That is how big could the Brazilian empire plausible get:

Sicne we got a lot of threads of making succesfull empires even bigger, I decided to make one about the Brazilian empire, the idea is to have Brazil to take every window of oportunity that rose in the 19th century to make it as Big possible, the results are:

Corrientes, entre rios and missiones provinces, from Argentina: There are two windows, the first platinean war in 1821 and the second in 1851, those provinces are limited by the Paraná river and would allow a natural defence line between Brazil and Argentina. There was some pression OTL on those two wars to attack these provinces, but on the first case the war turned in a Stalemate and Dom Pedro I decided to sign a peace treaty, since his support between the people was fading and also it would take too much resources and manpower to move all the way to the Paraná River. This also could make Britain turn against Brazil. In the second platinean war, there was no annexation effort (even tough Prime Minister Marquis of Porto Alegre wanted to take those provinces) since Dom Pedro II didn't wanted to turn Brazil into a expansionist empire and he also was fearfull of making Argentina a enemy for life.

Uruguay (Cisplatina). Had Brazil fought better in the platinean war of 1821, or had Dom Pedro I spent more resources there, Brazil would have kept Cisplatina. The main problem with that is that it would increase the Brazilian-Argentinean border, making it harder to defend it in case of war, and also the region was spanish speaking so it would take years to integrate it, while the argentinians had enought resources to supply rebels and even make local garrison commanders change sides in case of a rebellion, and so the government prefered to create Uruguay as a buffer state, and it worked.

Paraguay (minus the chaco area). Some jingoist politicians wanted to annex Paraguay after the Paraguayan war, while others prefered to split it with Argentina, but the problem in both cases is that Paraguay was spanish speaking, it was too much devastated because of the war and so it would take years to rebuild it and it would increase our border with Argentina, while a brazilian aligned paraguayan government would be a good buffer state between both countries.

Finally there is French Guyana. French Guyana was occupied by Portugal during the Napoleonic wars, but it was returned after the war, The second window of oportunity came almost a century later, in 1895 when France made a incursion to annex the brazilian state of Amapá. The invasion failed as local troops under Francisco Xavier da Veiga Cabral routed them, he could had persued them back into Guyana, but Brazil was in shambles after the republican coup, the 1890 crash, the blockade of Rio, the canudos conflict and so this idea was easily discarded.

had Brazil taken all the oportunities we had, the Empire would look like this:

F9g0BxK.png


It must be added that the 19th century would be very tourbulent for Brazil to integrate all those spanish speaking regions while guarding this huge border against a very hostile Argentina.

P.s. Sorry for all those spelling errors, I barely had any sleep last night.
 
Last edited:
It's not clear to me that the Hispanophone areas of northeastern Argentina and Uruguay would necessarily be that difficult to assimilate. The post-colonial populations were small, and depended hugely on immigration for their growth. If Portuguese was established as the language of power, I could see a switch. Certainly it's more possible, given the relatively small differences between these two Hispanic cultures, than an Anglicization of Argentina.
 
Another route for increased size is retaining Portugal's colonies. Maybe even Portugal itself, but that would be much, much harder.

EDIT: Also, regarding the Guyanas, weren't they all under France during Napoleon? If so, Brazil (or Portugal at the time) might be able to grab them all. I admit to being a bit unclear about this.
 
Another route for increased size is retaining Portugal's colonies. Maybe even Portugal itself, but that would be much, much harder.

EDIT: Also, regarding the Guyanas, weren't they all under France during Napoleon? If so, Brazil (or Portugal at the time) might be able to grab them all. I admit to being a bit unclear about this.

It would be unlikely for Brazil to take over the Portuguese colonies, they are too far away and too loyal to mainland Portugal, the only way to make that is by having Napoleon to win the war in europe and create a puppet Kingdom of Portugal, forcing the house of Bragança to permanentely move the capital to Rio.

And well, the only thing I know is that French Guyana was briefly occupied by Portugal.
 
I do think that Brazil might eventually buy/annex all the Guyana territories and eventually settle them or put them into a situation akin to the "US" Philippines or Puerto Rico.
 
End the Napoleon Wars with Portugal being annexed by Spain. This would let Brazil keep the Portuguese colonial empire.
 
End the Napoleon Wars with Portugal being annexed by Spain. This would let Brazil keep the Portuguese colonial empire.
That's not an easy place to get their either. Neither Britain nor France are interested in a unified Iberia, how do you end the Napoleonic Wars with Spain annexing Portugal?
 
Was hoping there was an opportunity for an ATL Brazil gain direct access to the Pacific Ocean via a westward expansion from Amazonas and Acre taking a chuck of northern Peru and possibly all of Ecuador.
 
Was hoping there was an opportunity for an ATL Brazil gain direct access to the Pacific Ocean via a westward expansion from Amazonas and Acre taking a chuck of northern Peru and possibly all of Ecuador.

There was no window of oportunity on the 19th century for that. Plus there was no desire on the brazilian government, not even on the harshest hardlines of the 1930s like Francisco Campos to make such wars. Even if someone tried, there are the andes that make perfect defensive positions against a brazilian invasion, so I believe that this is ASB.
 
There was no window of oportunity on the 19th century for that. Plus there was no desire on the brazilian government, not even on the harshest hardlines of the 1930s like Francisco Campos to make such wars. Even if someone tried, there are the andes that make perfect defensive positions against a brazilian invasion, so I believe that this is ASB.


A pity, since having accessing to more oceans similar to the US would IMHO have benefited Brazil along with possibly one or two other states.

Anyway somewhat OT though while reading of there being a number of active separatist movements in Brazil, what would be suitable name for an independent state including Uraguay and most if not all of the OTL South Region of Brazil (plus possibly the Argentine provinces of Corrientes, Entre Rios and Missiones) and how would such a state compare with the rest of Brazil?
 
A pity, since having accessing to more oceans similar to the US would IMHO have benefited Brazil along with possibly one or two other states.

It would take decades to build railways to connect the eastern to the western coast of south america, and since there would be a massive rebel presence in the area as mountains favours the creation of guerrilas, the transport of goods would be heavily damaged by them. It would consume too much resources and take a lot of patience to create a effective supply route between both sides of the continent.

Anyway somewhat OT though while reading of there being a number of active separatist movements in Brazil, what would be suitable name for an independent state including Uraguay and most if not all of the OTL South Region of Brazil (plus possibly the Argentine provinces of Corrientes, Entre Rios and Missiones) and how would such a state compare with the rest of Brazil?

I don't know which name they would get, but it would be probably in portuguese since it would be the largest language group. This state would be poorer, more unstable (since now you got half of the population wanting to split to become uruguay again or to rejoin argentina) and their only possible ally is Paraguay, that cannot pose a treat to Brazil or Argentina. It either would end like Poland, or it would turn into a über uruguay. Since the PoD is so early I cannot quite predict how their economy would look like, but what can be garanteed is that the politics and the economy would be led by local oligarchs and that is a recipe to desaster.
 
The Braganças had a masterplan for a South American Empire that included invading the Plata. If done at the right time, I think the luso-brazilians could have done it. Might even have had British help, as the British had free with the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves, and they were a far more predictable partner than any new possible leadership in those territories.

I can't see Brazil taking over Paraguay before the 1860s - Paraguay was a nearly-inaccessible hellish swamp, Paraguay was pretty much a inland island then. Its why it was such a tough nut to crack - one does not simply walk into Paraguay.

Don't see much reason for Brazil to expand westwards (Bolivia, Peru, etc), far more to expand into the Guyanias and the Prata. To the west its just jungle and then mountains, that's not easy land to hold.

There were people in the colonies that wished to become part of Brazil, but I think it was a simple matter of Brazil not having a fleet capable of taking and holding it from the Portuguese.

Some brazilians are taught a bizarre version of history where Brazil was independent without any battle, or any serious fighting - that it was just token fighting against a enemy that had already lost. It was anything but -
Brazil started as a pennyless country ruled in a ramshackle arrangement between a prince, landholders and urban gentry, with a ramshackle army composed of volunteers and portuguese soldiers who sided with us. We had pretty much no army, no fleet, no money, no foreign allies, nothing at all, fighting against a 2nd tier European power that had a decent army and a global fleet, and contacts in pretty much every court in Europe.

Brazil is a lot like the China of South America, one could say - we don't have much reason for expansion, we have all the land we could ever need, really - all the land we didn't take was either hard to take, or not better than what we already have. We're the center, and everyone else is the periphery.
 
Last edited:
Brazil has a lot of theaters to expand on, but I could definitely see them wanting to go further into Argentina, as Argentina really is the only major power against it. An alliance with Chile would make Argentina fear for its life.
 
I don't know which name they would get, but it would be probably in portuguese since it would be the largest language group. This state would be poorer, more unstable (since now you got half of the population wanting to split to become uruguay again or to rejoin argentina) and their only possible ally is Paraguay, that cannot pose a treat to Brazil or Argentina. It either would end like Poland, or it would turn into a über uruguay. Since the PoD is so early I cannot quite predict how their economy would look like, but what can be garanteed is that the politics and the economy would be led by local oligarchs and that is a recipe to desaster.

Thought Paraguay was swallowed up by the Brazilian empire in this scenario?

Suppose Riograndense, Piratini, Sul or maybe even Pampas would come to mind for this ATL state though neither quite fits. What is interesting though that this state would potentially have the highest percentage of European immigrants comparable to OTL Argentina, with the possible addition of Uruguay only increasing that percentage.

Guess it would be too much to expect this state to be a type of a South American Belgium that depending on the situtation may or may not end up adopting some form of Portuñol.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
I remember reading somewhere that Angola was more a colony of Brasil than of Portugal.
True?
Some (even more than in OTL) turbulence in Portugal makes Brasil make a move for Angola to secure a source of slaves?
Pedro I transfers Angola to Brasilian adminstration it things stay that way?
Paraguay - as in that part of the world it are the rivers which serve as "hihgways" - maybe the east bank is annexed by Brasil? Or, as Brasil holds the mouth of the river - the whole of it?
 
While it could be said that the brazillian empire was largely successful, it did suffer from many issues since the beggining: various and extensive periods of instability, badly planned wars, a not so efficient bureaucracy for it's size.

Though these problems were more proeminent during Pedro I's rule and the regency that came after, Pedro II also had many issues with the elite, which not only opposed many of the reforms that he deemed necessary(outlawing slavery, for example), but also prevented the economy from diversifying (coffee plantations). This held the empire back from becoming truly successful.

Had a brilliant mind like Pedro II been given proper conditions to modernize the empire, @Gukpard 's map wouldn't even be necessary.
 
Though these problems were more proeminent during Pedro I's rule and the regency that came after, Pedro II also had many issues with the elite, which not only opposed many of the reforms that he deemed necessary(outlawing slavery, for example), but also prevented the economy from diversifying (coffee plantations). This held the empire back from becoming truly successful.

Had a brilliant mind like Pedro II been given proper conditions to modernize the empire, @Gukpard 's map wouldn't even be necessary.

Those expansion was not necessary, the actual borders of the brazilian empire are just fine.

And well, the problems actually got worse as time went on in the empire, the oligarchs had the real power, not the emperor or the parliament and Pedro II did nothing to stop them from seizing more and more power, to the point that the people didn't cared that the emperor was couped, why should them? They were ruled by their local landlord for decades and the figurehead emperor didn't showed opposition for that. The result is that after the coup Brazil became very close to the warlord era China, to the point that every state was divided by a bunch of landlords fighting for regional power, everyone with his own supporters, his own regional militia (or jagunços), in some cases with his own currency. The old republic was so decentralized that when Brazil bought tanks in 1921, they were not a property of the brazilian government, but from the civil guard of the state of São paulo and they were used to crush their own population when they rebelled against the republic in '24.
 
If you want to include an OTL opportunity which had a slim to none chance of happening, let alone the feasibility of keeping it, there was Portuguese Queen Carlotta's claim to the Spanish colonies. Technically, they'd be hers and not part of Brazil, but IF she attained them, her offspring with Joao could inherit and hold them both in personal union and perhaps they eventually merge. You would need some other POD's, like Napoleon winning in Europe, which means the Braganzas are done in mainland Portugal. Brazil was making amazing strides under Joao VI, and progress came to a screeching halt when Nap lost and J was forced back to Europe. If you include a 'Brazil' from pre 1822, but not so far back that it becomes unrecognizable to OTL, there are opportunities to increase the size of Brazil.
 
That's not an easy place to get their either. Neither Britain nor France are interested in a unified Iberia, how do you end the Napoleonic Wars with Spain annexing Portugal?
Napoleon's initial plan for Portugal was cutting it in 3. part annexed to Spain. part a kingdom for Godoy. part a remaining Portugal under someone other than Braganza. Personally, I don't think Nap ever intended such a division. My opinion is that he intended to use the invasion of portugal as part one to invading Spain - that the two were part of the same invasion. Whether Nap intended for a complete merging with a Bonaparte Spain, or whether some figurehead would head a Bonaparte Portugal, Braganza Brazil would have first dibs on the Portuguese Empire. France/Spain/Portugal have no naval means to take them from a Brazil allied with Britain, who has no desire to see Bonaparte get them in a peace settlement. the POD here is Bonaparte France reigning supreme in Europe.
 
There was no window of oportunity on the 19th century for that. Plus there was no desire on the brazilian government, not even on the harshest hardlines of the 1930s like Francisco Campos to make such wars. Even if someone tried, there are the andes that make perfect defensive positions against a brazilian invasion, so I believe that this is ASB.
What about more lowly populated plains and jungle east of the Andes? Could the western border of Brazil be farther west in Paraguay, Bolivia, eastern Peru, etc.?
 
Top