That Wacky Redhead

[stevep]

As to the Doctor's enemies, I'm not sure what "condiments on steroids" refers to, but if it's what I think it sounds like, hokey looking aliens, that might cause some to feel that Doctor Who belongs in the "campy" category a la the latter part of Lost In Space witht heir weird alients. (I have this image, one of few of the seres, of thsi alien that looked like a guy ina tux but his head looked like an orange!)

DTF955Baseballfan

Sorry, the Daleks are often referred to as pepper-pots and I was making a play on that.

Steve

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

DTF955Baseballfan

Sorry, the Daleks are often referred to as pepper-pots and I was making a play on that.

Steve

Ah, I see, thanks for the explanation.

Still, the reference to serials and cliffhangers holds true, it hink, as far as how they could sell it, sort of a nostalgia thing. Maybe morethe Flash Gordon comics type though.

 

[Glen]

They Doctor Who episodes do tend to end on cliffhangers.

Doctor Who worked on a ludicrously low budget - everyone should be lauding how good the special effects are FOR THE MONEY! However, American audiences are not going to care about that, agree. If the BBC wants to see Doctor Who succeed as a follow-on act in the US as a replacement for Star Trek, they are going to have to invest in its production. In fact, I suspect that both Desilu and NBC might insist on some level of increased budget so they can have a saleable product.

 

[Glen]

They Doctor Who episodes do tend to end on cliffhangers.

Doctor Who worked on a ludicrously low budget - everyone should be lauding how good the special effects are FOR THE MONEY! However, American audiences are not going to care about that, agree. If the BBC wants to see Doctor Who succeed as a follow-on act in the US as a replacement for Star Trek, they are going to have to invest in its production. In fact, I suspect that both Desilu and NBC might insist on some level of increased budget so they can have a saleable product.

People have talked about how important 2001 is in terms of quality and special effects, but Doctor Who has links to that as well....

"Doctor Who - The Key To Time", by Peter Haining.
Here is the entry dated December 11, 1965 (remember, this was the time when production of "2001: A Space Odyssey" was getting into gear).

"The 'Counter-Plot' episode of the epic 'The Daleks' Master Plan' is screened. A few days later producer John Wiles receives a phonecall from MGM's studios at Borehamwood, North London, where Stanley Kubrick's new film, 2001: A Space Odyssey, is in production. Having watched some of the previous week's episodes, the Visual Effects team, headed by Wally Weevers and Douglas Trumbull, are intrigued by the Doctor Who crew's achievements... both in the illusion of weightlessness - as seen with the death of Katarina in episode four - and in matter transportation, demonstrated when the Doctor, Sara and Steven are projected to the planet Mira. Giving credit to director Douglas Camfield, Wiles explains that the space- travel scenes were accomplished by techniques involving the use of special transparencies and video-effects generators, and that the weightless shots were done simply by aiming a camera vertically upwards at an actress suspended immediately above by a wire from the studio ceiling. Curiously enough, when 2001 is eventually released in 1967, permutations of those same techniques, pioneered by Camfield in Doctor Who, are clearly in evidence."

...the favour returned...

This entry from the Doctor Who book (see above) appears for December 15, 1973 (well after the release of 2001).

"A new season of Doctor Who...introduces...a new set of title graphics, again designed and executed by graphics specialist Bernard Lodge but this time using rostrum camera animation for the 'time tunnel' background...Lodge confesses to being influenced by Douglas Trumbull's 'Star Gate' effects in 2001, and to using the same technique to create the patterns which swirl out of nowhere and past the camera for the Doctor Who titles."

 

[Glen]

People have talked about how important 2001 is in terms of quality and special effects, but Doctor Who has links to that as well....

"Doctor Who - The Key To Time", by Peter Haining.
Here is the entry dated December 11, 1965 (remember, this was the time when production of "2001: A Space Odyssey" was getting into gear).

"The 'Counter-Plot' episode of the epic 'The Daleks' Master Plan' is screened. A few days later producer John Wiles receives a phonecall from MGM's studios at Borehamwood, North London, where Stanley Kubrick's new film, 2001: A Space Odyssey, is in production. Having watched some of the previous week's episodes, the Visual Effects team, headed by Wally Weevers and Douglas Trumbull, are intrigued by the Doctor Who crew's achievements... both in the illusion of weightlessness - as seen with the death of Katarina in episode four - and in matter transportation, demonstrated when the Doctor, Sara and Steven are projected to the planet Mira. Giving credit to director Douglas Camfield, Wiles explains that the space- travel scenes were accomplished by techniques involving the use of special transparencies and video-effects generators, and that the weightless shots were done simply by aiming a camera vertically upwards at an actress suspended immediately above by a wire from the studio ceiling. Curiously enough, when 2001 is eventually released in 1967, permutations of those same techniques, pioneered by Camfield in Doctor Who, are clearly in evidence."

...the favour returned...

This entry from the Doctor Who book (see above) appears for December 15, 1973 (well after the release of 2001).

"A new season of Doctor Who...introduces...a new set of title graphics, again designed and executed by graphics specialist Bernard Lodge but this time using rostrum camera animation for the 'time tunnel' background...Lodge confesses to being influenced by Douglas Trumbull's 'Star Gate' effects in 2001, and to using the same technique to create the patterns which swirl out of nowhere and past the camera for the Doctor Who titles."

Another example -

"In the early 1970s, the BBC special effects department on Doctor Who pioneered a new technique that would revolutionise the film and tv special effects industry. They called it Colour Separation Overlay, or CSO for short. It was a fairly straight forward technique of replacing one colour in the television signal with the signal from another camera. So one camera would film an actor standing in front of a yellow background and another camera would film another scene. When the signals were added, everything yellow in the signal was replaced by the image from the second camera. It looked like the actor was somewhere else entirely. Brilliant. (These days the technique is often referred to as chromakey or blue-screen, since the colour chosen is often blue.)"

 

[Brainbin]

So many questions, still left unanswered... So much, I've never broken through.

I love this. Such a funny image.

Thank you, e of pi, and welcome aboard! This really strikes me as something random and in-jokey in that oh-so-British way.

That must explain why I found "The Sweeney" & "The Professionals" so enjoyable. I do think you're right about the suits.

You're Canadian, not American

I never got the sense Kirk thought Darvin was malevolent. Stupid, incompetent, meddling, extremely irritating, but not malevolent.

No, he didn't find Darvin malevolent. He found Trelane malevolent. Hence why I said that the Doctor is a cross between them

Suspicion, given his encounters with powerful aliens masquerading as helpful, would not surprise me at all.

There's the rub. Kirk (not to mention his American viewers) is so accustomed to evil or at least incredibly chaotic aliens that the Doctor being genuinely good subverts his expectations. So perhaps he's a little overly cautious around the Doctor from the beginning.

Fair enough. I only wonder if you don't get the same problem as for "A:E": making the stars of one show effectively guest stars in their own show.

No, the crossover is strongly Enterprise-centric. If anything, the opposite is true: we see relatively little of the Doctor (we probably see more of Linda than of him). However, this is more in keeping with the mysterious, enigmatic nature of the character. (And, like I said, British audiences are familiar with the crew of the Enterprise. It's not as if these are a bunch of strangers.)

But, but, but... That was half the attraction to the younger fan-base of the Doctor. Don't forget in the 70's & 80's it was basically a children's programme. I started watching when I was about 6 and lost interest by my mid teens despite the long fascination with the series. The post 2000 series is far more directed at an adult audience.

Well, one thing to remember is that, in the United States, television is expected to be family-friendly (though this is rapidly changing), and Star Trek does indeed have a very large child audience. To be sure, the show is more action-oriented than Doctor Who, but it's a very old-fashioned, whiz-bang movie serial kind of action, with legendarily awful fight choreography. And of course, once the reins are handed back to the producers of Doctor Who, their inclination to drive children behind the sofa should come back full force.

If Roberta could provide some useful talents that would also make for a good reason to keep her connected with the Doctor. [The last companion before the exile to Earth had been a mathematical genius for instance]. And preferably also a strong independent character.

I definitely see Linda as being partly inspired by the last female lead from a British series to catch on in America: Emma Peel. She'll be toned down somewhat from Mrs Peel, certainly less overtly sexual, and a little less super-capable, as they'll want to create an American "everywoman". But there won't be any romance between her and the Doctor; she'll be an independent, intelligent, and spirited woman.

You make them sound like the Spanish Inquisition.

Consider it an early example of Pythonesque humour percolating into mainstream British comedy

You do realise the Time Lords would intervene in force to ensure such a crucial point in the space time continuum.

Hey, I've already killed off "The Brady Bunch" and "M*A*S*H". Why not go for the hat trick?

That could be interesting given what seems to be the difference in the fan base. Possibly I'm getting it wrong as I was about 10-11 at the time but you may need to direct the Doctor towards an older audience.

I'll be devoting a post in the next cycle of updates to how Doctor Who goes over with American audiences. That may help to answer some of your other questions. It's definitely a story that will unfold over time.

However, the serialization reminds me of the old action shorts that would appear in movies , where the original cliffhangers began. Perhaps this would be one way to sell it to the adult audiences. In a time when they weren't demanding all the gore and lust and other things they would later, perhaps it could be sold as a return to the happy days of old. A bit of nostalgia which will show itself later int he making of Happy days set int he '50s.

I think you're on to something here. Doctor Who is undoubtedly going to be seen as "pulpy" when it reaches American shores in its proper form in late 1971... by which time there will be a glut of "pulpy" material available for mass consumption.

On the other hand, sometimes its all int he advertising. Look at some of Dick Tracy's bad guys. What if The Doctor is sold as an outer space Dick Tracy, again, harkening back to the nostalgia of the older Americans' youth, with aliens akin to Flat Top and some of the others, I'm not recalling any others right now. (Too young to recall the comics, but I recall vividly how much fun my grandpa had when I took him to the movie, though I'd forgotten it was 1990 till I looked, I'd thought it earlier.)

Dick Tracy is an interesting comparison, especially since the comic strip did spend a number of years on the Moon in the 1960s, interacting with an advanced race of Moon People (and returning to Earth in the wake of the real-life Moon landing). The comic's flirtation with science-fiction is generally considered a failure, but I think it's an interesting example of the genre's growing popularity at the time.

So, there are ways to sell it while keeping it the same way it was in Britain; it's just going to be tricky.

We'll have to see how everything goes for the good Doctor.

Cracking set of Updates, Brainbin.

Thank you, Falkenburg. Glad you're still reading

(ITTL) Star Trek plays in an entirely different league from Doctor Who (Production values, SFX, Cast, etc).
This will be glaringly obvious when the two series interact.

Very true. But on the crossover itself, it won't be as glaring, because Desilu is handling most aspects of production (excluding the pick-up scenes shot in London). Also, NBC is paying for half (actually more than half, since they're covering all additional expenses beyond the projected budget) of the crossover. In other words, Doctor Who is going to look better than it ever did before.

While there may be some earnings from the US how much of that would the Producers of DW be able to claw back from Aunty?

That would be in the contract between the two networks, that a certain percentage of the proceeds must be re-invested into the continuing production of the program. I imagine that their accountants would have worked this out beforehand.

OTOH, it's always possible that The Doctor won't be a (commercial) success in the US, rendering the point moot.

Only one way to find out about that

Doctor Who worked on a ludicrously low budget - everyone should be lauding how good the special effects are FOR THE MONEY! However, American audiences are not going to care about that, agree. If the BBC wants to see Doctor Who succeed as a follow-on act in the US as a replacement for Star Trek, they are going to have to invest in its production. In fact, I suspect that both Desilu and NBC might insist on some level of increased budget so they can have a saleable product.

And that's exactly what they're doing. And don't forget, also, that Desilu has been contracted to handle most aspects of post-production as part of the syndication deal they signed with the BBC. Doctor Who is going to look and feel much better than it did ITTL, though perhaps not at quite the same level of improvement seen by TTL Star Trek.

People have talked about how important 2001 is in terms of quality and special effects, but Doctor Who has links to that as well....

Thank you for those examples, Glen. It does show us that the producers of Doctor Who have some tricks up their sleeve...

And thank you all for your continuing interest in this timeline! As you may know, the Turtledove Award nominations are currently underway, and That Wacky Redhead has been nominated in the category of Best New Cold War timeline. I'm very flattered and honoured to share the company of my incredibly talented fellow nominees, and I invite you all to vote for the timeline(s) of your choice. Until next time!

 

[stevep]

There's the rub. Kirk (not to mention his American viewers) is so accustomed to evil or at least incredibly chaotic aliens that the Doctor being genuinely good subverts his expectations. So perhaps he's a little overly cautious around the Doctor from the beginning.

Many of the aliens mentioned have been hostile but the UFP is by definition a multi-race organisation, although we only see Spock on a regular basis. So its not an open and shut matter but generally I agree with you.

Hey, I've already killed off "The Brady Bunch" and "M*A*S*H". Why not go for the hat trick?

Their American. The British defensive alliance with the Time Lords doesn't include other cultures.

Steve

 

[Glen]

All right, so let's talk about this wacky crossover idea in which That Wacky Redhead played a substantial part:

Everybody knows that the speed of light is just a helpful guideline

Thank you very much, vultan. And you hit the nail on the head. I wanted to create the impression of a slap-dash, jury-rigged crossover, held together only by the lavish budget, the competence of the writers, directors, and actors, and a lot of elbow grease.

As you later allude to this will be an odd and slapdash episode from the American perspective. Of course the only thing you are leaving off here is time which never was a luxury that Doctor Who episodes had. Therefore I agree this shall be an important but not perfect episodefor Trek but a start of an appetite for higher quality Doctor Who once Brits get a taste of what it can be and the deal with Desilu will give resourses to do just that. Do not get me wrong the budget will not be anything like that for Trek but given the miracles they sometimes pulled off on a shoestring even a little more to work with could really pay off in taking 70' Who to the next level.

They're among very good company indeed

Okay. But before I respond to your comments, point-by-point, I want to make one thing very clear. You are looking at this from the perspective of a fan. Which is fine, but you're not quite seeing the forest for the trees here.

You may wish to avoid ascribing points of view to others my friend. I am a Doctor Who fan and a sci fi fan but not that much of a Trek fan actually. Also while I can see some things from a fan perspective I like to think that need not blind me to the greater picture as I believe some of my other comments show.

There are going to be gaping plot holes, because these two universes can't really fit together. Both sides are going to nitpick the flaws of the end product. All that said...

I have to say that a lot of tv have plot holes but I didn't hear a good reason why the holes would be moreso or more glaring for the crossover. If by both sides you mean fandom then of course that is what many of the fans live for but if you mean the general public or the crews of the two shows I do not think they will be overly bothere by plotholes. Now if Pertwee upstages Shatner...

 

[phx1138]

You're Canadian, not American

No, he didn't find Darvin malevolent. He found Trelane malevolent. Hence why I said that the Doctor is a cross between them

OK, I was misunderstanding somebody somewhere... There was a Darvin ref in there, too.

There's the rub. Kirk (not to mention his American viewers) is so accustomed to evil or at least incredibly chaotic aliens that the Doctor being genuinely good subverts his expectations. So perhaps he's a little overly cautious around the Doctor from the beginning.

And pleasantly surprised at the end?

No, the crossover is strongly Enterprise-centric. If anything, the opposite is true: we see relatively little of the Doctor (we probably see more of Linda than of him). However, this is more in keeping with the mysterious, enigmatic nature of the character. (And, like I said, British audiences are familiar with the crew of the Enterprise. It's not as if these are a bunch of strangers.)

Fair enough. I wasn't for a second going to even hint you change any of it.

television is expected to be family-friendly (though this is rapidly changing)

I wonder if you couldn't butterfly away the change to a more R-rated TV landscape. Need it have happened, outside of the cable or pay networks? That is, is it credible the over-air broadcasters don't do even "NYPD Blue" (much later than current TTL) because it's too raunchy?

...Turtledove Award nominations are currently underway, and That Wacky Redhead has been nominated in the category of Best New Cold War timeline.

There really was only one there worthy of my vote IMO, & this is it. Here's hoping you win it.

 

[stevep]

And thank you all for your continuing interest in this timeline! As you may know, the Turtledove Award nominations are currently underway, and That Wacky Redhead has been nominated in the category of Best New Cold War timeline. I'm very flattered and honoured to share the company of my incredibly talented fellow nominees, and I invite you all to vote for the timeline(s) of your choice. Until next time!

Brainbin

Damn it! Missed that earlier but corrected now. Currently have a one vote lead over the nearest rival, which is the only other one on the list I'm subscribed to.

Steve

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

I wonder if you couldn't butterfly away the change to a more R-rated TV landscape. Need it have happened, outside of the cable or pay networks? That is, is it credible the over-air broadcasters don't do even "NYPD Blue" (much later than current TTL) because it's too raunchy?

I would hope. I haven't watched network TV since the late '90s save for (obviouisly) sports and a few scattered episodes of ER and maybe a few other things. (And hard hardly watched it at all since the early '90s), while I'm much more conservative than some people I am just so turned off by some of TV it's crazy.

I don't even like "All in the Family" anymore, but didn't mind watching repeats of it when little around 3-3:30 in the afternoon. It was a good time to discuss with my mom & grandaprents why people got mad at Archie, why stuff Archie said was mean, etc.; I got some of the message just fromt he fact Archie never seemed to win, from what I recall, but discussing thigns helped, too. But at least it was decent enough it was okay to watch. (I was born in 1969, if you're trying to guess my age.)

So, if I take a break from this thread for a bit it'll be becasue it's getting a little out of my league now, as I came of age with the last bit of MTM as originallya ired, "Welcome Back, Kotter," the 2nd or 3rd season of "Barney Miller," etc.. I wached a number of shows in reruns before (especially original Star Trek), but the shows I recall most will be coming in a few years in the TL.

Then again, I might stay hooked for a while anyway. This is a fun read.

 

[vultan]

Hmm, you think with more success for televised science fiction, the pilot "Earth II" (unrelated to our timeline's 90's show Earth 2) gets picked up as a series?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_II_(TV_pilot)

 

[Glen]

more later

It may not surprise you to learn that this little pun was among the very first things I devised for this post

Okaaay....

You know the old stereotype: if there are no American characters present, then the American audience can't identify with anyone (I doubt the veracity of that, myself, but I don't think that the executives would.)

Fair enough - and I am fine either way with it, and I agree it is something that an exec would likely come up with.

I was thrilled when I hit upon Booth as a candidate, for that very reason. Butterflies are free to fly!

Fair enough, fair enough....With regards to some of the butterflies, looking into it more closely I think it is plausible if not necessary that the Python team do make that trip to Devon where Cleese becomes inspired/obsessed with the role-model for Basil Fawlty. However, I think it equally likely that Booth will not be with him on that trip, instead working on Doctor Who. So I think we get Cleese inspired, but Booth will be less involved in the original idea - don't know how this would impact things yet.

Well, Desilu, the BBC, and NBC are all pushing hard to get both creative teams to play ball. Basically, the Star Trek writing staff throw a bunch of story ideas into the pile, which Coon and Fontana fashion into a script; they then integrate it with Dicks and Holmes' ideas for their original season premiere, with the latter two writing their characters' dialogue, and of course the pick-up scenes.

Just indicating that the writing was very much done by committee on this one. Most Star Trek scripts tend to be one person coming up with the story, and then initial drafts, followed by a polish by Coon, Fontana, and/or Gerrold; here it's the opposite. Everyone throws out ideas, and the three main writers bring them all together into a more-or-less cohesive script.

We talked about this a bit before, but I do think it deserves a bit more thought - given the way the crossover plays out, I would think it would be more likely that Dicks and Holmes bring their basic plot to the attention of the Star Trek writing team, then their writers throw in a bunch of ideas on how to inject 'Trek' into the story, then Fontana does the polishing and further integrating coming up with the final script, with further feedback from Dicks and Holmes. A slight difference, but I think it makes the subsequent story as presented make more sense - it also gives more of a rationale as to why the whole bullpen pitches in to 'Trek out' the Doctor Who treatment rather than having the senior Fontana take the lead from the beginning to provide a script given the purported importance of the cross-over.

Another item to note is we have mentions of 'being made to play nice' - is there actual probelms between the two writing teams? Do we have any reason other than general 'different shows' friction to believe that these two teams wouldn't work together?

Thank you. Hollywood bureaucracy is notoriously cumbersome; expect that both the network and That Wacky Redhead herself would have to go to bat for the British writers at the WGA. Also, the British actors would have to join SAG (or AFTRA, or both).

That too would be a great little detail to add to that update.

It also saved me from having to cast a different actor in the part

Which, believe me, I can appreciate would be some work for you. However, here I think it is pretty clear that there is nothing that has happened ITTL that would be likely to derail the Doctor Who team early on settling on bringing in Delgado for the Master.

However, with the show running in America and in England, might we not see Delgado's premature death butterflied away? He may be getting more job offers for film from America due to his Doctor Who appearances, leading him to not be available to play in the French movie, Bell of Tibet, meaning that he doesn't go to Turkey and die in an auto accident. This would also have significant butterflies for Doctor Who, among them being perhaps a slightly longer tenure playing the Third Doctor for Jon Pertwee, as the death of his friend Delgado helped galvanize his decision to leave the role (I don't think he'd stay much longer, but some, some).

The plot called for a mostly "urban" adventure; therefore, they did not visit Kirk's Rock, alas

Sorry, just had to make reference to the BBC's ubiquitous use of quarries for alien planets.

From what I've read on the subject, the BBC could organize credits pretty much any way they wanted to. And they want to make it seem as if Letts is at least 50% involved in the direction of the crossover. (He's not; just the London-filmed scenes, and consulting with Daniels as they're shooting the American footage. 25% at best.) Daniels, learning of this, is bemused, but not too offended.

Makes sense.

I do indeed, though it breaks one of my taboos of mentioning one of the OTL Star Trek spinoffs, but it's so perfect an example that I'll mention it anyway. Contrast "The Trouble with Tribbles" and "Trials and Tribble-ations". Completely different scores, even over the exact same scenes. I'll give you no-points for guessing which score I prefer, by a country mile. (Hint: it's the one with actual melodies.)

Ah, but that is not the parallel I was thinking of - there you have one show 'inserting' itself into the history of another. Not the same really as having two shows that crossover - actually, the shows I can think of that do this most nowadays are on Disney Channel - but there, the shows tend to play to the same audience - here we are talking about for the Americans a crossover with a show they are unfamiliar with. I just still find the whole thing fascinating in terms of mechanics.

Thank you very much

I'm mentioning the date because the crew of the Enterprise, whenever they went back in time, always made a point of mentioning the year. The only reason that they don't in this case is because the episodes will air in different years in the two primary markets.

Nonetheless, you've just put a major stake in the heart of an OTL fan controversy - congratulations!

A lot of the others seem to have the general idea down; Kirk views the Doctor as a cross between Trelane (to avoid an anachronistic and, ITTL, non-existent reference ) and Arne Darvin. He would find him just a touch malevolent.

Noted, the classic 'good guys think each other suspect' thing....

Agreed. Star Trek is not one to drive its young audience into hiding behind the sofa.

That's my thought as well, as you note.

All right. One and three, then. (I don't see how they're mutually exclusive.) Three will be shown in flashback, as part of the big expository scene in which the Doctor reveals his true nature to the crew of the Enterprise, which is where the TARDIS will come up for the first time. We'll eventually see it (easy enough for the prop department to mock up a TARDIS, or even bring the original along), and Spock and Scotty will investigate (to the confusion of the others, who doubt that three people could even fit inside a craft so tiny). It explains why the Doctor is in the United States, along with the absence of the Brigadier; and it also allows the TARDIS to globe-trot, which the larger budget (larger even than IOTL, courtesy of NBC) will facilitate. As for Linda, yes, she'll be invited along to join the Doctor on his journeys; her whole arc is basically Roberta Lincoln's, with better writing and acting. So there you are. Hope that helps

Fair enough.

I like that a lot. Consider it done.

That's your best idea of all. And in light of your excellent contributions, I hereby award you the No-Prize for Creative Writing!

Y

Why thank you, thank you muchly!

You've captured their reaction perfectly. For this reason, the crossover definitely goes over better in Britain than it does in the United States. It's a massive event over there, and goes on to become a pop culture touchstone. (A popular sketch on variety shows of the era is a "straight" parody of a popular British program suddenly being interrupted by the crew of the Enterprise randomly appearing.)

I love this, BTW! Very apt!

Thank you again. Glad you (mostly) liked it. Although, ironically enough, the whole Doctor Who crossover event was intended as a carrot to British readers, and yet it's an American who has the strongest reaction to it

I've been an Anglophile since I was a child - which is a bit unusual, since no one else in my family was. Watched a lot of British TV on PBS back in the day - be interesting to see how that will work out ITTL....

Technically, yes, so you can expect fan fiction (and later, "expanded universe"-type) writers to take advantage of that.

I also wonder how this will effect the whole 'Peladon' two series story arc, if it gets made, as there they make reference to a 'Galactic Federation' that is suspiciously similar sounding to the one in Star Trek - here, they might just outright use the Federation.

I think I can guarantee that.

Perhaps - assuming that Cleese and his fellow Pythons still find themselves staying at the Gleneagles Hotel in Torquay, c. 1971.

See my comments above.

I would love that - do you know any good candidates for the job?

Not really, sorry!

These are the stations that, IOTL, aired Star Trek in the very early 1970s - back when fans would have to get up at 3:00 AM and tune their antennae to channel 29 or the like, and even their reception was just right, it would still come in terrible. ITTL, Star Trek won't be sold into syndication until the summer of 1971 - obviously into very plum slots on VHF channels with great reception.

Got it! This makes much more sense now.

Fair enough. My description would be more apt of the American audience. British audiences would respond more along the lines you're describing. Obviously, this is the exact opposite reaction to what everyone involved in the crossover actually wanted, but it's still good enough to get Doctor Who on NBC, so in the end it's just a minor quibble.

Fair enough, and yes, it's an interesting inversion of executive expectations.

Hold your horses! We'll have to see how American audiences respond to Doctor Who as a continuing weekly series first!

I think that the show will have large overlap with the Star Trek demographic, really - maybe pick up some more kids and of course the small but loyal Anglophiles lurking in 1970s America.

Really? On all points? He had an awful lot to say... Are you sure the two of you don't share a brain?

Of all the episodes of Star Trek, plot-wise it most strongly resembles "Assignment: Earth", for obvious reasons. (Of all the episodes of Doctor Who, it most strongly resembles "Terror of the Autons").

Duly noted and referenced earlier.

That's the comparison I was trying to make there. But yes, in terms of quality, it's obviously much better than that wretched abomination. It's no wonder that Teri Garr refuses to talk about it to this day!

Agreed - didn't know that bit with Garr.

I was wondering when someone would get to the possible non-existence of the most popular Doctor Who companion. I'm afraid I couldn't possibly spoil the surprise on that one, so you'll have to keep reading to find out![

Which we would, anyway! Going to have to investigate more the origins and impetus for the Sarah Jane Smith character, who I know so well otherwise....

I'm sure that will become a very popular fan theory ITTL

And the writers will just write - yes, yes....still, it is a change from OTL where the two are clearly unrelated.

Thank you to everyone for your comments! Coming up next, of course, is the science-fiction update. However, it may take a little longer than usual to arrive; once again, that voracious entity known as RL is threatening to encroach on my progress with this timeline. But that will soon pass, and when it does, we'll be back in the thick of it! I hope to see all of you there. And thank you all for 20,000 views!

These things happen. We will wait. And this deserves lots more than 20,000, but you are right to celebrate it.

 

[Maltaran]

more later
However, with the show running in America and in England, might we not see Delgado's premature death butterflied away? He may be getting more job offers for film from America due to his Doctor Who appearances, leading him to not be available to play in the French movie, Bell of Tibet, meaning that he doesn't go to Turkey and die in an auto accident. This would also have significant butterflies for Doctor Who, among them being perhaps a slightly longer tenure playing the Third Doctor for Jon Pertwee, as the death of his friend Delgado helped galvanize his decision to leave the role (I don't think he'd stay much longer, but some, some).

I heard a story, not sure how true it is, that Delgado's death actually saved the Master - allegedly the powers that be were planning a story which ended with the Master making a heroic sacrifice to save the Doctor's life, but they had to shelve it after Delgado died and then instead decided to bring him back regenerated as a continuing antagonist.

 

[Glen]

I heard a story, not sure how true it is, that Delgado's death actually saved the Master - allegedly the powers that be were planning a story which ended with the Master making a heroic sacrifice to save the Doctor's life, but they had to shelve it after Delgado died and then instead decided to bring him back regenerated as a continuing antagonist.

That might have been a thought, but I think that was something they considered doing in The Time Monster but then backed off of it.

Actually, it is not incompatible to have the Master make a heroic sacrifice, and later in the series find out it was all just a clever plan....

 

[Glen]

Hmm, you think with more success for televised science fiction, the pilot "Earth II" (unrelated to our timeline's 90's show Earth 2) gets picked up as a series?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_II_(TV_pilot)

It might - much like that moon related short lived BBC series, this one may be TOO realistic or gritty for the times.

 

[Brainbin]

I love that everyone has so much to say! All of this stimulating discussion is deeply rewarding to me

Do not get me wrong the budget will not be anything like that for Trek but given the miracles they sometimes pulled off on a shoestring even a little more to work with could really pay off in taking 70' Who to the next level.

The budget will probably be similar to the first two seasons of Star Trek IOTL. So, roughly 200,000 1967 American Dollars per episode, converted into 1971 Pounds Sterling. Without question, a definite improvement over OTL Doctor Who in this era.

You may wish to avoid ascribing points of view to others my friend. I am a Doctor Who fan and a sci fi fan but not that much of a Trek fan actually. Also while I can see some things from a fan perspective I like to think that need not blind me to the greater picture as I believe some of my other comments show.

I apologize for offending you, good sir

I have to say that a lot of tv have plot holes but I didn't hear a good reason why the holes would be moreso or more glaring for the crossover. If by both sides you mean fandom then of course that is what many of the fans live for but if you mean the general public or the crews of the two shows I do not think they will be overly bothere by plotholes. Now if Pertwee upstages Shatner...

That is indeed what I meant. After all, the fans are the only ones who will remember the details of the plot. British audiences will look at the totality of the crossover ("The Doctor meets the crew of the Enterprise!") and American audiences will merely know about it from a pop culture history perspective.

I wonder if you couldn't butterfly away the change to a more R-rated TV landscape. Need it have happened, outside of the cable or pay networks? That is, is it credible the over-air broadcasters don't do even "NYPD Blue" (much later than current TTL) because it's too raunchy?

The last chance to save wholesome television is probably JFK - get rid of the assassination, assume that he'll pull out of the developing overseas quagmire rather than escalate it, and promote detente with the Soviets. Otherwise, the domino effect cannot be stopped.

There really was only one there worthy of my vote IMO, & this is it. Here's hoping you win it.

Thank you I appreciate your vote. I've got my fingers crossed!

Damn it! Missed that earlier but corrected now. Currently have a one vote lead over the nearest rival, which is the only other one on the list I'm subscribed to.

The vote tally has changed quite a bit since then, but I appreciate your support nonetheless. Thank you

(I was born in 1969, if you're trying to guess my age.)

If I had to guess, I would say that's the average age of this thread's readers - or at least, the regular commenters. I'm half-tempted to start up a poll to determine my exact reader demographics, because I'm honestly very curious.

So, if I take a break from this thread for a bit it'll be becasue it's getting a little out of my league now, as I came of age with the last bit of MTM as originallya ired, "Welcome Back, Kotter," the 2nd or 3rd season of "Barney Miller," etc.. I wached a number of shows in reruns before (especially original Star Trek), but the shows I recall most will be coming in a few years in the TL.

And we will be getting there! Eventually. I plan on covering late 1970s television quite extensively.

Then again, I might stay hooked for a while anyway. This is a fun read.

Thank you very much

Hmm, you think with more success for televised science fiction, the pilot "Earth II" (unrelated to our timeline's 90's show Earth 2) gets picked up as a series?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_II_(TV_pilot)

Another science-fiction suggestion! I'll be sure to investigate the matter in greater detail.

Fair enough, fair enough....With regards to some of the butterflies, looking into it more closely I think it is plausible if not necessary that the Python team do make that trip to Devon where Cleese becomes inspired/obsessed with the role-model for Basil Fawlty. However, I think it equally likely that Booth will not be with him on that trip, instead working on Doctor Who. So I think we get Cleese inspired, but Booth will be less involved in the original idea - don't know how this would impact things yet.

According to this video interview with Booth, she doesn't appear to have taken part in the trip, but was specifically called down to Torquay for the sole purpose of meeting Donald Sinclair. Apparently, she didn't get much of a chance to make his acquaintance, even IOTL. The way she tells it, Cleese just wanted a collaborator, and I don't blame him - he always seems to work best with one: Chapman for "Monty Python's Flying Circus", Booth for "Fawlty Towers", Charles Crichton for A Fish Called Wanda...

We talked about this a bit before, but I do think it deserves a bit more thought - given the way the crossover plays out, I would think it would be more likely that Dicks and Holmes bring their basic plot to the attention of the Star Trek writing team, then their writers throw in a bunch of ideas on how to inject 'Trek' into the story, then Fontana does the polishing and further integrating coming up with the final script, with further feedback from Dicks and Holmes. A slight difference, but I think it makes the subsequent story as presented make more sense - it also gives more of a rationale as to why the whole bullpen pitches in to 'Trek out' the Doctor Who treatment rather than having the senior Fontana take the lead from the beginning to provide a script given the purported importance of the cross-over.

All right. That's similar to what I had in mind; I think our ideas of how the crossover is written are closer than how we're describing them

Another item to note is we have mentions of 'being made to play nice' - is there actual probelms between the two writing teams? Do we have any reason other than general 'different shows' friction to believe that these two teams wouldn't work together?

No, we don't. They "got on" about as well as could be expected. There was some friction, of course, but not a great deal.

However, with the show running in America and in England, might we not see Delgado's premature death butterflied away?

Well now, that would be telling

Ah, but that is not the parallel I was thinking of - there you have one show 'inserting' itself into the history of another.

That was the nearest example I could think of. It just rankles me because of the awful music that replaced the terrific music. That fight scene! The tribble leitmotif! Scotty's Theme! Even all the little incidental cues! They're just so rich and colourful! ...And all replaced by formless, pointless "mood music" But don't get me started. I could go on all day.

Nonetheless, you've just put a major stake in the heart of an OTL fan controversy - congratulations!

Thank you. I'm glad to clear up any of those.

I love this, BTW! Very apt!

I can't help but picture "Are You Being Served" as I think about it. Can't you just imagine them trying to find a hat for Mr. Spock?

I've been an Anglophile since I was a child - which is a bit unusual, since no one else in my family was. Watched a lot of British TV on PBS back in the day - be interesting to see how that will work out ITTL....

We all owe PBS so much. It's thanks to them that I fell in love with "Keeping Up Appearances" as a child. (Apparently that show is an example of Germans Love David Hasselhoff - I understand that the British aren't terribly fond of it. British readers, am I mistaken?) And, of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being an Anglophile - I'm one myself, though perhaps not so much of this era.

I also wonder how this will effect the whole 'Peladon' two series story arc, if it gets made, as there they make reference to a 'Galactic Federation' that is suspiciously similar sounding to the one in Star Trek - here, they might just outright use the Federation.

I suspect that you might be right - it was likely a reference to Star Trek IOTL anyway.

I think that the show will have large overlap with the Star Trek demographic, really - maybe pick up some more kids and of course the small but loyal Anglophiles lurking in 1970s America.

TV audiences were less picky in those days. And, yes, Anglophiles were probably at their most influential in pop culture during this era.

These things happen. We will wait. And this deserves lots more than 20,000, but you are right to celebrate it.

Thank you very much I fully intend to keep posting and updating, which is the best way to bring that view count higher!

I heard a story, not sure how true it is, that Delgado's death actually saved the Master - allegedly the powers that be were planning a story which ended with the Master making a heroic sacrifice to save the Doctor's life, but they had to shelve it after Delgado died and then instead decided to bring him back regenerated as a continuing antagonist.

Welcome aboard, Maltaran! I've heard your story as well, and it's worth considering in the future.

 

[Glen]

With regard to the casting of the next Doctor Who companion, I found this very interesting tidbit on the first Sarah Jane Smith. She was replaced because of Pertwee - she just didn't have 'chemistry' with his character. On the other hand, he was all 'thumbs up' at Lis Sladen's audition.

So, it all still depends on timing, but....my suspicion is that if Connie Booth's companion is replaced around the same time as Katy Manning's character was IOTL, and Letts and Pertwee are still in the picture, then there is a good chance that one way or the other, Lis Sladen will be tapped to be the next companion, as in a sense she is what they are 'looking for'. Still haven't found much yet on the origin of the idea for the companion, but I will keep digging.

BTW, in my opinion, Sarah Jane Smith/Lis Sladen, while not fated, is the last of the OTL companions who might make an appearance ITTL, even though it would be a few years after the POD begins to impact Doctor Who.

Then, of course, there is the question of the Fourth Doctor....

 

[Falkenburg]

Since you (kind of) asked, I was born in 1974. By the by, I am definitively not a "Brit" (Belfast, NI).

US Imports have always formed a significant part of my television diet, though. Especially Serials.

That said I there have been a number of Shows referenced I've never heard of.
Mind you, have you ever heard of a Childrens' Show called "Chocky"?

As to the squirm inducing antics of Mrs Bucket (It's pronounced Bouquet, Dear ), you're bang on the money.

Although somebody must have watched it (IIRC it was HUGE).
A veritable mainstay of what passed for Prime Time Entertainment.

A contemporary example of the phenomenon is a Show called "My Family" (BBC1).
This has run for bloody years (or maybe it just seems like it?), enjoying significant ratings for some mysterious reason.

Falkenburg

 

[Glen]

With regard to post-Vietnam storytelling in TTL's 1970s and beyond.

We have seen the earlier close to Vietnam, and the failure to launch of MASH, but I don't think we will be seeing the end of Vietnam Vet movies - recall that the war had been going on for years even by this time, also recall that Mi Lai and Tet still have happened ITTL. That's plenty of grist for both antiwar and post-war angst films and television.