Territorial compensation for the Netherlands after WWI

I was looking at the Bakker Schut plan, which obviously never happened. The Netherlands wanted a lot of territory from Germany after WWII and was told off by the allies. Yet after WWI Belgium did get some German territory.

So what if for some reason the Netherlands was attacked by Germany during WWI and Germany still loses*. At (alternate) Versaille the Netherlands want compensation from Germany. What would they get, realisticaly? Bakker-Schut is probably way too much. Belgium did not get much German territory, just Eupen-Malmedy. Would the Netherlands only get East-Frisia (which had been part of the Kingdom of Holland, after all)? Would it gain more (like plan C, or even B). Would the Netherlands gain some of the German colonies and if so which ones (part of new Guinea maybe)?



*which seems pretty likely. I don't think attacking the Netherlands would gain Germany much and would cost Germany quite a lot.
 
If a purpose of the Versailles treaty was to make Germany smaller, then on linguistic grounds a case could easily be made to have some of the Platt/Low Saxon speaking areas of northern Germany be transferred to the Netherlands instead, and at an extreme it would mean that the border goes east-north-east in a line from the southern Netherlands all the way to Poland.
 
If a purpose of the Versailles treaty was to make Germany smaller, then on linguistic grounds a case could easily be made to have some of the Platt/Low Saxon speaking areas of northern Germany be transferred to the Netherlands instead, and at an extreme it would mean that the border goes east-north-east in a line from the southern Netherlands all the way to Poland.

You are right that the northern part of germany is linguistically relatively close to the Netherlands. Especialy in the early 20th century, when a large part of the population would still speak the local dialect (although I suspect that many inhabitants of the largers cities in the area would speak standard German). That said I am looking at a similar situation to OTL, so I doubt they would completely dismantle Germany. Looking at the territory Belgium got (Eupen-Malmedy) I think that the Netherlands would gain some territory from Germany, but not a big part.

I'd love to see Netherlands get Belgium back!

Why would the Netherlands get Belgium? Belgium would be a victim of German agression too. There is no reason for the Netherlands to get Belgium.

And that is besides the fact that early 20th century Netherlands would not want Wallonia and probably wouldn't want Flanders either (it would completely mess up the political balance of the Netherlands between the catholics and protestants).
 
What if we assume a Netherlands that allows German troops to pass freely and later become a German active ally? Once I've read a wonderul TL about a CP Netherlands in an Italian AH website.
 
What if we assume a Netherlands that allows German troops to pass freely and later become a German active ally? Once I've read a wonderul TL about a CP Netherlands in an Italian AH website.
In that case Germany still loses the war, the Netherlands is an accomplish and loses its colonies, while losing Limburg, Zeelandic Flanders and possibly Brabant to Belgium.
 
the Netherlands OTL were firmly neutral and some Entente diplomatic blunders led Netherlands to get wary of them to say the least. The Dutch were cautiously pro-German sometimes. In March 1918, the Entente took every Dutch ship anchored in their harbour and the Dutch back then were OUTRAGED. Plus Belgium not being in friendly terms with the Dutch.
So a Netherlands being given something after Versailles need a very benevolent Netherlands towards the Entente during its neutrality or a Netherlands which breaks its own neutrality against Germany when the time is perceived as the best one.
The first option is doable but would it lead to major gains? Probably no greater than the Danish ones.
The second remains unlikely unless a massive blunder comes from Germany (like the Schlieffen Plan before Moltke modifies it, in which case, the Netherlands becomes a co-belligerant on the Entente side, likely helping France in the process by tying down some German troops in 1914).
 
In that case Germany still loses the war, the Netherlands is an accomplish and loses its colonies, while losing Limburg, Zeelandic Flanders and possibly Brabant to Belgium.
I don't agree. This scenario assumes the German-Dutch pact is secret, so when German troops pass across the Dutch-Belgian border is a complete surprise. In this way the whole Belgium could fall early, and German Army wouldn't take all the time it was necessary ITTL to pass across it.
The TL i talked about also involved Dutch presence in the front against UK going to make Maritz rebellion more successful, with South Africa becoming an Dutch/German/CP aligned Afrikaner-ruled state.
 
The second remains unlikely unless a massive blunder comes from Germany (like the Schlieffen Plan before Moltke modifies it, in which case, the Netherlands becomes a co-belligerant on the Entente side, likely helping France in the process by tying down some German troops in 1914).
In my original post I assumes this. Germany decides to take a detour through the Netherlands (basicly Limburg and Brabant) on its route towards France. Still stalls like OTL. The rest of the war plays out and Germany loses like OTL.
 
Why would the Netherlands want a large population of pissed off Germans, who don't really speak the language despite where linguists place the dialect on the charts. The break even point on assimilation costs is not clear; there are a number of ports but aside from the fishing industry not much in actual resources. The railways are oriented to the interior of Germany & not east-west to the Netherlands.
 
In my original post I assumes this. Germany decides to take a detour through the Netherlands (basicly Limburg and Brabant) on its route towards France. Still stalls like OTL. The rest of the war plays out and Germany loses like OTL.
Not entirely. The Dutch had an effective Intelligence Service and were the first to mobilize OTL (on 27th July they began final preparations and the mobilization took effect on August 1st), as a sign to everyone that they would protect their neutrality. Plus the Dutch ambassador on the 28th contacted Brussels and proposed, if needed, a common defense of the Meuse river: the Dutch Staff knew the importance of Liege and thus, the potential importance of Dutch Limburg to take the city. Their forces were concentrated and precise plan prepared fro years, including planned floods while concentrating their 4 divisions on a reduced area, between Limburg and the Hague.
The Dutch were much more prepared in 1914 than we think. Had Moltke decided not to modify the Schlieffen plan, the Dutch Army would have fought the Germans roughly where they were supposed to be. Of course the Dutch hoped to delay the German advance until the Entente comes (which would have not happened anyway). But the Germans would need at least three army corps to take out the Netherlands while still fighting as OTL. Schlieffen himself said that his plan required more men than Germany could have, and here they would use the same resources than OTL, but would take at least 6 Divisions away from the French and British. The fight in Northern France and the race to the Sea were a close thing. France in fact could be able to win just a bit more than OTL, thus for example recovering its coal in the Pas de Calais, which would be a huge plus.
Plus with the Netherlands being co-belligerant, the Blockade planned by Britain just becomes far more effective (since OTL the Netherlands reduced the effects of the blockade for Germany a bit). The Turnip Winter could turn into a real famine, thus weakening Germany even more while the famished Dutch population will want revenge after 1918.
 
I was looking at the Bakker Schut plan, which obviously never happened. The Netherlands wanted a lot of territory from Germany after WWII and was told off by the allies. Yet after WWI Belgium did get some German territory.

So what if for some reason the Netherlands was attacked by Germany during WWI and Germany still loses*. At (alternate) Versaille the Netherlands want compensation from Germany. What would they get, realisticaly? Bakker-Schut is probably way too much. Belgium did not get much German territory, just Eupen-Malmedy. Would the Netherlands only get East-Frisia (which had been part of the Kingdom of Holland, after all)? Would it gain more (like plan C, or even B). Would the Netherlands gain some of the German colonies and if so which ones (part of new Guinea maybe)?



*which seems pretty likely. I don't think attacking the Netherlands would gain Germany much and would cost Germany quite a lot.
Did you now that Belgium demanded to have Dutch territory after World War I due in their eyes having being pro-German, the British said no to that.
 
Did you now that Belgium demanded to have Dutch territory after World War I due in their eyes having being pro-German, the British said no to that.

Yeah, I have heard about it. That is why I mentioned that if the Netherlands joins Germany, they would lose Limburg and Zealandic Flanders to Belgium, the areas the Belgians wanted OTL. They most certainly would have gotten it if the Dutch were stupid enough to join Germany.

Not entirely. The Dutch had an effective Intelligence Service and were the first to mobilize OTL (on 27th July they began final preparations and the mobilization took effect on August 1st), as a sign to everyone that they would protect their neutrality. Plus the Dutch ambassador on the 28th contacted Brussels and proposed, if needed, a common defense of the Meuse river: the Dutch Staff knew the importance of Liege and thus, the potential importance of Dutch Limburg to take the city. Their forces were concentrated and precise plan prepared fro years, including planned floods while concentrating their 4 divisions on a reduced area, between Limburg and the Hague.
The Dutch were much more prepared in 1914 than we think. Had Moltke decided not to modify the Schlieffen plan, the Dutch Army would have fought the Germans roughly where they were supposed to be. Of course the Dutch hoped to delay the German advance until the Entente comes (which would have not happened anyway). But the Germans would need at least three army corps to take out the Netherlands while still fighting as OTL. Schlieffen himself said that his plan required more men than Germany could have, and here they would use the same resources than OTL, but would take at least 6 Divisions away from the French and British. The fight in Northern France and the race to the Sea were a close thing. France in fact could be able to win just a bit more than OTL, thus for example recovering its coal in the Pas de Calais, which would be a huge plus.
Plus with the Netherlands being co-belligerant, the Blockade planned by Britain just becomes far more effective (since OTL the Netherlands reduced the effects of the blockade for Germany a bit). The Turnip Winter could turn into a real famine, thus weakening Germany even more while the famished Dutch population will want revenge after 1918.

I agree.It would be rather unwise for the Germans to attack the Netherlands during WWI, which is why I assume the Germans lose like OTL. Actualy I think the Germans would not be able to conquer all of the Netherlands. I think with WWI level of technology the Dutch waterline would actualy stop the Germans. OTL the Germans realised attacking the Netherlands would not be a good idea. I think with some less competent leadership, or with the Germans underestimating the Netherlands or maybe the assumption that the Dutch would simply let the Germans through or whatever, Germany could still attack the Netherlands during WWI and suffer the negative consequences. People have done more stupid things in the past.

So the premise is this, Germany is stupid enough to attack France through the Netherlands and still loses WWI. What do the Netherlands get as compensation, just like Belgium got Eupen-Malmedy as compensation OTL?

Would they gain as much as the Dutch wanted after WWII (the Bakker-Schut plan I mentioned? No, probably not as much (like @Carl Schwamberger said too much Germans would be too hard to assimlate*) , but what would they get?

*In reality resistence is not futile
 
I was thinking about the colonial aspects. Since the Netherlands does not have any African colonies anymore, I doubt they would care for any of the German African colonies. If we switch to Asia, the Dutch have to compete with the Austrlians, who want German New Guinea and Japan who would want German Oceania. So what would be left for the Dutch?
 
I was thinking about the colonial aspects. Since the Netherlands does not have any African colonies anymore, I doubt they would care for any of the German African colonies. If we switch to Asia, the Dutch have to compete with the Austrlians, who want German New Guinea and Japan who would want German Oceania. So what would be left for the Dutch?
Well they do not need anything in new colonies, they already have the DEI.
 
Well they do not need anything in new colonies, they already have the DEI.
True, the Dutch East Indies is the best colony any country could have. Still dividing up colonies of beaten powers will happen and it is expectable that in the age of nationalism the Dutch would want piece of the pie, just like Belgium got Rwanda and Burundi.
 
True, the Dutch East Indies is the best colony any country could have. Still dividing up colonies of beaten powers will happen and it is expectable that in the age of nationalism the Dutch would want piece of the pie, just like Belgium got Rwanda and Burundi.
I can think other countries like the United Kingdom and France might disagree with that fact that the Dutch have the best colony any country could have.
 
I can think other countries like the United Kingdom and France might disagree with that fact that the Dutch have the best colony any country could have.
India was a good contender for best colony. Nothing France had in the 19th and 20 century was as good a colony as the Dutch East Indies or India. France lost all its good colonies in the 17th-18th century to Britain.
 
Getting the Dutch into the war is easy- just have Liege hold out for another week. Moltke planned on using the Dutch route if Liege hadn't fallen by M-12. It lasted a bit longer but its fall was pretty inevitable and the Germans waited. Moltke had dropped the Dutch invasion idea because he feared that the forces diverted to fight the Dutch would fatally weaken the right. He's correct as the right proved too weak even with the Dutch neutral. Diverting 4-6 divisions means the German offensive peters out long before the Marne. It also opens some short war scenarios- the gap at the Marne would be greater or the opportunity to take the German 3rd earlier is easier.

In a short war-

The peace would be a Franco-Russian affair. The British will have a say, of course, but they only had four divisions and will be wanting to keep the French happy as a possible ally against Russia. On colonial matters, the British will get their share. There won't by any idealistic Americans to get in the way either. The Franco-Russian agreement was the French got whatever they wanted in the West, Russia whatever they wanted in the East. The French are making the Rhine the new border, maybe not annexing it but detaching it from Germany. They won't mind throwing whatever crumbs the Belgians and the Dutch want- especially anything East of the Rhine. Giving the Dutch German territory would be a great way of creating German-Dutch animosity. The Dutch might get even more than they ask for

In a long war-

Assuming the war plays out like Otl, so Versailles happens after the British build up a respectable army, the Russians drop out and the Americans are there, idealistic Wilson and all, makes Dutch gains more limited. They aren't getting much more than an indemnity the Germans never pay
 

Deleted member 94680

Your best bet for atl-compensation of the Netherlands (which is unlikely, unless the Dutch do some fighting) is German Colonies.

Kaiser Wilhelm's Land possibly? It abuts the DEI and the Australians can be mollified with the Islands of the Bismarck Archipelago.

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