That Wacky Redhead
- Thread starter Brainbin
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1: How do they tell Studio Aurora and Sunrise Studio apart, especially in Italy?
2: Ruby-Spears and Freling-DePattie weren't half bad (for the time) otl. Ruby-Spears did Mighty Orbots and the 1986 Superman cartoon that replaced Superfriends for a single season, and was canned in spite of excellent ratings due to toy licensing being up in the air and the series being considered (at the time) too expensive by CBS. Freling-DePattie did The Pink Panther as a cartoon and the excellent 1980 Spider-Woman cartoon.
3: From what I can gather, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe came about when negotiations between Mattel and Hanna-Barberra broke down over the toy licenses for Thundarr The Barbarian, after the first prototypes and molds had come back. Meanwhile, DC was trying to create a comic book counter to Marvel's Conan, (which originally involved being set roughly 500 years after World War III) and by happy accident, operators from Mattel, DC, and Filmation came together at a science fiction convention, and the rest is animation, toy and comic history. This make Masters of the Universe a third hand riff on Robert E. Howard.
4: Did this cartoon follow the storyline of OTL's Conan the Adventurer, or did it follow the Lundgren movies more?
2: Ruby-Spears and Freling-DePattie weren't half bad (for the time) otl. Ruby-Spears did Mighty Orbots and the 1986 Superman cartoon that replaced Superfriends for a single season, and was canned in spite of excellent ratings due to toy licensing being up in the air and the series being considered (at the time) too expensive by CBS. Freling-DePattie did The Pink Panther as a cartoon and the excellent 1980 Spider-Woman cartoon.
3: From what I can gather, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe came about when negotiations between Mattel and Hanna-Barberra broke down over the toy licenses for Thundarr The Barbarian, after the first prototypes and molds had come back. Meanwhile, DC was trying to create a comic book counter to Marvel's Conan, (which originally involved being set roughly 500 years after World War III) and by happy accident, operators from Mattel, DC, and Filmation came together at a science fiction convention, and the rest is animation, toy and comic history. This make Masters of the Universe a third hand riff on Robert E. Howard.
4: Did this cartoon follow the storyline of OTL's Conan the Adventurer, or did it follow the Lundgren movies more?
The names are still different in Japanese (Orôra vs. Sanraizu).
Not according to Wikipedia, which credits TMS.
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Orville_third
Banned
I liked the post, for the most part.
Oz:
I did have an early Wizard of Oz tape-or comparatively early. I would make a minor correction- while Hamilton and Bolger both were the last MAJOR cast members still alive, there were still some minor cast members still around, the last one of which with a speaking part (Meinhardt Raabe, the coroner) passed away in 2010. (Were he still around, he'd have a Congressional Gold Medal for his CAP services, but that's another story.)
BTW, Disney did not just do "Return to Oz" OTL. They also had various Oz ideas over the years, from a Mickey Mouse Club special, to various records. (One of which had Ray Bolger on it!)
One cultural thing- would the depiction of Tip/Ozma have any effect on the TG community? (She might be more popular as a role model than Ariel is OTL.) Would the Moral Majority criticize the show?
One inside joke- I suggest a certain actor starting out play one of the characters in The Marvelous Land of Oz- Tom Hanks. If you've read the book, you know which character he'd play.
Would other Oz books get interest as well?
Other:
Speaking of animated series, would the "Star Wars: Droids" and "Star Wars: Ewoks" series get made as OTL? (OTL Nelvana made them.) Butterfly away "Ewoks" and you may affect the career of Paul Dini...
Hopefully John Barrymore's daughter doesn't have the problems Drew did. (OTOH, she might not do as well as Drew did...)
I hope that's not a bad omen for our Wacky Redhead in the last line.
Oz:
I did have an early Wizard of Oz tape-or comparatively early. I would make a minor correction- while Hamilton and Bolger both were the last MAJOR cast members still alive, there were still some minor cast members still around, the last one of which with a speaking part (Meinhardt Raabe, the coroner) passed away in 2010. (Were he still around, he'd have a Congressional Gold Medal for his CAP services, but that's another story.)
BTW, Disney did not just do "Return to Oz" OTL. They also had various Oz ideas over the years, from a Mickey Mouse Club special, to various records. (One of which had Ray Bolger on it!)
One cultural thing- would the depiction of Tip/Ozma have any effect on the TG community? (She might be more popular as a role model than Ariel is OTL.) Would the Moral Majority criticize the show?
One inside joke- I suggest a certain actor starting out play one of the characters in The Marvelous Land of Oz- Tom Hanks. If you've read the book, you know which character he'd play.
Would other Oz books get interest as well?
Other:
Speaking of animated series, would the "Star Wars: Droids" and "Star Wars: Ewoks" series get made as OTL? (OTL Nelvana made them.) Butterfly away "Ewoks" and you may affect the career of Paul Dini...
Hopefully John Barrymore's daughter doesn't have the problems Drew did. (OTOH, she might not do as well as Drew did...)
I hope that's not a bad omen for our Wacky Redhead in the last line.
That's the one, yes.
Hence OTL's animated Thelin being grey, which Chimes neatly explains as being mixed race with the albino Andorians from Enterprise.
Star Trek: The Anime sounds interesting. My introduction to anime was Battle of the Planets; does Gatchaman still get edited into oblivion before it can be shown in the West? (I can't remember if it's been stated whether or not Journey of the Force includes R2-D2 and C-3PO, but if not that would certainly butterfly away 7-Zark-7.)
Thande
Donor
Nice reference to Filmation's problems with colour-blind pinkness and sparsity of frames 
I still can't take Larry Niven's Kzinti seriously in print because of that. Well that and having read Terry Pratchett's affectionate parody Strata before the original Ringworld.
The main thing I usually remember from Star Trek TAS was how the characters (especially Kirk) always seemed to raise their arms up in front of their chests when moving towards the 'camera' - maybe because it blocked view of movements they'd otherwise have to animate?
Oddly enough I never regarded the Hanna-Barbera franchises as having limited animation as obvious as that though, and I was puzzled when I first saw people on the internet complaining about it - I think they were just clever with how they used what movement they had to make it look more dynamic than it was.
Now if you really want to see the strangest take on limited animation, there's Mr Benn's legs as he walks down Festive Road...
I still can't take Larry Niven's Kzinti seriously in print because of that. Well that and having read Terry Pratchett's affectionate parody Strata before the original Ringworld.The main thing I usually remember from Star Trek TAS was how the characters (especially Kirk) always seemed to raise their arms up in front of their chests when moving towards the 'camera' - maybe because it blocked view of movements they'd otherwise have to animate?
Oddly enough I never regarded the Hanna-Barbera franchises as having limited animation as obvious as that though, and I was puzzled when I first saw people on the internet complaining about it - I think they were just clever with how they used what movement they had to make it look more dynamic than it was.
Now if you really want to see the strangest take on limited animation, there's Mr Benn's legs as he walks down Festive Road...
One thing I'd mention is that Star Trek the anime wouldn't be like a lot of the anime we see nowadays. Firstly we only see a fraction of anime translated and released for the anglosphere and it's frequently chosen to appeal to demographics known to sell well in our markets. Secondly, technology and styles have shifted a lot over time.
To give an example of what might be more possible in this era, it might be worth taking a look at My Conquest is the Sea of Stars. It's a science-fiction movie of a similar genre to Babylon 5, part of a larger series called Legend of Galactic Heroes. It was released in 1988, just a few years after the era we're looking at for a Star Trek series animated in Japan.
(I could have referenced Robotech, but I think this is closer in style to what might be done for a Star Trek series)
To give an example of what might be more possible in this era, it might be worth taking a look at My Conquest is the Sea of Stars. It's a science-fiction movie of a similar genre to Babylon 5, part of a larger series called Legend of Galactic Heroes. It was released in 1988, just a few years after the era we're looking at for a Star Trek series animated in Japan.
(I could have referenced Robotech, but I think this is closer in style to what might be done for a Star Trek series)
It won't be an anime per se, but an American made show with animation from Japan. A lot of American shows during this time did this, including the Transformers cartoons (which were alluded to in the narrative)
Well, you now have your answer.
Yeah...and I also knew the next update would be about animation, too. Curse my impatience.
[FONT="]Thank you all for your responses to my latest update, and also to those of you who read it, because That Wacky Redhead now has over 900,000 views, becoming only the fifth thread in the history of the After 1900 forum to reach that milestone [/FONT][FONT="]I'm flattered and humbled beyond belief for your continued support, even after all these years! And now, for my replies to your responses... [/FONT]
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(Also, as VariantAberrant points out, Ruby-Spears appears to have had nothing to do with Mighty Orbots.)
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Turner, of course, was owned and run by Ted Turner, one of this timeline's major villains. I'll let all of you draw (ha!) your own conclusions...[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]I'm flattered and humbled beyond belief for your continued support, even after all these years! And now, for my replies to your responses... [/FONT]
[FONT="]Bumpers with the cast announcing the swift return of their show "after these messages" are very common, and though I've never seen that particular clip before, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it remained through the duration of the show's first-run (and probably summer reruns as well). I am willing to say that it will ITTL, through to 1971.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Your wish is my command! [/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]A fascinating link, Your Imperial Majesty, and thank you for sharing it. That said, I'm not sure I agree entirely with your conclusions. I'd like to invite you all to take a look at [/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]the[/FONT][FONT="] About page[/FONT][/FONT][FONT="] of the comic. For one thing, he describes himself as a "textualist", a truly excellent descriptor (compatible with "Puritan", given the almost religious veneration with which many people treat the US Constitution). But you'll see he's not really a Puritan as I use the term. Like many textualists, he'll accept later "laws" derived from the "founding documents" if they suit his purposes - endorsing the Klingons having bumpy foreheads, referring to a treaty introduced in a later series, as if that has any relevance to the comic he's trying to make, and very much a cafeteria approach to visuals which do not originate from the series proper (his willingness to even consider endorsing the Vandalism is right out). His approach to canon is one worth noting, but I don't think it's quite the same as the Puritan approach.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Considering that Akira and Bubblegum Crisis were both released after 1986, that's unfortunately something we'll never know [/FONT]It is interesting that the major exposition to anime is a Wizard of Oz adaptation... it will make the culture shock of Akira, Bubblegum Crisis and other cyberpunk anime to be more pronunced (sp?)
[FONT="]Assuming the butterflies haven't wiped out the three source anime he used to fashion Robotech. But don't think I haven't thought about Macek and his legacy ITTL...Richter10 said:
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Thank you, nixonshead!Cool update
[FONT="] DiC and TMS, you say? Those two go well together in so many recipes. For example, sprinkle in a little Nelvana for colour, and what do we have here... [/FONT]nixonshead said:
[FONT="]To be honest, I did some research into Star Trek's OTL popularity in Japan in anticipation of this very question, with the generous assistance of Clyde "Tomato" Mandelin, a professional Japanese-to-English translator. The impression I got from his cursory findings is that Star Trek enjoys a small but devoted cult following there - most intriguingly, he pointed me in the direction of a site very similar to his own Legends of Localization - which analyzes the Japanese translations of official media and compares them to the original English-language versions. (It's in Japanese, so I won't link to it, but any of my readers who can understand written Japanese are welcome to PM me if they're interested.) As far as where Star Trek is ITTL, I'd like to think Sulu's more prominent role probably has a positive effect on the show's fandom there (yes, he's a very Americanized character, far more so than Scotty, Chekov, or even Uhura, but he is still played by a Japanese-American actor), as does the longer run and greater, earlier rise in popularity in general. IOTL, it seems that the only market outside of the Anglosphere where Star Trek has been very popular is Germany - I'm not sure if this is just Germany or all of the Germanophone countries - one great (and contemporary) example of this is the crossover hit "99 Luftballons", in which Nena informs us that "everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk".[/FONT]nixonshead said:
[FONT="] Thank you! [/FONT][FONT="]
The ones who appeared on The Muppet Show? Enjoying a long-term vacation. If you meant Jim Henson, he's working on another movie.MatthewFirth said:
Michaels has been kicking about on various projects, still waiting for his big break. A few of OTL's "Not Ready for Primetime Players" have found work elsewhere. Dan Aykroyd and Gilda Radner are on SCTV, and John Belushi replaced the late Robin Williams on The Richard Pryor Show in its final season.MatthewFirth said:
Could you please be a little more specific? That question covers a lot of ground [/FONT][FONT="]MatthewFirth said:
[/FONT][FONT="]I think something like that is bound to happen eventually [/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="] Thank you, jpj1421, and I do apologize for slighting Robin Hood. Its enduring fanbase suggests that it does have some appeal, even if animation lovers are not among its champions.
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[FONT="] In addition to VariantAberrant's helpful observation, Sunrise's exports to Italy are branded as simply "SUNRISE", using the English word.[/FONT]
Ruby-Spears also did the 1980s Alvin and the Chipmunks cartoon, which I remember watching (and enjoying) as a child. Remember, the opinions expressed by the narrator do not necessarily reflect those of the author. A great number of entirely homegrown stateside productions of the 1980s were considerably better than what had come before, though I'd argue this is largely due to the increased competition brought about by the international co-productions. He-Man in many ways feels like a holdover from the 1970s style, though it's probably ASB to expect anything better from Filmation.Kalvan said:
(Also, as VariantAberrant points out, Ruby-Spears appears to have had nothing to do with Mighty Orbots.)
It also makes the property very easily butterflied ITTL.Kalvan said:
Much like Batman: The Animated Series IOTL it owes much superficially to the big-screen adaptation but goes off in its own direction when it comes to plotting and characterization.Kalvan said:
[FONT="] Thank you, Orville.
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[FONT="] Yes, obviously some of the Munchkins were still around in 1984, but I'm not going to change the post to note that. For one thing, they were uncredited (unlike Bolger and Hamilton), most of them were dubbed over (Raabe being one of the few exceptions), and each of the Munchkins were only onscreen for a few seconds anyway. [/FONT]Orville_third said:
[FONT="]To be honest, I'm surprised Ozma/Tip isn't a bigger hit in that community - his/her character arc is so direct (and prescient) a metaphor that it barely even counts as one; I'd say it's as straight a depiction as you can possibly find in a story with magic and witchcraft (and written in 1904). On the other hand... Ariel? Seriously? Granted, I'm not a member of that community, but I've never heard of her being a TG icon before - and let's be honest, the comparison is rather tenuous. Disney's The Little Mermaid is very obviously a coming-of-age story - the ending even says as much explicitly. (As opposed to Andersen's The Little Mermaid, which has a very different ending.) In fact, I'd say the Beast is at least as fitting an icon as Ariel, since his transformation arc has the same end result.[/FONT]Orville_third said:
I haven't, so please feel free to tell me who you have in mind.Orville_third said:
Why would there be an Ewoks series when there are no Ewoks ITTL?Orville_third said:
[FONT="]No, she's just feeling her age. Which is 72, by the way. Cut her some slack, most people her age are already retired. Maybe she should start thinking about that, actually...[/FONT]Orville_third said:
You mean, because of Bosom Buddies (or Soap, ITTL?). I'm not sure I can see it.
Our work here is done
[FONT="]You're probably joking, but I'd like to make clear that it won't be an anime, it'll be a co-production in which a Japanese animation studio does the heavy lifting. Such OTL co-productions from this era included Inspector Gadget, ThunderCats, The Transformers, and many more. There is a blur to the line between that and "true" anime, but it does exist.[/FONT]
I'd call that a good guess. This is the same company that always makes sure they have He-Man coming at camera and punching it to take out every single enemy he encounters.
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When I was a little kid, Hanna-Barbera (or rather, Turner, who had bought them out by that time) was marketing the original The Flintstones series quite aggressively at children - not families, but children specifically. Therefore, I remember watching it a lot, and the first bit of limited animation I remember noticing comes from that show. It is, of course, the Wraparound Background.Thande said:
Turner, of course, was owned and run by Ted Turner, one of this timeline's major villains. I'll let all of you draw (ha!) your own conclusions...[/FONT]
[FONT="] It took me a minute to find it (well, technically, I found what appears to be a reasonable facsimile), but that's some incredibly limited animation [/FONT]Thande said:
[FONT="] Again, this show will not be an anime. It's animated in Japan but produced and overseen by Western studios, for consumption by a Western market first and foremost. American conventions, such as recording the voice actors before animating, and lip-syncing the characters, will be followed. As the examples I've given above show, this is not a radical departure from what was happening at the time IOTL - Desilu just has the foresight to be one of the first studios to board that particular train (unsurprisingly, given their pioneering and innovative history).[/FONT]
Thank you very much, Mr.E, for helping to explain the concept I have in mind
While Google-Fuing Nimoy's accent (because he does have a slight affectation at least during his Star Trek years; the phrase "last chance" would be pronounced in a British way, for example), I discovered this. Brainbin, don't have Leonard Nimoy attempt any accents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaMso75ddb8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaMso75ddb8
[FONT="]Could you please be a little more specific? That question covers a lot of ground [/FONT][FONT="]
OK, what's happening with UK shows on American stations, as well as Doctor Who. And is there an ITV 2 or Channel Two?
Also, what is the music situation at this time, what's topping the charts?
Hey, there. I'm the author of said link! Funny what you find in your AWStats. You are right, I'm not a purist. I do enjoy TNG quite a bit and would consider writing material in that era or with elements of it if I had a story that warranted it. I think you need to read my about again, though. When I'm referencing something contentious it's for the sake readers with wider appreciation of Trek than I. They don't have to argue the Treaty of Algeron and Section 31 because I'm basically voiding them with reason. The treaty of Allgeron matters to the comic because I would not want to keep cloaking off the table for Fed ships of any era.
Between you, me, and the wall, DS9, VOY, ENT, and most of TNG's last two seasons and all of its movies don't exist in my mind. They are strange abominations that I don't understand, so fear not. If by "endorsing the vandalism" you mean entertaining visual elements from ENT, then the only thing I've done in that vein is use a Jefferies ringship concept for the Vulcans that's nothing like the ones in ENT.
But what's in the comic, as of now, is puritan to your definition. That will probably be the case in the foreseeable future. I'm just checking my bases. If you get a chance to read the two completed serials I'd love to hear what you think of them.
Been there, done that
That said, the "British-isms" in Nimoy's Spock "accent" that always stuck out to me were "answer" and "transporter" - anything with the short "a" sound, as you say. (Though I'm probably simplifying that, but fortunately we have someone who's studied linguistics reading this thread who might be kind enough to describe the phoneme we're talking about properly.)We'll return to British telly - and Doctor Who - one more time before the TL ends. There is indeed an ITV-2, which was discussed in this update.
A song is topping the chartsMatthewFirth said:
Well, first of all, I'd like to thank you very much for taking the time to register to this forum and post to this thread to address my observations; it's very much appreciated
My point there was that a Puritan, as opposed to a textualist, would reject them right out and not refer to them. A Federation ship used (stolen) cloaking technology in "The Enterprise Incident", and that's good enough to keep that option on the table for any other Federation ships, since a Puritan would disregard any treaties established in later shows out of hand. But I think we're just taking different approaches to reaching the same end. If it were me, I would issue a blanket statement, but as you say, you do have some things from the later series that you would want to include, so you can't do that.Mark2000 said:
To be honest, the real contradiction along those lines to me is refusing to accept the Romulans having anything more than "simple impulse", but retconning in the bumpy foreheads for the Klingons despite them not featuring in the series at all, purely based on the word of Roddenberry (who had an established record of duplicitous and self-aggrandizing statements). Now, granted, my conception of the fictional Puritan does have that Roddenberry-worship aspect that many old-school fans have, and (if circumstances were like those of our own history) might very well accept his proclamation at face value. Though I will note that Gene Coon, not Gene Roddenberry, created the Klingons, and in his original script of "Errand of Mercy", described them only as "oriental, hard-faced".
When I talk about "the vandalism", I'm specifically referring to this (which is professional vandalism, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the intentions behind it, hence the term), not to any spinoffs (which may violate fanon, but are at least not superseding or retconning any onscreen visuals). No Puritan would ever accept that, even one who (grudgingly) came to accept the spinoffs for what they are. But I've been informed by one of my readers that many of the new visuals are apparently informed by established fanon and licenced materials, and I can see how that might have an appeal.Mark2000 said:
Well, since you've gone to so much trouble just to address my observations, the very least I can do is sit down and give your comic a proper read. I'll be sure to let you know what I think!Mark2000 said:
Well, except for ENT there are no contradictory statements out there regarding Romulans and warp drive. Only a blurb from Okuda in the Encyclopedia. ENT also has the Romulans with cloaking technology something Kirk and Spock had never seen. I'm betting the Romulans would have won the war if everything in ENT was true. Talk about alternate history. Scotty said what Scotty said in BOT, so I accept it. Especially since the S.S. Valiant had the same kind of drive.
But the Klingons were a change made by Roddenberry and to me it makes sense. I'm not a big fan of the Flash Gordon, yellow peril, formula of alien design. I actually have my own vision of the Klingons that would return them to their TOS roots with toned down bumps, no armor or bladed weapons, and no crazy long hair. You can see it in an animated short I did a few years ago. I also added some Turkish influences to the culture because I feel they were a model of empire that's often neglected.
I actually like very little of TOS-R. I dig a lot of the live action stuff, like the matte painting replacements when they were originally reuses. But I'm not into most of the space stuff. Of the space shots I only like the TAS style freighters and the new Medusan ship. Even then they are... very representative of the time and budget they were allotted by the studio in both rendering and movement. That project really needed the kind of resources and care TNG-R is currently getting. I'm especially not cool with the replacement of the Tholian ships with ENT style ones.
Really, the reason why I don't just say "New Trek is right out" is because I don't want to offend my possible readership. Every walk of fan should be able to enjoy the comic. I also know I have some readers from the production staff of later shows and I don't want to openly attack their work. If I have a quibble I want to have a reasoned argument for it with a footnote that this is just my opinion and I am just some dope with an inmotion hosting account.
I would be honored.
There is, even in TOS, sufficient evidence to point to "impulse power" or "impulse engines" being capable in some way of limited superluminal speeds. The S.S. Valiant, which as you note is explicitly described using the same terms, travels the distance from Earth to the edge of the galaxy in a period of time which, while not specifically stated, must be less than a century or two. Even flying straight "up" or "down" towards to roof or floor of the galaxy instead of the outer rim, this requires traveling hundreds of lightyears. Thus, to make the trip, the Valiant's "old impulse engines" must have been capable of multiple times the speed of light. If these "impulse engines" are superluminal, but slower than the Enterprise's warp drive, then there's no reason to think that the Romulan's engines are any different, even based on evidence solely within TOS.
This matches nicely with the logic that it's not almost impossible to imagine a conflict serious enough to be remembered as a war when the strategic tempo of one side is set by needing near-decades to cross between star systems and the other can make a similar journey in weeks or days. That's not a war--it's a slaughter. Mass your forces against fleets-in-transit, and destroy in detail. If both sides have superluminal travel, but one is simply a little faster, then you have a balanced enough technological situation that you can much more reasonably see a hard-fought, grinding war lasting years.
The S.S. Valiant was clearly swept up by a tachyon particle conduit in space/went through a wormhole/additional BS excuse for a show never intended to last a half century. (I can make up an excuse for anything in Star Trek, which derives from my attempts to keep Santa Claus real till I was 12 with the excusatory logic therein)
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