That Wacky Redhead

[Brainbin]

I haven't replied to this before?

How odd.

I always make sure to double-check on these things, and yes, that was your first post to this thread. I knew I recognized your name from somewhere though, which actually threw me off at first, but e of pi helpfully reminded me that you're a regular over on Eyes Turned Skyward. Thanks for making the trip over!

So instead of cyberpunk might we have cyber-cliffhangers or cyberpulp? I'm trying to imagine the adventures of Shōsa Kusanagi in a less pessimistic milieu and my imagination is failing...

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that reference, and the only exact match on Google is... a link back to this thread.

It's a refit, designed by Matt Jefferies, for The Next Voyage miniseries.

This description was the starting point, with much back-and-forth with Brainbin and e of pi to come to the final result.

That's exactly right - our primary quibbles were the nacelles (I wanted something more cylindrical than the boxy OTL refit nacelles), where to put the torpedo bays (which wound up creating a helpful precedent when it came to design the Artemis) and the detail of the hull around the sensor dish (along with the dish itself).

Maybe Randal Garrett's Lord Darcy series could become more mainstream - the first couple of stories were written before the POD. Its roughly Victorian level of magic-based technology gives it something of a Steampunk feel.

More stories in that sort of setting would be nice. I love the Darcy books.

A surviving Angevin Empire, ruled from London, which controls most of Europe and all of the Americas? How positively delightful! Granted, it's not particularly rigorous as alternate history, though as we all know most mainstream examples of the genre are not (what with those petty concerns about narrative flexibility ).

You mean something like that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dragon%27s_Daughter ?

It was one of my favourite fantasy/"magicpunk" novels.

An intriguing story, although obviously it comes far too late to have any relevance ITTL.

Maybe, but I can't help wondering what Lew Grade has been up to ITTL. He was very keen to sell his shows into the American market. After failing with Thunderbirds and Space 1999 he was successful with The Muppet Show. Now ITTL he doesn't have this success, so what does he do instead?

Bolding for emphasis. He may not have The Muppet Show ITTL, but he does have Space: 1999, remember? So he doesn't have anything to prove.

One possibility would be to try and make Sapphire and Steel more appealing for a US audience - perhaps by casting an American actress as Sapphire. David McCallum would probably be considered to be well known enough in the States thanks to his role in The Man from U.N.C.L.E., so he's still a good candidate to play Steel.

I won't dismiss it out of hand, though it's harder to imagine an American woman who can play that same kind of refined character type as well as Joanna Lumley

As for the BBC, well I think that the long term effect of the Yank Years will be that Doctor Who disappears from the screens earlier than in OTL. That means that they might be looking for a replacement in the early Eighties.

Are you seriously advocating that I cancel Doctor Who?! Not that I object at all, but I never thought I'd see one of my British readers suggesting it!

Perhaps The Tripods get their third series ITTL?

Ah, it looks like you're suggesting that I cancel Doctor Who in 1985, at the same time as its original (and short-lived) first cancellation IOTL...

 

[Clorox23]

Are you seriously advocating that I cancel Doctor Who?! Not that I object at all, but I never thought I'd see one of my British readers suggesting it!

Ah, it looks like you're suggesting that I cancel Doctor Who in 1985, at the same time as its original (and short-lived) first cancellation IOTL...

...could you not? I mean, I'd like one timeline on here where Doctor Who doesn't get cancelled...

 

[NCW8]

A surviving Angevin Empire, ruled from London, which controls most of Europe and all of the Americas? How positively delightful! Granted, it's not particularly rigorous as alternate history, though as we all know most mainstream examples of the genre are not (what with those petty concerns about narrative flexibility ).

Oh it is - it's mainly a mystery series with a fantasy background and, as Whodunits, the stories do play fair with the reader. The solution is never "A Wizard Did It". The alt history touches are there mainly to get the stories published in Analog, which did not normally publish Fantasy.

Bolding for emphasis. He may not have The Muppet Show ITTL, but he does have Space: 1999, remember? So he doesn't have anything to prove.

I thought it was UFO:1999 ITTL? I can't recall whether you said it went over well in the US.

I won't dismiss it out of hand, though it's harder to imagine an American woman who can play that same kind of refined character type as well as Joanna Lumley

I don't know. Connie Booth could handle that sort of role quite well (although she probably wouldn't be selected for this particular role). As Lumley is otherwise occupied, someone else would have to be cast anyway, and choosing an American is a popular gambit for British tv producers with an eye on the American market.

Are you seriously advocating that I cancel Doctor Who?! Not that I object at all, but I never thought I'd see one of my British readers suggesting it!

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but I think that an earlier cancellation is a likely consequence of the events ITTL. First of all, when Desilu stop doing the special effects for Doctor Who, there is going to be a drop in the quality of the production values. Although the effects won't be worse than they were in OTL, that drop is going to put some viewers off.

The second reason is more subtle and it is to do with a particular episode - City of Death. This episode was written by Douglas Adams and is lighter and more comedic. It is popular with many people who aren't Doctor Who fans and is considered to be one of the best stories to introduce people to the series. It also happened to be broadcast during the Great ITV Strike when there was literally nothing else to watch. In the previous season, viewing figures for Doctor Who were around the 9 million mark. The first episode of City of Death drew an audience of 12.4 million, which can be put down to the effects of the strike. By the last episode, viewing figures had climbed to 16.1 million. Obviously these figures couldn't be maintained when ITV started broadcasting again, however after the strike, viewing figures for Doctor Who were around the 10 million mark. So one effect of the ITV strike was to boost the ratings of Doctor Who.

Now ITTL, the British Economy is better (no excessive inflation) and the Conservatives are (presumably) taking a tougher line with the Unions than Labour did OTL. So while there have no doubt been some industrial action in the tv companies, there probably hasn't been anything like OTL's ten week shutdown of ITV and so no equivalent boost to the BBC's viewing figures.

The combined effect is that Doctor Who is going into the Eighties with lower viewing figures than OTL. That is likely to lead to earlier cancellation ITTL.


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Kung Fucious]

Love the renders of the Artemis/Ares, will we ever see them for the Excelsior?

 

[e of pi]

Love the renders of the Artemis/Ares, will we ever see them for the Excelsior?

We've been talking about it, but Nixonshead has other commitments or his inestimable talents (most notably, aside from RL, my own Eyes Turned Skyward, and his new and quite brilliant Kolyma's Shadow). I personally look forward a lot to seeing what he can help us develop for Excelsior.

 

[Mefisto]

An intriguing story, although obviously it comes far too late to have any relevance ITTL.

Yes, but I wanted to ask if this kind of stories would come earlier ITTL (though probably still not early enough to have any relevance). This one story would probably be butterflied away.

 

[OwenM]

On the other hand, they've actually cracked the US market, something never managed OTL, even if it's currently only in syndication.
And I thought Desilu were continuing, it was just NBC that had dropped out?

 

[Time slip]

Yes, Oz co-directed The Broken Crystal ITTL.

That could mean his directorial career could suffer due to the increased expectations as well. Maybe he ends up directing TV episodes for Desilu if he gets no offers to direct other films?

My view is that horror tends to be classier ITTL, more psychological and atmospheric as opposed to visceral. The Exorcist (as directed by Bogdanovich as opposed to Friedkin) was more stylized, less gratuitous than the OTL version. And the reality in a TL where the hippie mindset lingers (and is vindicated, to an extent, by the cessation of the overseas quagmire), we're very likely to see a more "European" viewpoint emerge as to what is acceptable on the big screen - more nudity, less violence. Even IOTL, nudity was relatively plentiful in the 1970s and 1980s in comparison to today - but that trend has faded, whereas the violence has remained prominent. Obviously there are still slasher precedents such as Psycho to influence future filmmakers, but there is a blowback against that as well, with the "video nasty" scandals focusing almost entirely on violence.

The idea of an American horror genre with a more European sensibility is interesting, and has me thinking about how what became the slasher sub-genre in OTL may develop ITTL. Perhaps an American filmmaker (De Palma ?) ends up making a successful film that basically rips off the giallo genre, causing slashers ITTL to develop into a genre more similar in some ways to their Italian cousins?

 

[Brainbin]

...could you not? I mean, I'd like one timeline on here where Doctor Who doesn't get cancelled...

You do realize that even if I cancel it, Doctor Who will still have been on the air for over twenty years, right? That is a prodigiously long run, both by British standards and by American ones (excluding soap operas, of course). Whereas Star Trek only ran for three seasons and 79 episodes - which, if it had been any other show at the time, would not even have been enough for a successful syndication run? If I cancel Doctor Who, it will come back, as it did IOTL... just not before 1986

I thought it was UFO:1999 ITTL? I can't recall whether you said it went over well in the US.

Yes, that was UFO: 1999, but since Space: 1999 rose out of its ashes I conflated the two. As far as UFO's success stateside, it did quite well - easily the best-performing of those shows crossing the pond in the wake of Doctor Who. It aired in network primetime, and did so well that its star, Michael Billington, was chosen to play James Bond because his American name recognition was deemed sufficiently strong. After that, it ran one more season, ratings tanked, and it was cancelled - basically, the exact same thing that happened to The Avengers after Diana Rigg left (also to star in a James Bond movie). But Lew Grade was involved, all the same.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but I think that an earlier cancellation is a likely consequence of the events ITTL. First of all, when Desilu stop doing the special effects for Doctor Who, there is going to be a drop in the quality of the production values. Although the effects won't be worse than they were in OTL, that drop is going to put some viewers off.

The second reason is more subtle and it is to do with a particular episode - City of Death. This episode was written by Douglas Adams and is lighter and more comedic. It is popular with many people who aren't Doctor Who fans and is considered to be one of the best stories to introduce people to the series. It also happened to be broadcast during the Great ITV Strike when there was literally nothing else to watch. In the previous season, viewing figures for Doctor Who were around the 9 million mark. The first episode of City of Death drew an audience of 12.4 million, which can be put down to the effects of the strike. By the last episode, viewing figures had climbed to 16.1 million. Obviously these figures couldn't be maintained when ITV started broadcasting again, however after the strike, viewing figures for Doctor Who were around the 10 million mark. So one effect of the ITV strike was to boost the ratings of Doctor Who.

Now ITTL, the British Economy is better (no excessive inflation) and the Conservatives are (presumably) taking a tougher line with the Unions than Labour did OTL. So while there have no doubt been some industrial action in the tv companies, there probably hasn't been anything like OTL's ten week shutdown of ITV and so no equivalent boost to the BBC's viewing figures.

The combined effect is that Doctor Who is going into the Eighties with lower viewing figures than OTL. That is likely to lead to earlier cancellation ITTL.

A most intriguing analysis. I shall have to bear that in mind as I finish sketching out the rest of my timeline. Thanks for your input!

Love the renders of the Artemis/Ares, will we ever see them for the Excelsior?

Welcome aboard, Kung Fucious! I'm really glad that you enjoy the renders of the Artemis so much, a lot of hard work and careful deliberation went into them. As e of pi says, nixonshead is a very busy man, but when the time comes, we do indeed hope to put a face to the Excelsior

Yes, but I wanted to ask if this kind of stories would come earlier ITTL (though probably still not early enough to have any relevance). This one story would probably be butterflied away.

It would certainly be possible for stories of this type to be written, or at least for authors to share this attitude: "The novel changes fantasy tropes and archetypes, such as elves and dragons, for which critic John Clute labeled the book an 'anti-fantasy.' Swanwick admits having written it both as a homage to J.R.R. Tolkien and in reaction to a handful of writers he claims exploit Tolkien's milieu and the readers' imaginations with derivative, commercial fantasy". Even IOTL, the glut of "Tolkienesque" fantasy novels is a problem, as noted on TV Tropes: "In The Lord of the Rings, Mordor has a lot of fertile areas thanks to all that volcanic ash, the characters speak a wide variety of archaic accents and dialects, and victory is achieved through rejection of power. In the many books and films written 'in the style of' Tolkien, their Mordor looks like Hell, characters speak Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe, and victory is achieved through force of arms." There seems to be ample room for meta-critique there.

On the other hand, they've actually cracked the US market, something never managed OTL, even if it's currently only in syndication.

And the entire catalogue of episodes still exists ITTL! Isn't that enough of a good deed for the legacy of Doctor Who?

And I thought Desilu were continuing, it was just NBC that had dropped out?

Desilu continued until the end of the Third Doctor's run - they syndicate each Doctor separately (which is why the First and Second Doctors are so rarely seen stateside). They figure it's worth continuing to invest in post-production on the show for as long as the Third Doctor remains, because it means more episodes for their syndication package. Once he's gone, so are they. This gives the adventures of the Fourth Doctor (played by Jim Dale) a completely different look and feel.

That could mean his directorial career could suffer due to the increased expectations as well. Maybe he ends up directing TV episodes for Desilu if he gets no offers to direct other films?

That's certainly a possibility. He'd probably wind up being a TV director in general, as opposed to working for a certain studio. For example, though I haven't mentioned his behind-the-camera career in a while, Leonard Nimoy has gone on to become quite a prominent name in sitcom direction, on par with John Rich or James Burrows.

The idea of an American horror genre with a more European sensibility is interesting, and has me thinking about how what became the slasher sub-genre in OTL may develop ITTL. Perhaps an American filmmaker (De Palma ?) ends up making a successful film that basically rips off the giallo genre, causing slashers ITTL to develop into a genre more similar in some ways to their Italian cousins?

An excellent suggestion! And the perfect filmmaker to lead the way, too - De Palma is notoriously derivative (arguably the Quentin Tarantino of his day).

 

[Clorox23]

You do realize that even if I cancel it, Doctor Who will still have been on the air for over twenty years, right? That is a prodigiously long run, both by British standards and by American ones (excluding soap operas, of course). Whereas Star Trek only ran for three seasons and 79 episodes - which, if it had been any other show at the time, would not even have been enough for a successful syndication run? If I cancel Doctor Who, it will come back, as it did IOTL... just not before 1986

I'm not against seeing it get cancelled, mind you. After all, that's kind of unrealistic to not see Doctor Who get cancelled... I'm just weary of seeing it happen in the 80s. Again. The 80s and Doctor Who haven't been the best of buds, even ITTL if NCW8's comment means anything. So... just think about it...

 

[CobiWann]

An excellent suggestion! And the perfect filmmaker to lead the way, too - De Palma is notoriously derivative (arguably the Quentin Tarantino of his day).

I like this idea. Horror is one of those genre that always makes a studio money (New Line was called "The House that Freddy Built" for a long time) and a studio struggling for a hit might rely on a stream of lower-budget movies to tide them over.

Maybe you'd have the more intellectual style horror like Bogondovich doing "The Exorcist," de Palma doing stuff along the lines of Hitchcock...dare I say, maybe the horror genre is where Robert Altman ends up?

Since "Night of the Living Dead" came out in 1968 and was already in the can when this TL kicked off, I could see Romero doing "Dawn of the Dead" but focusing more on the electronic and TV distractions inside the mall as opposed to all the consumer goods. I could see a zombie sitting on the floor outside a electronics store watching the "Star Trek" miniseries, enraptured.

 

[OwenM]

I don't think quite all the episodes would still exist - while I think the deal you have here was a couple of months before the first main episodes had their last copies wiped, the Feast of Steven was a filler episode filmed only because they needed something not too relevant to the story on Christmas Day (there was no Christmas special at the time, it was just a regular Saturday episode, and - unbelievably nowadays - it was correctly assumed having an episode of Doctor Who broadcast on Christmas Day would massively decrease its viewership). It wasn't offered even to countries that expressed an interest in The Daleks' Master Plan (none ended up buying it), and I expect was in the bin by New Year. Also, while I doubt it, I suppose some bits may have been deemed inappropriate for family viewing and edited out as in Australia and NZ.
Still paradise compared to OTL (and countless series both OTL and TTL - Doctor Who actually had one of the BEST survival rates even OTL) on that front though, even if it comes at the cost of the drama of Ian Levine arriving to save the first Dalek story with literally hours to spare and all the surprise discoveries, etc.

 

[NCW8]

I'm not against seeing it get cancelled, mind you. After all, that's kind of unrealistic to not see Doctor Who get cancelled... I'm just weary of seeing it happen in the 80s. Again. The 80s and Doctor Who haven't been the best of buds, even ITTL if NCW8's comment means anything. So... just think about it...

Just to be clear - the figure of 10 million Doctor Who viewers I quoted refers to the last three stories of Season 17, broadcast after the ITV strike. Season 18 is a very different story with the viewing figures dropping to around 5 million. This is mainly due to ITV broadcasting Buck Rogers in the 25th Century at the same time - an indication that higher production values could sway a large portion of the Doctor Who audience. Viewing figures for Doctor Who bounced back to 9-10 million for Season 19 (which incidentally was when the show moved from its Saturday evening slot to bi-weekly broadcasts on Monday and Tuesday evenings).


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[NCW8]

You do realize that even if I cancel it, Doctor Who will still have been on the air for over twenty years, right? That is a prodigiously long run, both by British standards and by American ones (excluding soap operas, of course).

It would be a bit difficult to organise a letter writing campaign with a text on the lines of "It's only been running for twenty years - it hasn't had time to reach its full potential" !

Yes, that was UFO: 1999, but since Space: 1999 rose out of its ashes I conflated the two. As far as UFO's success stateside, it did quite well - easily the best-performing of those shows crossing the pond in the wake of Doctor Who. It aired in network primetime, and did so well that its star, Michael Billington, was chosen to play James Bond because his American name recognition was deemed sufficiently strong. After that, it ran one more season, ratings tanked, and it was cancelled - basically, the exact same thing that happened to The Avengers after Diana Rigg left (also to star in a James Bond movie). But Lew Grade was involved, all the same.

Thanks for the reminder. Still, I don't think that Lew Grade would just sit back and bask in former glory.

A most intriguing analysis. I shall have to bear that in mind as I finish sketching out the rest of my timeline. Thanks for your input!

You're welcome !

The effects of the ITV Strike shouldn't be underestimated. For a start, apart from losing 10 weeks of broadcasting, they also lost the new content that would have been filmed at that time. It took a couple of months after the strike for the ITV schedule to get back to normal. In addition the ITV companies lost about GBP 100 million in revenue.

At the end of the Seventies, the BBC was lagging behind ITV generally in viewing figures. The ITV strike helped the BBC catch up. As you've noted previously, it was about this time that the BBC moved a little down-market to capture a larger share of the audience.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Daibhid C]

It would certainly be possible for stories of this type to be written, or at least for authors to share this attitude: "The novel changes fantasy tropes and archetypes, such as elves and dragons, for which critic John Clute labeled the book an 'anti-fantasy.' Swanwick admits having written it both as a homage to J.R.R. Tolkien and in reaction to a handful of writers he claims exploit Tolkien's milieu and the readers' imaginations with derivative, commercial fantasy". Even IOTL, the glut of "Tolkienesque" fantasy novels is a problem, as noted on TV Tropes: "In The Lord of the Rings, Mordor has a lot of fertile areas thanks to all that volcanic ash, the characters speak a wide variety of archaic accents and dialects, and victory is achieved through rejection of power. In the many books and films written 'in the style of' Tolkien, their Mordor looks like Hell, characters speak Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe, and victory is achieved through force of arms." There seems to be ample room for meta-critique there..

Somewhere between Swanwick and Discworld played relatively straight, maybe?

At the end of the Seventies, the BBC was lagging behind ITV generally in viewing figures. The ITV strike helped the BBC catch up. As you've noted previously, it was about this time that the BBC moved a little down-market to capture a larger share of the audience.

I think there's two questions about how agressively the BBC is going to be pursuing viewing figures in the eighties.

1) Is Michael Grade involved?

2) In the absence of Thatcherism, will he insist on treating a public service broadcaster like a marketplace?

 

[Thande]

It would certainly be possible for stories of this type to be written, or at least for authors to share this attitude: "The novel changes fantasy tropes and archetypes, such as elves and dragons, for which critic John Clute labeled the book an 'anti-fantasy.' Swanwick admits having written it both as a homage to J.R.R. Tolkien and in reaction to a handful of writers he claims exploit Tolkien's milieu and the readers' imaginations with derivative, commercial fantasy". Even IOTL, the glut of "Tolkienesque" fantasy novels is a problem, as noted on TV Tropes: "In The Lord of the Rings, Mordor has a lot of fertile areas thanks to all that volcanic ash, the characters speak a wide variety of archaic accents and dialects, and victory is achieved through rejection of power. In the many books and films written 'in the style of' Tolkien, their Mordor looks like Hell, characters speak Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe, and victory is achieved through force of arms." There seems to be ample room for meta-critique there.

As an aside to this, I've noticed while re-reading LOTR that a lot of our images of places, especially Mordor, are deeply influenced by depictions in artwork (which mostly informed the Peter Jackson films, which in turn fixed those images in the minds of a wider audience). Tolkien's own picture of the Dark Tower in Mordor makes it look more like an industrial brick tower from Lancashire (only exaggerated) sitting in a stony desolate gravel-strewn grey wasteland, not a black volcanic hell. Bits of Mordor seem to be like that from his descriptions (look at Mount Doom in the background), but not all of it, and that's just Gorgoroth, never mind the fertile lands of Nurn in southeastern Mordor that the tvtropes quote alludes to.

 

[NCW8]

Somewhere between Swanwick and Discworld played relatively straight, maybe?

Mind you, Terry Pratchett himself has said that Diskworld was a reaction to books written by the people who were influenced by the people who were influenced by the people who were influenced by Tolkien (I may have missed a couple of "influenced by" in there).

I think there's two questions about how agressively the BBC is going to be pursuing viewing figures in the eighties.

1) Is Michael Grade involved?

2) In the absence of Thatcherism, will he insist on treating a public service broadcaster like a marketplace?

Good points. Another factor is what ITV are doing. IOTL ITV were actually moving up market at about this time, so ITV and BBC were invading each others territory.

While the BBC wasn't reliant on income from advertising, discussions about increasing the license fee could be strained if viewing figures dropped too low.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[drakensis]

Mind you, Terry Pratchett himself has said that Diskworld was a reaction to books written by the people who were influenced by the people who were influenced by the people who were influenced by Tolkien (I may have missed a couple of "influenced by" in there).

Terry Pratchett's influences are almost always interesting. Particularly The Carpet People, a collaberation between Terry Pratchett (age 23) and Terry Pratchett (age 44). There's probably a dissertation in comparing the 1971 version with that written in 1992.

 

[Brainbin]

I'm not against seeing it get cancelled, mind you. After all, that's kind of unrealistic to not see Doctor Who get cancelled... I'm just weary of seeing it happen in the 80s. Again. The 80s and Doctor Who haven't been the best of buds, even ITTL if NCW8's comment means anything. So... just think about it...

Well, the 1980s were a ten-year period, and Doctor Who appeared to have sufficient momentum to keep running all through the 1970s - the strike which gave it a new lease on life was in 1979. Therefore, cancellation in the 1980s is very likely - there are simply too many factors favouring such an outcome (and remember, it happened twice IOTL).

I like this idea. Horror is one of those genre that always makes a studio money (New Line was called "The House that Freddy Built" for a long time) and a studio struggling for a hit might rely on a stream of lower-budget movies to tide them over.

A studio nicknamed "The House that X Built"? What a concept! (Yes, New Line is in fact the place where I got the idea.)

Maybe you'd have the more intellectual style horror like Bogondovich doing "The Exorcist," de Palma doing stuff along the lines of Hitchcock...dare I say, maybe the horror genre is where Robert Altman ends up?

An intriguing suggestion. Altman was certainly enough of a genre-hopper IOTL. And it would have to be something micro-budgeted after the fiasco that was M*A*S*H...

Since "Night of the Living Dead" came out in 1968 and was already in the can when this TL kicked off, I could see Romero doing "Dawn of the Dead" but focusing more on the electronic and TV distractions inside the mall as opposed to all the consumer goods. I could see a zombie sitting on the floor outside a electronics store watching the "Star Trek" miniseries, enraptured.

Or perhaps an episode of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood

I don't think quite all the episodes would still exist - while I think the deal you have here was a couple of months before the first main episodes had their last copies wiped, the Feast of Steven was a filler episode filmed only because they needed something not too relevant to the story on Christmas Day (there was no Christmas special at the time, it was just a regular Saturday episode, and - unbelievably nowadays - it was correctly assumed having an episode of Doctor Who broadcast on Christmas Day would massively decrease its viewership). It wasn't offered even to countries that expressed an interest in The Daleks' Master Plan (none ended up buying it), and I expect was in the bin by New Year. Also, while I doubt it, I suppose some bits may have been deemed inappropriate for family viewing and edited out as in Australia and NZ.

It does appear that "The Feast of Steven" was totally wiped in mid-1967 (it wasn't even preserved on film, though all of the other episodes were until the early-1970s), long before Desilu would be in any position to save it. Therefore, "The Feast of Steven" is considered the "lost episode" of Doctor Who ITTL.

It would be a bit difficult to organise a letter writing campaign with a text on the lines of "It's only been running for twenty years - it hasn't had time to reach its full potential"!

And this is probably why the show was allowed to lay to rest IOTL - it had been running for a quarter-century and was out of gas - or petrol

Thanks for the reminder. Still, I don't think that Lew Grade would just sit back and bask in former glory.

Perhaps not, but there's certainly no guarantee that his later attempts at breaking into the American market will be successful.

At the end of the Seventies, the BBC was lagging behind ITV generally in viewing figures. The ITV strike helped the BBC catch up. As you've noted previously, it was about this time that the BBC moved a little down-market to capture a larger share of the audience.

Ah, so by your reckoning, the lack of a reprieve provided by the ITV Strike might motivate the BBC to move downmarket more quickly and aggressively than they did IOTL?

I think there's two questions about how agressively the BBC is going to be pursuing viewing figures in the eighties.

1) Is Michael Grade involved?

2) In the absence of Thatcherism, will he insist on treating a public service broadcaster like a marketplace?

It's pretty easy to butterfly Michael Grade's career, actually - he did a lot of job-hopping between 1966 and 1984. He could have stayed put at just about any of the positions he held in that eighteen-year interim, or seen any one of them branch out into totally different opportunities. It might just spare him the wrath of Her Majesty!

As an aside to this, I've noticed while re-reading LOTR that a lot of our images of places, especially Mordor, are deeply influenced by depictions in artwork (which mostly informed the Peter Jackson films, which in turn fixed those images in the minds of a wider audience). Tolkien's own picture of the Dark Tower in Mordor makes it look more like an industrial brick tower from Lancashire (only exaggerated) sitting in a stony desolate gravel-strewn grey wasteland, not a black volcanic hell. Bits of Mordor seem to be like that from his descriptions (look at Mount Doom in the background), but not all of it, and that's just Gorgoroth, never mind the fertile lands of Nurn in southeastern Mordor that the tvtropes quote alludes to.

It does look very Victorian/Edwardian industrial, which is not surprising considering how much Tolkien despised industrialization. But at the same time, it's not cartoonishly ominous - in fact, there's a certain charm and character to its gloomy austerity. And as for the gravel - well, the UK does have plenty of quarries

Somewhere between Swanwick and Discworld played relatively straight, maybe?

Mind you, Terry Pratchett himself has said that Diskworld was a reaction to books written by the people who were influenced by the people who were influenced by the people who were influenced by Tolkien (I may have missed a couple of "influenced by" in there).

Terry Pratchett's influences are almost always interesting. Particularly The Carpet People, a collaberation between Terry Pratchett (age 23) and Terry Pratchett (age 44). There's probably a dissertation in comparing the 1971 version with that written in 1992.

And now we've reached on one of the axioms of the internet: as the length of a discussion increases, the probability of Discworld and/or Terry Pratchett being mentioned approaches one. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with that work in general, nor his works in particular, so I won't pick up on any of your references.

As penance, I do intend to get back to work on actually updating this timeline, and plan on forging ahead on my next update, on the elections of 1982!

 

[NCW8]

Ah, so by your reckoning, the lack of a reprieve provided by the ITV Strike might motivate the BBC to move downmarket more quickly and aggressively than they did IOTL?

It does depend upon other factors, as Daibhid C pointed out, but yes, I do think that would happen.

And now we've reached on one of the axioms of the internet: as the length of a discussion increases, the probability of Discworld and/or Terry Pratchett being mentioned approaches one. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with that work in general, nor his works in particular, so I won't pick up on any of your references.

So the Godwin's Law of popular culture discussions.

Up until the early Eighties, Pratchett's career is probably not too different to OTL. He seems to have written his books as a diversion from his main jobs as journalist and press officer. How things go after 1983 might depend upon what has happened to Douglas Adams ITTL. IOTL, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy was popular outside the normal readership of SF novels. After reading it, many people looked around for something similar and found the first couple of Discworld books. That gave a boost to Pratchett's audience that eventually allowed him to give up the day job.


Cheers,
Nigel.