should say that - I didn't include the standard ETA because it might not be ready until next weekend, depending on how my schedule looks. But I don't give a date unless I'm reasonably sure I can keep it, Valve. (I can also count to three.)

To aid you some more in your research, I found this link:

Thank you. I know that they were huge in their day, but I've not really heard much of their music. It seems that their greatest rivals - Eagles - have had a lot more staying power in the popular imagination.

And speaking of TV Tropes, if you don't want to spend a lot of time running down the ins and outs, that site's entry on the Mac has a pretty good down-and-dirty-and-quick summing-up. Note: the section on 1971-1974 is called "The Dork Age", from which we may assume that the writer was not a fan of Welch/Kirwan/Walker/Weston.

Well then, I'll definitely be sure to start there. And I always love long entries that are primarily written by just one Troper - it really captures the singular passion that someone has for a trope, a work, or a creator.

I assure you that brainbin is telling the truth. I found it out the other day myself while checking the latest news on the reboot - the first on-set pictures are already circulating - and I blinked. Hard. I'm wondering how long it's going to be before I'm going to be required to get 3-D viewing equipment for my new desktop that I had custom-built just last month.

Indeed, it's been known for a few months now - I had hoped that the decline of the fad, already in progress, would be enough to knock some sense into people, but I should have known better than to expect anyone in Hollywood to have any common sense. As for me, I refuse to watch the movie in 3-D - big screens make me queasy enough as it is, thank you very much.

It took me a while to figure that out.

And I think I know what you're thinking, if you looked up that date and then searched for relevant OTL events, especially those connected to That Wacky Redhead. You've now discovered why I chose that particular date, though what will happen is actually not a surprise at all. Why don't you take a look at the very first post to this thread, and then read the date?

I implore you, Brainbin: find some way to avert the worst effects of the upcoming blockbuster era upon Hollywood.

That is going to be very difficult, and I can't promise anything, but I always did love a good challenge

I blame the obsession with the Next Mega Blockbuster for the preponderance of what is wrong with Hollywood today and if you find some way to prevent this from happening you will win my everlasting allegiance and subscription to every single timeline you ever create henceforth.

I completely agree with you, but I'm not sure about accepting bribes. Besides, I have no idea whether I'll even create another timeline!

With a less protracted and socially divisive <VERBOTEN> the prospects for a film like The Deer Hunter are correspondingly bleaker.

An astute observation, and a very accurate one.

Yours for accuracy. (And you may thank TV Tropes for jogging my memory, while I was reading the "Record Producers" page. )

Great site, isn't it? In many ways it's a lot like Wikipedia, back when Wikipedia was fun.

 

[phx1138]

12 years later, actually. He wasn't that old

I didn't look it up, first.

No, but why would you make Rooster Cogburn without making True Grit first anyway?

I wouldn't. Not the point. (I didn't like the annoying brat in "True Grit". I wasn't impressed with the girl, either.) At issue for me was (is), would you have done it if he was a lot younger? Or Kate Hepburn, either. I wouldn't have. (Which is a bit unfortunate, actually, 'cause I liked it a lot.)

That is an excellent observation. And Blackboard Jungle did it with just one song, "Rock Around the Clock" - which, granted, is one of the greatest singles ever produced - whereas Saturday Night Fever had an entire soundtrack to make an impression.

TYVM.

That is, sadly, quite common among Best Song winners. To take an example close to the readers of this thread, "Rainbow Connection" from The Muppet Movie lost to "It Goes Like It Goes" from Norma Rae. When was the last time that anybody had even heard that song?

Huh. So the win helps the movie, but not the song...

Why did you link to David Boreanaz?

I knew somebody would ask that. It's something he said about the conclusion of "Angel": his ideal ending would be Angel becomes human & is hit buy a bus. (Somebody didn't want to do "Angel: The Movie", I guess.)

Clint Eastwood won't be going anywhere near James Bond.

I had no expectation of it. It's just the first way to speed things up that came to me.

Though that would certainly be an interesting timeline idea for someone else.

TY. (BTW, salud.)

And then they don't do it right in the next movie either. Any excuses for that one?

Beyond the usual "producers are idiots"?

Really, if you want to see a woman who looks good naked but can't act to save her life, why not just watch pornography?

What makes you think I don't?

Is this because she's a lesbian?

I can admire anyhow. And do. She & Portia aren't less gorgeous for being off the market, any more than Denise or Tyra for being so far out of my league they could be on Mars.

your immediate thought should be her riveting expose on the effects of drug addiction.

At what time did I ever indicate I thought she was even Emmy-winner material?

Fair enough, but people listing their Top Five (or Ten, or so on) and then having six (or more!) separate entities on their lists, using a "tie" as an excuse, has always rankled me. And this has nothing to do with you, personally - it's a scourge throughout the internet.

It's a fair approach: if two tie, you've got effectively only one entry. (I use David Gerrold's approach: my top choice is 3.)

That's actually one of the more easily do-able things ITTL.

With a less protracted and socially divisive <VERBOTEN> the prospects for a film like The Deer Hunter are correspondingly bleaker.

If such a film is ever made, it may not be by Cimino, who will not then be on the roll that gives him the cachet to make Heavens Gate.

Or, if the film is made and it's directed by Cimino, without the 'weight' of Deer Hunter he may make it in a very different way, delivering a very different product.

Or, he could be hit by a bus.

It seems to me, with no SEA quagmire, "Deer Hunter" never gets made. So what was Cimino considering at the time, which could get made, instead? Which means "Heaven's Gate" will at a minimum be very, very different, if it's made at all.

 

[Falkenburg]

Why don't you take a look at the very first post to this thread, and then read the date?

Nice. It's almost like there's a carefully thought out plan behind all this.

Something about woods and trees springs to mind.

Falkenburg

 

[Brainbin]

I would like to hereby announce that That Wacky Redhead now has a page on the AH.com Wiki! Please consult that page in the future for updates to the master directory; no further posts will be made on that subject within this thread (at least, not by me).

I wouldn't. Not the point. (I didn't like the annoying brat in "True Grit". I wasn't impressed with the girl, either.)

You didn't like Miri? Meh, I'm not surprised. Does anyone like Miri? Well, my mother does, actually. That is her favourite episode of Star Trek. But don't blame her; she's old enough to have been a schoolgirl during the show's first-run, and probably has fond little-girl-related memories about that episode. (Her older brother, I'm told, was quite the Yeoman Rand fanboy.)

It's something he said about the conclusion of "Angel": his ideal ending would be Angel becomes human & is hit buy a bus. (Somebody didn't want to do "Angel: The Movie", I guess.)

To be fair, the ending he actually got was close enough. (No, I've never seen it. TV Tropes tells me all I need to know.)

I can admire anyhow. And do. She & Portia aren't less gorgeous for being off the market, any more than Denise or Tyra for being so far out of my league they could be on Mars.

Finally, an off-kilter reference I have made that you don't understand! Allow me to elucidate.

"Is this because I'm a lesbian?" is a reference to an infamous scene in an episode of Law & Order, in which she plays ADA Serena Southerlyn, opposite AH.com regular Fred (Dalton) Thompson as the DA. Watch it; you'll understand.

Rohm herself, by all outward appearances, is heterosexual.

It seems to me, with no SEA quagmire, "Deer Hunter" never gets made. So what was Cimino considering at the time, which could get made, instead? Which means "Heaven's Gate" will at a minimum be very, very different, if it's made at all.

And we should bear in mind that Heaven's Gate is only the most wretchedly excessive of the many, many bloated vanity projects that collapsed under their own decadence. Even without a Heaven's Gate ITTL, something else will come along. The New Hollywood system is inherently unsustainable - and, conveniently enough, a powerful refutation to the auteur theory.

Nice. It's almost like there's a carefully thought out plan behind all this.

I put that date in as a fun little reference to OTL, and now you've got it. Mission accomplished

 

[phx1138]

You didn't like Miri? Meh, I'm not surprised. Does anyone like Miri?

I actually did like the Miri character (or didn't actively dislike her, anyhow). In "True Grit" (& evidently the intention), I wanted to smack her.

To be fair, the ending he actually got was close enough.

That was actually a fluky mistake: the network cancelled the show unexpectedly.

Finally, an off-kilter reference I have made that you don't understand!

Had to happen sooner or later.

Rohm herself, by all outward appearances, is heterosexual.

I'm so relieved. (Yeah, I had a prayer.)

The New Hollywood system is inherently unsustainable - and, conveniently enough, a powerful refutation to the auteur theory.

You don't, I take it, disagree the director should have more say than the suits. I also take it you think a budget should be a budget, & going over should require real reasons & serious consideration by the suits & the beancounters before it's OKd (rather than, frex, Ford's budget to win Le Mans: "Whatever it takes.").

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Been catching up on this, and just wanted to say -- I like it

 

[Glen]

That's actually one of the more easily do-able things ITTL.

With a less protracted and socially divisive <VERBOTEN> the prospects for a film like The Deer Hunter are correspondingly bleaker.

If such a film is ever made, it may not be by Cimino, who will not then be on the roll that gives him the cachet to make Heavens Gate.

Or, if the film is made and it's directed by Cimino, without the 'weight' of Deer Hunter he may make it in a very different way, delivering a very different product.

Or, he could be hit by a bus.

Falkenburg

Just using this quote as a jump off point.

Looking at the changes politically and culturally in this time window, I think you're still going to see Cimino having some further success, just not with anything like The Deer Hunter. Cimino had successes other than The Deer Hunter (most relevant for TTL being one of the writers on Silent Running).

However, The Deer Hunter itself is a really perturbable event and no such movie is likely to be made - now then, the original script idea of people coming to Vegas to play Russian Roulette on the other hand...

So, this got me thinking again about the short and medium term outlook for Vietnam films. Realistically, you're only going to probably be able to shave off two, three at most, years from the withdrawal of American forces entirely from Vietnam. On the otherhand it will be a very different last few years in some ways. While Vietnamization will proceed much as in OTL, it will probably be in the context of a concentrated effort in South Vietnam, without the step up in bombings in North Vietnam, without the 'secret' wars in the rest of Southeast Asia. Granted, this will likely mean an even earlier invasion of South Vietnam, perhaps a year after the last American troops pull out, as the rebuilding of an insurgent infrastructure in South Vietnam will be able to be supported better logistically. I think forced reunification between North and South Vietnam will likely occur no later than 1972 ITTL.

While Vietnam still has the same reputation and some of the same impact on the US psyche, it won't be as strong or as corrosive. Tet still happened, Mai Lai probably still happened, but you won't see Kent State, and there won't be any reason for a stronger anti-war movement with the war already winding down. Note that there will be no "Hanoi Jane" and thus Jane Fonda is actually likely to have a bigger career ITTL as her leftist activities will be seen more as 'standard Hollywood' leftism, and thus she won't alienate so many potential movie-goers for a generation or more. Actually, there is the possibility of some ATL irony here - she will get involved enough in the anti-war movement before it shuts down due to the war ending probably to meet people like Ron Kovic that she might actually become involved in advocating for better care for Vietnam Vets, but without the more incendiary statements and actions about the war itself, she may actually come to be seen positively by ALL the veteran community. Basically the war ends before she has a chance to make those very, very big mistakes of hers.

It's also likely that John Kerry never testifies before Congress about the war. He'll still go into politics and probably have some success there, but he won't be 'Swift Boated' in TTL.

However, remember that the Vietnam War was still long, and there are still the stories of Veterans that need to be told. Granted, movie makers are likely to see it as an unprofitable topic, and the left is actually less incentivized to bring it up. But eventually there needs to be some sort of acknowledgement of the war and its impact on those who fought it and those who loved them.