That Wacky Redhead

[Dan1988]

Brazil and Argentina are by far the most geographically extensive countries in South America - it's a lot harder for the others to find a place that's in the middle of nowhere.

Not only that, but if you can read Spanish, I'd suggest reading the "Proyecto Patagonia" page on the Spanish Wiki - it almost happened in OTL; in TTL it's basically carried through to succession and made easier by the War. In addition, the planned capital is pretty much in a perfect spot.

 

[THE OBSERVER]

Of course, ITTL, many Argentines and not a few Chileans have perished in this war, and the Argentine economy and military is devastated.

Well, like other events ITTL, it is a tradeoff. This world isn't a utopia.

 

[Kung Fucious]

Nice update, and I enjoyed TTL's flip of the Sun's infamous "GOTCHA!" headline, along with referring to the Argentine military as "Argies" (which IIRC was something the Thatcher government had expected the BBC to push but was rejected in favor of "the Argentine military"). Alas, the butterflying of the Falkland War robs us of the greatest news headline ever, "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK!" I'd be very down for a few more updates like this, if any are planned.

 

[naraht]

didn't [/I]march through them - they marched across the river, specifically that section of which was also the border between Brazilian and Argentine territory. Hence the Battle of the Uruguay as opposed to the Battle of Uruguay. I realize that the only difference is an article (which many languages don't have), but it's consistent with standard nomenclature for battles across rivers - witness the twelve (!) Battles of the Isonzo in World War I, for example.

Winning a quick and easy military victory against a longtime rival is good for morale, and good for consolidating popular support. In addition, it's an easy way for Brazil (an emerging power, lest we forget) to shine on the world's stage, to endear themselves to the US and the UN, and for them to have a seat at the peace table.

Montevideo is a coastal city on the River Plate - most of the coalition fleet is nearby when the Armistice is signed, so it's chosen in part for convenience.

Brazil and Argentina are by far the most geographically extensive countries in South America - it's a lot harder for the others to find a place that's in the middle of nowhere.

Thought there was one of the "Battle of the Uruguay" without the the, but it does make sense.

Chile has some *way* out of the way places and neither Columbia nor Venezuela has a significant population in the south (but, I agree, still tough for most other countries to do a Brazilia).

 

[Daibhid C]

An intriguing update. Since I never feel like I know enough to comment much on the international politics posts, you'll excuse me if I talk nonsense instead.

From a pop-culture standpoint, the most pressing question (apart from Evita, which you covered) is how does this affect the career of Andy Cameron?

No, really.

Assuming that "Ally's Tartan Army" hasn't been butterflied away, it would have to be a bit different; the lyric "England cannae dae it, 'cos they didnae qualify" obviously has to go for a start. It seems likely that the digs against England will become more pointed, so that instead of portraying Scotland as patriotically representing the UK, much is made of the fact we're competing against the Auld Enemy.

Now, I don't know how popular it was in England IOTL, but I can't believe it entered the top 10 on Scottish sales alone. A more anti-English stance could have hurt sales.

I also wondered if it might get limited airplay on national radio, especially since England presumably have a World Cup song of their own, but on further investigation this doesn't seem to have hurt OTL's "We Have a Dream" in 1982. So let's say it gets into the top 20, anyway.

So, this is the interesting bit. IOTL that's pretty much the only song anyone associates with Cameron. But he released an album on the strength of it; it just sunk like a stone because we were knocked out of the competition so fast that all the buzz disappeared.

A stronger showing for Scotland in the World Cup could lead to a resurgence of tartan comic songs as part of Scottish culture. Which would be further evidence that you're not writing a utopia.

 

[Space Oddity]

You know, I have to ask what Jorge Luis Borges was doing during all that.

 

[Francisco Cojuanco]

You know, I have to ask what Jorge Luis Borges was doing during all that.

Or a certain Argentinian Jesuit who at the time OTL is the head of the Argentine branch of the Order...

 

[NCW8]

Ouch! There's no need for three-letter words!

I knew I should have put a Smiley in there.

Exactly. For one thing, there's no "Che" character ITTL (Tim Rice would make a good AH author, throwing him into the mix because he just happens to be born in the right time and place ).

From what I've read, "Che" was originally meant to be a more neutral character (as in the film), rather than an expy of Che Guevara.

A later production of Evita is going to have an effect on the career of Elaine Paige, as Evita was her big breakthrough. It also helped David Essex in his move from Pop Musician to Musical Actor.

Note that IOTL, Evita premiered before the Falklands War, and I feel that this would make the difference.

That's true. I remember a military brass band playing an upbeat version of Don't Cry for Me Argentina as the troops were embarking to sail to the South Atlantic.

You're making quite a few premature assumptions about the career trajectories of Benny Andersson and Björn Ulvaeus ITTL...

So what has happened to ABBA ITTL ? IOTL, there was something of a gap between their Eurovision win and them consistantly getting top ten hits, so even if they don't take part in Eurovision, there's still a chance that they could become hits.

Of course, there's also the opposite effect. Without ABBA winning Eurovision, the song contest is going to look even more irrelevant than it did OTL. I'd expect Wogan-style mocking of the contest to start a little sooner than OTL.


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Thande]

Orville makes a good point about the Exocet. The term has entered the language here and is even used by people who know nothing about the Falklands War to describe, for example, an unexpected work assignment that's suddenly been dumped on you or a shocking revelation about someone you know. So with them not becoming a household name in TTL, it represents a small but significant change to the (British) English language.

 

[Brainbin]

Not only that, but if you can read Spanish, I'd suggest reading the "Proyecto Patagonia" page on the Spanish Wiki - it almost happened in OTL; in TTL it's basically carried through to succession and made easier by the War. In addition, the planned capital is pretty much in a perfect spot.

I should also add that Viedma was passed by the coalition strike force on the long trek to the River Plate, and could stand to be rebuilt. Moving the capital there could be considered a public works project, not to mention a symbol of revitalization for Patagonia, devastated by both Chilean and coalition offensives.

Nice update, and I enjoyed TTL's flip of the Sun's infamous "GOTCHA!" headline, along with referring to the Argentine military as "Argies" (which IIRC was something the Thatcher government had expected the BBC to push but was rejected in favor of "the Argentine military"). Alas, the butterflying of the Falkland War robs us of the greatest news headline ever, "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK!" I'd be very down for a few more updates like this, if any are planned.

Thank you, Kung Fucious! I had that legendary headline (which, I agree, is perhaps the greatest ever written) in mind as I was considering what to do with the Falklands ITTL. One of the factors in my decision was that, ITTL, even if the Falklands War unfolded largely as it did IOTL, it would be without that headline - since The Empire Strikes Back (or, indeed, any sequel to Journey of the Force) has not been released. With regard to the term "Argies", it definitely feels appropriately tabloid-populist, and it also has the advantage of being pronounced the same on both sides of the Pond - "Argentine", by contrast, would rhyme with "sardine" in North America, and with "valentine" in the UK and Australia. As far as further updates in this vein, although I don't have anything planned, I certainly won't rule it out, either!

An intriguing update.

Thank you, Daibhid!

Assuming that "Ally's Tartan Army" hasn't been butterflied away, it would have to be a bit different; the lyric "England cannae dae it, 'cos they didnae qualify" obviously has to go for a start. It seems likely that the digs against England will become more pointed, so that instead of portraying Scotland as patriotically representing the UK, much is made of the fact we're competing against the Auld Enemy.

He is aware that the chorus shouting "SCOTLAND!" is obscuring his actual lyrics, right?

Now, I don't know how popular it was in England IOTL, but I can't believe it entered the top 10 on Scottish sales alone. A more anti-English stance could have hurt sales.

I also wondered if it might get limited airplay on national radio, especially since England presumably have a World Cup song of their own, but on further investigation this doesn't seem to have hurt OTL's "We Have a Dream" in 1982. So let's say it gets into the top 20, anyway.

But would the 1978 Scottish World Cup Song (TM) necessarily have anti-English lyrics? You mention "We Have A Dream" from 1982, leading me to check that song's lyrics, and I found nothing explicitly anti-English (unless I'm failing to read between the lines). Who's to say that *"Ally's Tartan Army" doesn't butterfly the references to England entirely? Perhaps I'm misjudging his intentions, but Cameron seems to be encouraging his fellow Britons to rally round the only British team to have made the playoffs in solidarity as opposed to simply kicking England when they're down. What I will say is that a Top 10 finish on the charts seems virtually guaranteed for whichever song emerges - IOTL, "Ally's Tartan Army" reached #6, and "We Have A Dream" did it one better at #5 - with England in the World Cup. Figure that one out

So, this is the interesting bit. IOTL that's pretty much the only song anyone associates with Cameron. But he released an album on the strength of it; it just sunk like a stone because we were knocked out of the competition so fast that all the buzz disappeared.

A stronger showing for Scotland in the World Cup could lead to a resurgence of tartan comic songs as part of Scottish culture. Which would be further evidence that you're not writing a utopia.

IOTL, Scotland was eliminated on June 11, 1978 - ITTL, their last game is on June 21, but they're effectively out from June 18, all of one week later. Would that really be enough to make the difference? Granted, Scotland's never done better (this should be enough to vindicate MacLeod's tenure as manager, if nothing else), but it's not as if they've come anywhere close to winning. If it does make the difference for Cameron, then it would follow that maybe tartan comic songs do re-emerge, even if only briefly.

You know, I have to ask what Jorge Luis Borges was doing during all that.

Or a certain Argentinian Jesuit who at the time OTL is the head of the Argentine branch of the Order...

They spent most of the war drinking wine together in a little cafe called La Bella Aurora in Buenos Aires

In all seriousness? Two very good questions. Borges will probably write extensively about the Argentine War (which, by the way, will natively be known as La Guerra del Beagle - the Beagle War) after it has concluded. Maybe he'll finally win that Nobel Prize for Literature he has long sought for a poignant account of the physical and psychological devastation wrought by the conflict, and by the regime that precipitated it. Churchill won his Nobel Prize for writing about a war, after all. As for Bergoglio, no doubt the Argentine Jesuits, under his leadership, will play a crucial part in tending to those who have been displaced, maimed, widowed, and/or orphaned by the conflict.

From what I've read, "Che" was originally meant to be a more neutral character (as in the film), rather than an expy of Che Guevara.

I've heard that anecdote, too - but I'm going to sidestep the possibility by simply not having an analogous character appear ITTL.

A later production of Evita is going to have an effect on the career of Elaine Paige, as Evita was her big breakthrough. It also helped David Essex in his move from Pop Musician to Musical Actor.

Having never heard of Elaine Paige until, some years ago, an unassuming middle-aged woman stated her ambition to be as popular and successful as her, I can't say with certainty that Paige would break through ITTL. However, considered that she followed up her success in Evita with Cats and Chess, I think it's fairly likely.

That's true. I remember a military brass band playing an upbeat version of Don't Cry for Me Argentina as the troops were embarking to sail to the South Atlantic.

It's remarkable how heavily that song weighs in the popular conception of Argentina. I couldn't possibly have titled that update any differently

So what has happened to ABBA ITTL ? IOTL, there was something of a gap between their Eurovision win and them consistantly getting top ten hits, so even if they don't take part in Eurovision, there's still a chance that they could become hits.

Of course, there's also the opposite effect. Without ABBA winning Eurovision, the song contest is going to look even more irrelevant than it did OTL. I'd expect Wogan-style mocking of the contest to start a little sooner than OTL.

Well, for one thing, calling them "ABBA" seems too convergent. How about "FABB" instead (with "F" for "Frida" instead of "A" for "Anni-Frid")?

The formation of *ABBA seems reasonably likely. All four members had met and worked together by 1969. They probably would have represented Sweden at Eurovision - they kept on trying and it's not as though there's a very high threshold for quality there (he says, having never watched more than a few minutes of any Eurovision contest and knowing it strictly by reputation). They're bound to be hitmakers in (Continental) Europe - whether they break through to the Anglosphere is another question. The UK and Australia loved them to pieces, but the US and Canada were a lot more reserved - though they still hit the Billboard Top 10 four times (and #1 once, with "Dancing Queen").

Orville makes a good point about the Exocet. The term has entered the language here and is even used by people who know nothing about the Falklands War to describe, for example, an unexpected work assignment that's suddenly been dumped on you or a shocking revelation about someone you know. So with them not becoming a household name in TTL, it represents a small but significant change to the (British) English language.

I was actually hoping to have the French themselves use the Exocet against the Argentines, but unfortunately the timing just wasn't right - those three intervening years (and the acquisitions taking place therein) actually made the Argentines a force to be reckoned with, although they still would have been curb-stomped by a unified coalition force - albeit one in which the British component (headed by the V/STOL Hermes instead of the CATOBAR Ark Royal) would have been even weaker than ITTL.

But yes, an excellent observation about the linguistic impact of the (lack of) Exocet missiles on the (British) English language.

 

[NCW8]

I've heard that anecdote, too - but I'm going to sidestep the possibility by simply not having an analogous character appear ITTL.

In their early musicals, Rice and Lloyd Webber generally had a character who served as the narrator - explicitly so in Joseph. Che was that character in Evita. However, in Cats, the narrator role was spread out among the cast. Since TTL's Evita is written about the same time as Cats was OTL, you're probably right that they wouldn't include an explicit narrator.

Having never heard of Elaine Paige until, some years ago, an unassuming middle-aged woman stated her ambition to be as popular and successful as her, I can't say with certainty that Paige would break through ITTL. However, considered that she followed up her success in Evita with Cats and Chess, I think it's fairly likely.

Mind you, her being cast as Grizabella in Cats only came about because Judi Dench injured herself during rehearsals.

Well, for one thing, calling them "ABBA" seems too convergent. How about "FABB" instead (with "F" for "Frida" instead of "A" for "Anni-Frid")?

I'm not sure how that would sound to a Swede. However, it does sound like they're trying to copy the Fab Four, and "Fab" does have something of a Sixties feel, which a Seventies band probably wouldn't want to copy.

The formation of *ABBA seems reasonably likely. All four members had met and worked together by 1969. They probably would have represented Sweden at Eurovision - they kept on trying and it's not as though there's a very high threshold for quality there (he says, having never watched more than a few minutes of any Eurovision contest and knowing it strictly by reputation).

It was taken a bit more seriously in the early years. It did produce a few memorable songs, such as Puppet on a String, and established stars such as Lulu and Cliff Richard did take part. ABBA's victory probably marks the end of that era.


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[The Professor]

According to the wikicide:

Official naming
In early 1973, Stig Anderson, tired of unwieldy names, started to refer to the group privately and publicly as ABBA. At first, this was a play on words, as Abba is also the name of a well-known fish-canning company in Sweden, and itself an acronym. However, since the fish-canners were unknown outside Sweden, Anderson came to believe the name would work in international markets. A competition to find a suitable name for the group was held in a Gothenburg newspaper. The group was impressed with the names "Alibaba", "FABB", and "Baba", but in the end all the entries were ignored and it was officially announced in the summer that the group were to be known as "ABBA". The group negotiated with the canners for the rights to the name.[21] "ABBA" is an acronym formed from the first letters of each group member's first name: Agnetha, Björn, Benny and Anni-Frid.[22] During a promotional photo, Benny flipped his "B" horizontally for fun, and from 1976 onwards the first 'B' in the logo version of the name was "mirror-image" reversed on the band's promotional material and ᗅᗺᗷᗅ became the group's registered trademark.
The first time "ABBA" is found written on paper is on a recording session sheet from the Metronome Studio in Stockholm, dated 16 October 1973. This was first written as "Björn, Benny, Agnetha & Frida", but was subsequently crossed out with "ABBA" written in large letters on top.
The official logo, using the bold version of the News Gothic typeface, was designed by Rune Söderqvist, and appeared for the first time on the "Dancing Queen" single in August 1976, and subsequently on all later original albums and singles. But the idea for the official logo was made by the German photographer Wolfgang Heilemann on a "Dancing Queen" shoot for the teenage magazine Bravo. On the photo, the ABBA members held a giant initial letter of his/her name. After the pictures were made, Heilemann found out that one of the men held his letter backwards as in ᗅᗺᗷᗅ®. They discussed it and the members of ABBA liked it. Following their acquisition of the group's catalogue, Polygram began using variations of the ABBA logo, using a different font and adding a crown emblem to it in 1992 for the first release of the ABBA Gold: Greatest Hits compilation. When Universal Music purchased Polygram (and, thus, ABBA's label Polar Music International), control of the group's catalogue was returned to Stockholm. Since then, the original logo has been reinstated on all official products.[23]

So it's possible they don't get the rights to Abba ITTL. Personally I find multiple syllables fit better so perhaps Baba or Alibaba?

 

[Thande]

According to the wikicide:

The group was impressed with the names "Alibaba", "FABB", and "Baba", but in the end all the entries were ignored and it was officially announced in the summer that the group were to be known as "ABBA".

Truth really is stranger than fiction, because I can remember Men Behaving Badly doing a joke similar to that:

Tony: Just think, if Agnetha or Anni-Frid had been called, say, Betty, then Abba would've been called "Babb". (beat) And if they'd teamed up with the Bee Gees - Barry, Maurice and Robin - then they could've been... "Brabbam"?

 

[NCW8]

Truth really is stranger than fiction, because I can remember Men Behaving Badly doing a joke similar to that:

One of Humph's more polite introductions for Colin Sell said that he was nearly part of a group called CABBA.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Thande]

One of Humph's more polite introductions for Colin Sell said that he was nearly part of a group called CABBA.

Cheers,
Nigel.

Apropos of nothing, I went to "see" a live production of Sorry I Haven't A Clue - a 'best of' thing, not a recording for the radio - a few months ago. Never seen Sheffield City Hall so packed. I've been there for concerts with popular bands that haven't managed to fill out every seat like ISIHAC managed.

 

[Brainbin]

Mind you, her being cast as Grizabella in Cats only came about because Judi Dench injured herself during rehearsals.

Hmmm, butterflying that and keeping Judi Dench on the stage and largely away from the screen? That would certainly be... different

I'm not sure how that would sound to a Swede. However, it does sound like they're trying to copy the Fab Four, and "Fab" does have something of a Sixties feel, which a Seventies band probably wouldn't want to copy.

So it's possible they don't get the rights to Abba ITTL. Personally I find multiple syllables fit better so perhaps Baba or Alibaba?

Just think, if Agnetha or Anni-Frid had been called, say, Betty, then Abba would've been called "Babb". (beat) And if they'd teamed up with the Bee Gees - Barry, Maurice and Robin - then they could've been... "Brabbam"?

One of Humph's more polite introductions for Colin Sell said that he was nearly part of a group called CABBA.

Well, to address the great Agnetha/Anni-Frid/Benny/Bjorn name debate, I like the name "Ali Baba" best. It's ridiculous but not overly so for a 1970s-80s pop/rock group, and it gives them a legitimate reason to dress up in those ludicrous costumes of theirs (which they've since revealed they did mostly for tax purposes ). I imagine it would be stylized as "Ali BABA" to emphasize the acronym. And maybe instead of "Fernando", we'd get a song about Arab freedom fighters...

 

[Lindseyman]

Hmmm, butterflying that and keeping Judi Dench on the stage and largely away from the screen? That would certainly be... different
...

Well in OTL she is mainly theatre, telly and radio with a few films thrown in (OK most of those have been successful but then she's a very good actor)

 

[The Professor]

Hmmm, butterflying that and keeping Judi Dench on the stage and largely away from the screen? That would certainly be... different

Well, to address the great Agnetha/Anni-Frid/Benny/Bjorn name debate, I like the name "Ali Baba" best. It's ridiculous but not overly so for a 1970s-80s pop/rock group, and it gives them a legitimate reason to dress up in those ludicrous costumes of theirs (which they've since revealed they did mostly for tax purposes ). I imagine it would be stylized as "Ali BABA" to emphasize the acronym. And maybe instead of "Fernando", we'd get a song about Arab freedom fighters...

One imagines there might even be a Russian influenced album called BABA yaga or something

 

[redlibertyx]

Well they did have "The Visitors" OTL — the title track (among others) of which was "inspired" by the Soviet Union...

 

[NCW8]

One imagines there might even be a Russian influenced album called BABA yaga or something

It's a shame that they weren't active at the same time, but they could have done a collaberation with The Mamas and The Papas called The BABAPAPAS.

Cheers,
Nigel.