I always thought that was light blue and yellow, but I suppose I might be thinking of older flag books that were vaguer on the colours. Anyway I think dark blue and gold is a fairly neutral colour combination as opposed to red white and blue (Britain, France, Netherlands, etc.) or black gold and red (Germany, Belgium)--when you're doing a supranational association with many members you don't want it to look more like one country's flag than another's.
It seems to still be a bit inconsistent (the English Wikipedia page seems to settle on calling it yellow/gold), though the intent was likely that it was gold (it seems to be derived from three crowns).
Of course, it probably won't be an issue for this Commonwealth flag in any case - Sweden isn't a Commonwealth member, isn't likely to become a Commonwealth member, its colonial history with a member state was centuries back and fairly minor, it's a minor nation in the modern day, and it is a neutral nation (well, it claims to be and makes a minor effort to make it appear to be so, at least).
 
I always thought that was light blue and yellow, but I suppose I might be thinking of older flag books that were vaguer on the colours. Anyway I think dark blue and gold is a fairly neutral colour combination as opposed to red white and blue (Britain, France, Netherlands, etc.) or black gold and red (Germany, Belgium)--when you're doing a supranational association with many members you don't want it to look more like one country's flag than another's.

The confusion probably comes from heraldry, where the colours yellow and white are usually referred to as gold and silver.

Well I think yours looks better--I really like how it subtly evokes the Union Jack--I'm just thinking of the RL considerations that mean that a lot of real life flags look worse than the ones we create on here ;) Something like a Commonwealth flag is generally going to be designed by committee, and we all know what that means.

The number of stars on the EU flag is a good example of that. The flag was originally adopted by the Council of Europe, which at that time had fifteen members (including Saarland as a separate member). The original design had fifteen stars - one for each member country. However, West Germany objected to that, as it implied that Saarland was an independent country. Similarly, France objected to having fourteen stars on the flag as it implied that Saarland couldn't be independant. As thirteen stars was considered unlucky, they finally compromised on twelve.


Cheers,
Nigel.
 
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I bow to those who have a greater knowledge of Doctor Who history than myself to answer that one, but ITTL, the Master is part of the crossover because he was planned as the primary villain, and introducing him in the "gateway" episode to attract American audiences simply makes the most sense.

Well ITTL, the Doctor gets partial control of his Tardis a little earlier than IOTL (at the start of Season 8 instead of half way through) and the larger budget should allow more stories to be set away from Earth. Also IOTL, a Timelord came to warn the Doctor about the arrival of the Master in Terror of the Autons and the Timelords sent the Doctor after the Master in Colony in Space because the Master had stolen some top secret files from Galifrey.

ITTL, this idea could be expanded. The Master could have stolen a number of secrets from Galifrey and the Timelord Celestial Intervention Agency could send the Doctor on various missions to stop him from using the stolen information. The result would be more off-Earth stories - as you said, The Daemons would probably not be made in this case.

Cheers,
Nigel.
 
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The number of stars on the EU flag is a good example of that. The flag was originally adopted by the Council of Europe, which at that time had fifteen members (including Saarland as a separate member). The original design had fifteen stars - one for each member country. However, West Germany objected to that, as it implied that Saarland was an independent country. For the same reason, France objected to having fourteen stars on the flag. As thirteen stars was considered unlucky, they finally compromised on twelve.


Cheers,
Nigel.

I believe France's objection was that 14 stars would imply that Saarland wasn't (and wouldn't possibly become) and independent country.
 
While I love that Commonwealth Flag I have to agree with Thande that they'll not go with it on the basis that it is too British for India etal.

Perhaps a variation with gold* globe and points on blue?


Re gold v yellow etc. In heraldry the exact shades used were not specified and tended to be whatever the artist had available. It's only later once flags became more popular and known that specific shades tended to be preferred and differentiation set in
 
While I love that Commonwealth Flag I have to agree with Thande that they'll not go with it on the basis that it is too British for India etal.

Perhaps a variation with gold* globe and points on blue?

Won't that be too close to the actual flag of the Commonwealth ?

Cheers,
Nigel.

COMN0001.gif
 

Thande

Donor
The number of stars on the EU flag is a good example of that. The flag was originally adopted by the Council of Europe, which at that time had fifteen members (including Saarland as a separate member). The original design had fifteen stars - one for each member country. However, West Germany objected to that, as it implied that Saarland was an independent country. Similarly, France objected to having fourteen stars on the flag as it implied that Saarland couldn't be independant. As thirteen stars was considered unlucky, they finally compromised on twelve.

Which, of course, promptly started all the conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church running the Council of Europe/EEC/EU because it looks like the halo the Virgin Mary is sometimes given in Catholic iconography.
You can't win, can you?

mary3C.jpg
 
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It's a good striking flag but I imagine it would cause a kerfuffle in Africa, India et al because of how explicitly Union Jack-inspired it is. The red-white-blue roundel design, as you say, is shared by the UK and all the former 'white dominions' (and before WW2, by the USA as well!) but not in other Commonwealth countries where the red, white and blue is associated with the Empire/colonial period. That may, of course, simply say something about how differently the Commonwealth is viewed in TTL.
Well, unfortunately, it does seem as though a consensus has emerged on that front - however, I am gratified that you all appreciated the aesthetics of the original design. We've decided to bow to popular demand, because the last thing any socially-conscious post-colonial organization would ever want to do is offend anyone.

Something like these might work better for not pissing off Commonwealth leaders who started out as anti-colonial fighters; to clarify I think your design looks better, I just think it might be too controversial.
We decided against the two-colour design because it turns the negative space of the white/gold circle into positive space, and the radiating globe into negative space.

Well I think yours looks better--I really like how it subtly evokes the Union Jack--I'm just thinking of the RL considerations that mean that a lot of real life flags look worse than the ones we create on here ;) Something like a Commonwealth flag is generally going to be designed by committee, and we all know what that means.
One gentle reminder, and I do know what you meant to say here, but you want to avoid pronoun trouble - e of pi co-designed it, not Lindseyman ;)

The number of stars on the EU flag is a good example of that. The flag was originally adopted by the Council of Europe, which at that time had fifteen members (including Saarland as a separate member). The original design had fifteen stars - one for each member country. However, West Germany objected to that, as it implied that Saarland was an independent country. Similarly, France objected to having fourteen stars on the flag as it implied that Saarland couldn't be independant. As thirteen stars was considered unlucky, they finally compromised on twelve.
Yes, we encountered that scintillating tidbit as we were devising the Commonwealth flag. It's rather... typical, isn't it? :p

The compass points could be similar to NATO. (Hmmmm...could Britain be thinking of getting out?)
Britain is definitely not withdrawing from NATO, under any circumstances. They aren't France, after all! :eek:

While I love that Commonwealth Flag I have to agree with Thande that they'll not go with it on the basis that it is too British for India etal.

Perhaps a variation with gold* globe and points on blue?
As previously mentioned, we did test the logo without the white circle, but it looked more like a bank (much like the OTL logo does) instead of a supranational organization.

However, we did end up using gold/yellow, as I will demonstrate to all of you now (thanks again to nixonshead for the colour tweaking)...

12309404474_7c872a557e_o.png


We mulled over this one for a while, until coming up with something we accepted, if not loved (as we did the original red version). What do you all think?
 
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Fully understand the rationale behind your altered design but it would never be accepted as it breaks the "rules" of heraldry. You are not supposed to have Gold and Silver next to each other (yellow and white in this case).
(and I certainly didn't design this commonwealths logo just had an input on anothers!)
 

Thande

Donor
However, we did end up using gold/yellow, as I will demonstrate to all of you now...


We mulled over this one for a while, until coming up with something we accepted, if not loved (as we did the original red version). What do you all think?
I think it looks good. The dark gold looks similar to orange, but I doubt that's going to be an issue (doubtless some conspiracy theories about apartheid South Africa, but nowhere near as significant as what a red white and blue one would produce).

Fully understand the rationale behind your altered design but it would never be accepted as it breaks the "rules" of heraldry. You are not supposed to have Gold and Silver next to each other (yellow and white in this case).
(and I certainly didn't design this commonwealths logo just had an input on anothers!)
Apologies for my mistake in who designed this. While you are correct, this 'rule' is actually broken fairly often nowadays. Traditionally there were two exceptions: the flag of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem and the flag of the Papal States after the Napoleonic Wars. Both of which are sometimes described as being exceptions because they were ecclesiastical states and thus transcended the petty rules of the temporal earth, or words to that effect. So 1) The Commonwealth could argue that as a supranational entity it could lay claim to the same idea. 2) The shade in question is probably dark enough not to qualify as heraldic or, though the Germans might disagree. 3) And, of course, it is designed by committee ;)

The alternative might be to thinly outline all the gold components in blue, but that probably wouldn't look too good and IMO would have the RL consideration of being difficult to manufacture as a flag.
 
While you are correct, this 'rule' is actually broken fairly often nowadays. Traditionally there were two exceptions: the flag of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem and the flag of the Papal States after the Napoleonic Wars. Both of which are sometimes described as being exceptions because they were ecclesiastical states and thus transcended the petty rules of the temporal earth, or words to that effect.

Also, off the top of my head Cyprus is another example of such rule-breaking, without the divine mandate of a holy state. Apparently, they call the colour "Copper", in reference to the country's copper deposits, so maybe that's their heraldry get-out. Perhaps if we claim the Commonwealth flag uses "Saffron" rather than gold we can get away with it :p (It should please India at least, though they actually use 'Deep Saffron'. Another example of 'yellow/orange' next to white.)

In fact I've just checked the graphic, and it seems the colour in the flag is already hex ffc600, very close to the #F4C430 quoted on Wiki for Saffron. I did a quick fill of the colour, and to be honest I can't see the difference:

cw_flag_saffron.png
 
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Thande

Donor
Also, off the top of my head Cyprus is another example of such rule-breaking, without the divine mandate of a holy state. Apparently, they call the colour "Copper", in reference to the country's copper deposits, so maybe that's their heraldry get-out. Perhaps if we claim the Commonwealth flag uses "Saffron" rather than gold we can get away with it :p (It should please India at least, though they actually use 'Deep Saffron'. Another example of 'yellow/orange' next to white.)

In fact I've just checked the graphic, and it seems the colour in the flag is already hex ffc600, very close to the #F4C430 quoted on Wiki for Saffron. I did a quick fill of the colour, and to be honest I can't see the difference:
Very nifty idea! I like that. Sri Lanka & co. obviously use it as well. Pakistan and co. might complain there's saffron and no green I suppose (but you can't wedge that in as well without destroying the simplicity of the design). Overall I think it works very well.
 
In fact I've just checked the graphic, and it seems the colour in the flag is already hex ffc600, very close to the #F4C430 quoted on Wiki for Saffron. I did a quick fill of the colour, and to be honest I can't see the difference:

Four of the squares on the lower half of the globe are a different colour from the others (the yellow is deeper).
 
Just so you're not taking my word for it, a comparison...

TWR_Flag1.png


TWR_Flag2.png


The difference is subtle, but it's there.
Still enjoying the timeline, by the way. The updated Enterprise design was particularly good (though I'm glad you didn't go with the 'all-blue' version - just doesn't look right somehow).
 
I begin this post with a special announcement: That Wacky Redhead has won the Turtledove Award for Best Continuing Character, which was awarded to... That Wacky Redhead! She and I thank you all for your votes. Special thanks must also go out to Asharella for nominating her in the first place :)

Fully understand the rationale behind your altered design but it would never be accepted as it breaks the "rules" of heraldry. You are not supposed to have Gold and Silver next to each other (yellow and white in this case).
Thande and nixonshead both covered most of my planned responses here - in short, supranational organizations are not bound by the laws of heraldry, especially since, as mentioned, a Commonwealth member state (Cyprus) is already violating them. Fun fact: the standard flag of ancien regime France also violates the rules of heraldry.

800px-Pavillon_royal_de_France.svg.png


I think it looks good. The dark gold looks similar to orange, but I doubt that's going to be an issue (doubtless some conspiracy theories about apartheid South Africa, but nowhere near as significant as what a red white and blue one would produce).
Thank you. I can accept this colour, although I would have preferred red, and I'll project that sentiment onto the committee ;)

In fact I've just checked the graphic, and it seems the colour in the flag is already hex ffc600, very close to the #F4C430 quoted on Wiki for Saffron. I did a quick fill of the colour, and to be honest I can't see the difference
I think we can officially consider "saffron" to be the term for the "yellow-ish" colour in the flag :)

Very nifty idea! I like that. Sri Lanka & co. obviously use it as well. Pakistan and co. might complain there's saffron and no green I suppose (but you can't wedge that in as well without destroying the simplicity of the design). Overall I think it works very well.
Of course, one might remind Pakistan that green is the colour of Islam (which is why it's in their flag), and that the Commonwealth is multiconfessional.

Just so you're not taking my word for it, a comparison...
To be honest, I couldn't see it, but e of pi could, and he informs me that the top image is the "corrected" saffron version. Thank you for catching that!

The Storyteller said:
Still enjoying the timeline, by the way.
Thank you very much, and may I take this opportunity to formally welcome you aboard! :)

The Storyteller said:
The updated Enterprise design was particularly good (though I'm glad you didn't go with the 'all-blue' version - just doesn't look right somehow).
I know exactly what you mean - even though I pushed for it, once I saw it, I just couldn't go ahead with it. I'm glad you like the design we did use, though.
 
Ooh, that works. And I think they can get away with that break of the heraldric rules.

I shall strenuously avoid requesting the compass points be adjusted to go through the poles by virtue of: "yes I know they're offpole but we've just got through the 'it's Saffron' argument with India! Do you want to go through that again?" :p
 
...

Thande and nixonshead both covered most of my planned responses here - in short, supranational organizations are not bound by the laws of heraldry, especially since, as mentioned, a Commonwealth member state (Cyprus) is already violating them. Fun fact: the standard flag of ancien regime France also violates the rules of heraldry.
Not only it. The List of Flags violating the rules of heraldry is long, because every flag in which two colours or two metals are put together are violating these rules. Some examples from Europe: Germany, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lichtenstein, Lithuania, Portugal, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic and Vatican City (but in this case it is no violation because of the Pope).
 
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