That Glorious Darkness - Or, The Planning Thread for My Next TL

I used a similar point of departure for the Vinland Refugee TL. (Which I will write up in a clarified form and continue when I have time -finishing up a Masters while working full-time at the moment) and have spent some time considering what would be going on in Europe.

My general and unformed thoughts on the matter were that the Mongols would sucessfully conquer large parts of Europe, including OTL Austria, Pomerania, Poland, Hungary, Italy, France and the Low Countries and Denmark.

Portugal, OTL Spain, Sweden, Norway, some parts of the Holy Roman Empire, some of the forest cantons, and the British Isles remain independent. Khan Batu and Subotai felt that they had reached the great ocean, and did not feel the need to waste armies in crushing every little tribe.
There was an intention to come back and finish up at least Iberia, the British Isles and the remains of the Holy Roman Empire, but troubles in the east prevented this.

The invasion butterflied away the election of Pope Innocent IV, in favor of a more strident and militaristic candidate. Venice, due to a delay in joining the armies of northern Italy, believed itself to have been abandoned. Knowing of the Mongols savagery to opponents, Venice instead surrendered to the enemy, giving them control of the Brenner pass.

Venice was granted unusually favorable terms, to encourage more surrenders. The Mongols advanced on Rome, razing it. The new Pope died as the Vatican burned. Venice became known as "Tthe Betrayer of Christendom"

The Mongols treated surrendered cities relatively well, but obliterated resisting ones. The campaign was particularily fierce in France, where massive numbers of knights and nobles of western europe perished. Most of France was nearly depopulated.

A new pope relocated intially to Spain. His successors would later move again, to Ireland. The catholic church did not fare particularily well under the Mongols, and I intended for some more eastern sect of christianity to eclipse them in conquered Europe.

Europe was divided into East and West, initially ruled by Kadan and Guyuk respectivly. Venice however, was by the original terms of surrender a direct subject of the Great Khan, and not included in either realm.

As time passed, it would take advantage of this position. Europe later provided large numbers of troops for the invasion of the muslim lands. Much wealth and ideas poured back into Venice and Europe from this venture.

The ideas of military power changed in Europe as a result of the Mongol invasion. Large numbers of Mongols poured into France during the rebuilding period.

That is as far as I have got. And those are basic ideas, requiring a lot more reading before fleshing it out.
 
Just a few questions on a side note: will in this TL the other Khanates make more conquests as well?

For example: will the Battle of Ain Jalut, where Hulagu Khan was stopped and his general Kitbuqa Noyen was taken prisoner and executed by the Mamluks, be instead be a Mongol victory here?

And dito for India:will the Mongol invasions of India in, er, 1295 and 1297 succeed this time?

And even more importantly: both the advance of Hulagu Khan as well as that of the Golden Horde was impeded by the war that Berke Khan declared on Hulagu for levelling Baghad and marching his army over the caliph?

Without that war, both khanates will have the opportunity to advance much further, rather than just wasting their energies on fighting eachother.

And yet another important point: one of the khans of the Golden Horde, Sartaq (who died in 1256, and was propably poisoned), was a convert to Orthodox Christianity. Sartaq ruled only a year before he died, and his death resulted in his brother Berke taking over.

And Berke started the war on Hulagu and was responsable for converting the lionshare of the Blue Horde (part of the Golden Horde) to Islam, as well as making the Golden Horde Khanate the first Islamic Mongol khanate...

Without Berke taking over, there would have been no war between the Golden Horde and the Il-Khanate, and both khanates would have had plenty of opportunity to set out to conquer...

On the other hand, if you leave Berke in charge, then Europe will fall under the rule of a muslim Mongol state...:eek: :eek:

...if they are not occupied with with waging war on their fellow Mongols for the destruction of Baghdad.

And the only likely way of avoiding that war with Berke ruling the Golden Horde, is to make sure that Hulagu never sacks Baghdad, which is in its turn not very likely either...
 
In my speculations, Venice got unusually favorable terms partially because they facillitated the conquest of Italy with their surrender. (And partially for being the first major city to surrender without fighting)

The militancy of the Pope also made Rome a very tempting symbolic target on many levels.

Edit: Also, as far as I could determine, the original invasion plan of Batu Khan and Subotai included the invasion of Germany, Austria and Italy.
 
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Must be a different pass. After all, the Brenner is at the Austrian-Italian border, that of 1918. Maybe you mean Aquileia, or Trieste?
 
Hm. It is quite early in the planning, so I just went by the Wikipedia article on Venice, which went:
"In the 12th century the essentials for the power of Venice were laid: the Venetian Arsenal was under construction in 1104; Venice wrested control of the Brenner pass from Verona in 1178, opening a lifeline to silver from Germany; the last autocratic doge, Vitale Michiele, died in 1172."
 
Just a few questions on a side note: will in this TL the other Khanates make more conquests as well?

For example: will the Battle of Ain Jalut, where Hulagu Khan was stopped and his general Kitbuqa Noyen was taken prisoner and executed by the Mamluks, be instead be a Mongol victory here?

Nah, I want to keep some rein on the Mongols. I treat AltHistory like an experiment: One variable at a time. Unless a victory at Ain Jalut could be justified...

And even more importantly: both the advance of Hulagu Khan as well as that of the Golden Horde was impeded by the war that Berke Khan declared on Hulagu for levelling Baghad and marching his army over the caliph?

I see no reason why this will be avoided. Berke will still be a Muslim, most likely. Thousands of Russian Christians under his rule didn't seem to move him to become a Christian. But we'll see. He may go Christian, but if he does then he will be opposed to Hulagu's attempt to incorporate the Holy Land, unless Hulagu himself becomes Christian (of whatever sect he adopts). Which isn't all that unlikely...

And yet another important point: one of the khans of the Golden Horde, Sartaq (who died in 1256, and was propably poisoned), was a convert to Orthodox Christianity. Sartaq ruled only a year before he died, and his death resulted in his brother Berke taking over.

And Berke started the war on Hulagu and was responsable for converting the lionshare of the Blue Horde (part of the Golden Horde) to Islam, as well as making the Golden Horde Khanate the first Islamic Mongol khanate...

Without Berke taking over, there would have been no war between the Golden Horde and the Il-Khanate, and both khanates would have had plenty of opportunity to set out to conquer...

I like a minimal application of the butterfly effect, so Sartaq would still die. :(

On the other hand, if you leave Berke in charge, then Europe will fall under the rule of a muslim Mongol state...:eek: :eek:

OR he could go Christian. See above.
 
How about the Eastern Roman Empire? How will it fare? I can just see a terrified Pope begging the Empire for military assisstance, even offering up the union of the two churches at the Catholic's expense! Or the Venetians asking the assisstance of the Empire's navy to transport their refugees.
 
From what I've read, the odds at Ayn Jalut were pretty solidly in the Mamluks' favor. You'd have to change a lot to get Hulagu into the Nile Delta. Now, an Italian Khanate invading Egypt from the sea somewhere down the line...

Oh, and did you read Fabilius' "Knut the Great" timeline? It involved both a surviving Anglo-Saxon/Danish union and a Mongol invasion of Europe.
 
How about the Eastern Roman Empire? How will it fare? I can just see a terrified Pope begging the Empire for military assisstance, even offering up the union of the two churches at the Catholic's expense! Or the Venetians asking the assisstance of the Empire's navy to transport their refugees.

The Pope would still have unconquered subjects in the Levant (barely) and the Iberian Peninsula, and the British Isles, so no, the Pope reducing his own status will not happen. The Papacy would sooner take up residence in Baghdad...
 
I don't suppose so. England is an island, and the Mongols tended to have bad luck on the water. Not to mention the Golden Horde would have to deal with creating an effective administration for just about the whole of Europe, and having to manage a large island would only serve to give headaches. Perhaps raids, but nothing more...

In my king Knut TL, England resists two invasions just like the japanese. (Although not through storm, but by naval fighting).

The mongols would probably at some point gather a navy and send for England as it is quite wealthy. However, they wouldn´t do it until they were pretty settled down in Europe, seeing as Kublai Khan was a 3d generation ruler over China.
 
The Pope would still have unconquered subjects in the Levant (barely) and the Iberian Peninsula, and the British Isles, so no, the Pope reducing his own status will not happen. The Papacy would sooner take up residence in Baghdad...

I would suspect Noway and probably Sweden would remain unconquered as well?
Ironically, I saw the unconquered Europe mainly as a crescent, running from Scandinavia through Britain to Iberia.
 
The Pope would still have unconquered subjects in the Levant (barely) and the Iberian Peninsula, and the British Isles, so no, the Pope reducing his own status will not happen. The Papacy would sooner take up residence in Baghdad...

Maybe a nice twist would be excactly that;)

(Not Baghdad though:rolleyes: )

But the pope moving to Iberia, or even fleeing to Britain!:D The pope of London. :)confused: The vatican of London).

It´d be interesting if a pope decides to relocate, even if it´s just to Sardinia or something.
 
Maybe a nice twist would be excactly that;)

(Not Baghdad though:rolleyes: )

But the pope moving to Iberia, or even fleeing to Britain!:D The pope of London. :)confused: The vatican of London).

It´d be interesting if a pope decides to relocate, even if it´s just to Sardinia or something.
No, silly, the Pope would end up at Canterbury:p
 
I chose Ireland, as I belived the Pope would consider it easier to maintain independence and power with some distance from Westminster. While at the same time also offering more distance from the Mongols than Iberia.

Iberia was a temporary refugee, but squeezed between Mongols and Muslims.

I could see other choices as well, though. Canterbury would offer more benefits of civilization, if a good political deal could be struck with the King.
 
The Pope would most likely take up residence in Leon. It was strong, and by c.1240s IIRC was more or less safe from constant Muslim raids...

I have a lot of ideas worked out, so look to the weekend for the first update guys. :)
 
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