Templar Conquest of America

This entire thread is ASB... sorry. Danwild, there is just no way short of ASBs to get the Templars to America. Most pre-Columbian contact theories I have read are bunk, easily disproven by scholars with actual knowledge in the field. Greenland and Iceland were barely known in the era, and no one would send the Templars there for any reason. IIRC, even the Norse just knew Greenland as a vague territory that had been converted to Catholicism at some time in the past. If the Norse couldn't colonize and conquer the Americas, why do you think a small group of fugitive knights would have any more luck?

Even ignoring the numerous flaws in your posts, let's assume the Templars get lucky in God's throw of the dice. They make it to America.
So what?
They are less numerous than any other native tribe, even the Massachusett. Furthermore, there is no one else coming. To Europe, the Templars died somewhere between Iceland and the endless sea to the west. No Templar empire, no contact with the Old World, nothing. Just a group of heretics who met there maker in the mid-Atlantic Ocean.
 
This entire thread is ASB... sorry. Danwild, there is just no way short of ASBs to get the Templars to America. Most pre-Columbian contact theories I have read are bunk, easily disproven by scholars with actual knowledge in the field. Greenland and Iceland were barely known in the era, and no one would send the Templars there for any reason. IIRC, even the Norse just knew Greenland as a vague territory that had been converted to Catholicism at some time in the past. If the Norse couldn't colonize and conquer the Americas, why do you think a small group of fugitive knights would have any more luck?

Even ignoring the numerous flaws in your posts, let's assume the Templars get lucky in God's throw of the dice. They make it to America.
So what?
They are less numerous than any other native tribe, even the Massachusett. Furthermore, there is no one else coming. To Europe, the Templars died somewhere between Iceland and the endless sea to the west. No Templar empire, no contact with the Old World, nothing. Just a group of heretics who met there maker in the mid-Atlantic Ocean.

I am afraid I must respectfully disagree with nearly every statement made above.

First: An ASB thread requires actual magic, different physical laws, etc. What we are talking about here requires one or more incidents of low probablility to occur. That is not ASB, OTL history is full of improbable things happening.

Second: "Greenland and Iceland were barely known in this era." This is simply nonsense. While serfs in central Europe may not have heard of such places, anyone who engaged in commerce in northern or western costal Europe would have heard of them.

In Norway/Sweden they were taxable territories, and while interest in Greenland waned later, after the narwhal horn trade declined, they always knew where they had Iceland. Adam of Bremen wrote of both Greenland and Vinland, and the areas had bishops and sent tithes to the church.

The Royal Greenland Knarr ran until 1369.

Speaking of Bishops, it is worth noting that when Bishop Arnald were told that he was selected to be the Bishop of Greenland, he immediately fell to his knees and begged off because "I am no good with difficult people!"
Which shows that he not only had heard of Greenland, but also had some knowledge of the people.

Also note that during this particular time, Norway was not a minor power.

The problem faced here is that knowledge of the areas were not great, or particularly interesting in the areas where the Templars operated. AND we need the Templars to acquire more knowledge about the area beyond Greenland than that which was available.

There are also a couple of fairly solid indications of Europe-Vinland contact during the approximate period 1050-1300. Although none dating after the little climatic optimum ended.

Of particular interest to get this knowledge to the right people might be the 1278 mission to Greenland to collect Crusading Tithes.

Or we may note the long list of bishops going to Greenland. While the names indicate that they were mainly of Nordic extraction, is it impossible that a close relative (younger brother?) of someone who later became Grand Master could have ended up in this position?

(The last Bishop of Greenland to actually live in Greenland died around 1378. Suprisingly, I had thought it much earlier.)

Thirdly, "IIRC, even the Norse just knew Greenland as a vague territory that had been converted to Catholicism at some time in the past"

The Norse knew Greenland as a territory that joined the Kingdom of Norway in the 1200s, produced some rather valuable commodities, had a Royal shipping vessel dedicated to it, was settled by a mix of pagans and Christians (it was never converted, paganism supposedly died out. The first settlers in Greenland built a church.)

Fourth; "If the Norse couldn't colonize and conquer the Americas, why do you think a small group of fugitive knights would have any more luck?"

The primary reason the Norse failed is probably that they were at the end of a very long supply chain with a dwindling number of people and resources at every link. The Norse attempts we know of consisted of individual ventures by only a few score people.

It is not comparable to an organized attempt by several thousand people of a military order. Given a number of ships, and settling a defensible territory such as an island...this is a very different business from 20 people raising a longhouse.

Finally; "...let's assume the Templars get lucky in God's throw of the dice. They make it to America.
So what?
They are less numerous than any other native tribe, even the Massachusett. Furthermore, there is no one else coming. To Europe, the Templars died somewhere between Iceland and the endless sea to the west. No Templar empire, no contact with the Old World, nothing. Just a group of heretics who met there maker in the mid-Atlantic Ocean."

It is certainly possible that they vanish without a trace. It is, I find, a rather boring option, and I do not believe it to be the most probable one.
However, even if they are gone by the time the Europeans return to the Americas, just the disease shock and cultural contamination to the natives will have changed things.

Also, as pointed out earlier, there is a rather good chance of the Greenlanders migrating down.
 
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First: An ASB thread requires actual magic, different physical laws, etc. What we are talking about here requires one or more incidents of low probablility to occur. That is not ASB, OTL history is full of improbable things happening.
No actually, at least in my understanding. ASB is anything so improbable that it would take the guiding hand of whoever is writing the TL for it to actually occur ITTL. Although from our perspective, everything that happened in history had a 100% chance of happening because it did happen in OTL and we have no other scenarious that actually happened to compare it to.

anyone who engaged in commerce in northern or western costal Europe would have heard of them.
That does not contradict my statement. Fourteenth-century Europeans had heard of Mongolia, and at the same time were barely aware of it.

Speaking of Bishops, it is worth noting that when Bishop Arnald were told that he was selected to be the Bishop of Greenland, he immediately fell to his knees and begged off because "I am no good with difficult people!"
Which shows that he not only had heard of Greenland, but also had some knowledge of the people.
Again, this only confirms my statement that Greenland was a backwater. This bishop was begging on hands and knees not to go to Greenland, because he knew it was the medieval equivalent of being sent into Siberia. Just because he used the word people doesn't mean he had knowledge of them. That statement seems to be to just be begging not to go to Greenland in general due to its remoteness and harshness. Not a statement indicating his foreknowledge of the peoples of Greenland. And again, I never said no one in Europe knew about Greenland, just that it was not common and widespread.

Also note that during this particular time, Norway was not a minor power.
But it would become one soon after the Black Death killed over half of its population.

The problem faced here is that knowledge of the areas were not great, or particularly interesting in the areas where the Templars operated.
Wait, why are you supporting one of my statements in the midst of a criticism of the points made in my post? :confused:

There are also a couple of fairly solid indications of Europe-Vinland contact during the approximate period 1050-1300. Although none dating after the little climatic optimum ended.
Again, this does not rebut anything I said.


Or we may note the long list of bishops going to Greenland. While the names indicate that they were mainly of Nordic extraction, is it impossible that a close relative (younger brother?) of someone who later became Grand Master could have ended up in this position?
Slim to none, because a Scandinavian holding an exclusively French office or a Frenchman holding an exclusively Scandinavian office was just about unprecedented in this period.



It is not comparable to an organized attempt by several thousand people of a military order. Given a number of ships, and settling a defensible territory such as an island...this is a very different business from 20 people raising a longhouse.
My point was that a major advantage of later colonization was that more people would keep coming. I can't see 2000 people crossing the Atlantic at once in 14th century ships being 100% successful, so somewhere between 1000-1500 would actually arrive. How exactly do you propose they survive without much money, support, weapons, etc?
 
No actually, at least in my understanding. ASB is anything so improbable that it would take the guiding hand of whoever is writing the TL for it to actually occur ITTL. Although from our perspective, everything that happened in history had a 100% chance of happening because it did happen in OTL and we have no other scenarious that actually happened to compare it to.

I think probabilities still apply . I suspect it is not ASB until it is less probable than many things that happened OTL.

I also suspect you may have been a bit thrown off by the thread title. The Templars conquering North America, or even a significant part of it, is indeed ASB.
Dissemination of diseases, horses iron and ships to the natives, or a successful Templar colony the size of one of the original 13 states is not.

Also, while we have all wanted to give the people who argue that the Templars made it to America OTL a good shake, this is not any endorsement of that. It is simply speculating on what is needed to make that happen TTL.

The Templars had the means and the motive. What they lacked was the knowledge. There was considerable knowledge pool about Greenland floating around. And some on Vinland. But none of it was very enticing.

The POD we need would be one that gets more information on Vinland into Templar hands.

One way would be to have a close relative of a young man who would later become Grand Master become Bishop of Greenland. I am rather certain it was not a Scandinavian-only office, even if it worked out that way generally. The Pope could send anyone who made an unfortunate comment or was a political liability. Also, many monastic orders had a habit of setting up at the arse ends of the world to mortify.

Once there, the unfortunate cleric consoles himself with collecting tales of Vinland, the far north, the aurora, and writes letters to his realtive. Who does not need to be the Grand Master, only someone high enough up in the ranks that the Vinland intel is added to the general Templar knowledge pool.

When they get tipped off on the purge, the notion is advanced that with a small fleet stationed at the Eastern Settlement, pursuit can be entirely cut off.

Another potential POD that works for many Vinland TLs is OTLs Bishop Eirik Gnupsson who in 1121 left Greenland to explore Vinland. And was never seen again.

If that exploration had been successful, even if it only took in parts of the North American coast south of the logging camps, an interesting amount of knowledge would have been added.

My point was that a major advantage of later colonization was that more people would keep coming. I can't see 2000 people crossing the Atlantic at once in 14th century ships being 100% successful, so somewhere between 1000-1500 would actually arrive. How exactly do you propose they survive without much money, support, weapons, etc?

Well, that is what we call the story...

Anyway, I suspect they would have loads of money, which would just be dead weight. And loads of weapons and armor, which would not be. They were a military order, after all. However, if they came with at least a minimum of preparedness, and as has been suggested, had many ships available...Staking out a defensible island seems to have been part of the Templar operating procedure in the med.

Somewhere in the region of Newfundland lets their ships fish the richest fishing grounds on earth. That gives an instant stream of food.

Also, while the Greenland population was in decline at this time from its peak of about 5000, the very decline gives an impetus to leave. Once there is a christian power with ships and surplus land in the vicinity.

That gives a stream of a few thousand more, with some livestock and good climate-coping skills. Arriving as the disease-shock drops up to 90% of the natives.

They are not going to conquer North America, but the might dig in, and spread a lot of ideas to the natives.
 
What I was thinking was the Templars would first conquer OTL New Jersey then head south into the Caribbean. Then west into Meso-America.

Rough TL would go like this

Early 1300's fugitive Knights Templar land in OTL Nova Scotia but continue to explore south until finding more suitable land for settlement. Arrive in what is OTL New Jersey establish settlements and set up trade guilds with Scotland and Venice. Cutting timber for export to Scotland, trading manufactured goods with natives in exchange for valuable furs, then trade to Venice for luxury goods.

Late 14th early 15th centuries Lollards seeking religious freedom sail from Scotland to the New World.

Late 15th early 16th century Templar Knights later known as the Knights of America explore the Caribbean then conquer and Christianize Meso-America.
 
It was estimated that there were thousands of Templars free in Europe. If even a fraction had made it to the new world they would have been extremely successful.

They were an organized and well-trained military force that was well equipped. They would probably cut a swathe through the Eastern Coast of Terra Nova wherever they land.
 
What I was thinking was the Templars would first conquer OTL New Jersey then head south into the Caribbean. Then west into Meso-America.

Rough TL would go like this

Early 1300's fugitive Knights Templar land in OTL Nova Scotia but continue to explore south until finding more suitable land for settlement. Arrive in what is OTL New Jersey establish settlements and set up trade guilds with Scotland and Venice. Cutting timber for export to Scotland, trading manufactured goods with natives in exchange for valuable furs, then trade to Venice for luxury goods.

Late 14th early 15th centuries Lollards seeking religious freedom sail from Scotland to the New World.

Late 15th early 16th century Templar Knights later known as the Knights of America explore the Caribbean then conquer and Christianize Meso-America.

How defensible is New Jersey? I think when they first arrive, defensibility and food will have priority. I can see a trade springing up with Venice, if the Templars aren't wanted people in Europe.

However, it is a very long and dangerous journey back to Europe. I don't think timber is going to make it as a commodity. It is just too easy to get it from Norway/Sweden or the Baltics. North America cannot compete.

Greenland will want timber, though. Timber to Greenland, furs and ivory from Greenland to Europe. Be good for Greenland to trade for something they actually need.

Templars versus mesoamericans would be cool in the extreme, but I think they'll need at least another century to be able to project power that far.
 
Defensible from who? From natives setting up on a peninsula or an island initially would be a safe bet.

You really think the Templars need more time? I thought a couple hundred years would be enough to raise a small but elite force that could effectively replace the Conquistadors.
 
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