Tang victory at the Battle of Talas 751?

What would ramifications of the Tang victory at the Battle of Talas would be? I am already aware of the argument that in geopolitical terms this battle was not as decisive as some historians argue. But what would the immediate consequences of such outcome would be for Central Asia and the neighbouring regions would be? Would Tang victory increase their prestige, so that the Turkic states in the region would align themselves with Tang dynasty? Would this victory stop the Abbasid advance? If for example them losing most of their forces would it discourage them from expanding further. According to wikipedia Karluk mercenaries the Tang army and switched sides in the course of this conflict. Would them being loyal to Tang make them open to more Chinese influences? If we also would believe that the An Lushan rebellion begins roughly at the same it would allow the Turkic satelite state, maybe Karluks to move into the Trasnoxiana region? In other threads regarding this topic, I found ideas that in long term the defeat of Abbasids may encourage Zoroastrian revolt or resurgence? At roughly the same time Khurshid of Tabarestan, Dabuyid ruler of said region, which retained its independence in more than hundred years of until being submitted to become a vassal before the said battle. The population of Iran was still majority Zoroastrian, so if Khurshid rebels and tries to gather support from the rural Iranian populations would Iranian resurgence possible? Or such butterflies are too implausible?
 
What would ramifications of the Tang victory at the Battle of Talas would be? I am already aware of the argument that in geopolitical terms this battle was not as decisive as some historians argue. But what would the immediate consequences of such outcome would be for Central Asia and the neighbouring regions would be? Would Tang victory increase their prestige, so that the Turkic states in the region would align themselves with Tang dynasty? Would this victory stop the Abbasid advance? If for example them losing most of their forces would it discourage them from expanding further. According to wikipedia Karluk mercenaries the Tang army and switched sides in the course of this conflict. Would them being loyal to Tang make them open to more Chinese influences? If we also would believe that the An Lushan rebellion begins roughly at the same it would allow the Turkic satelite state, maybe Karluks to move into the Trasnoxiana region? In other threads regarding this topic, I found ideas that in long term the defeat of Abbasids may encourage Zoroastrian revolt or resurgence? At roughly the same time Khurshid of Tabarestan, Dabuyid ruler of said region, which retained its independence in more than hundred years of until being submitted to become a vassal before the said battle. The population of Iran was still majority Zoroastrian, so if Khurshid rebels and tries to gather support from the rural Iranian populations would Iranian resurgence possible? Or such butterflies are too implausible?

A tricky question to answer. The defeat at Talas was not the proximate cause of the An Lushan Rebellion, but it must have had some kind of an impact on internal Tang politics. The problem is that this is a period of tremendous local unrest in the area for any financial reasons, hence the rebellions in both China and the Caliphate. Hmmmm. The impact of a Tang victory at Talas might have had a religious impact at the very least, by perhaps leading to Central Asian Buddhism being stronger?
 
I was thinking in that direction as well. Central Asian region was a significant crossroad of religions, as various religions coexisted in the region peacefully before the eventual, but very slow predominance of Islam. How the victory at Talas would influence the religious makeup of the region? Syncretism between buddhism and tengriism in the steppes, Coexistence of Iranian and Indian religions in more settled regions? Or something different? I forgot to ask this question in my initial post.
 
I've always been of the opinion that a Tang victory at Talas changes little unless the Tang avoid the worst of the An Lushan rebellion. It was the An Lushan rebellion, which shattered Chinese unity and nearly overthrew the Tang, that weakened China to the point that it was no longer capable of projecting power along the Silk Road. In fact, even after the loss at Talas but before the An Lushan Rebellion, the Tang state was still able to project power in its western territory, invading territory in what is now Gilgit, Pakistan.

If the Tang win in 751 but pull back from the Tarim Basin anyways to deal with An Lushan, then they lose their influence over Central Asia anyways.
 
To be fair, butterflying An Lushan's rise to power is pretty damn easy - and while you're likely to get some sort of rebellion, it doesn't have to be as devastating as An Lushan's. The Tang government seem to have basically handed him every opportunity to amass more power when all they had to do was just stop giving in to his requests.
 
Would the spread of paper from the captured Chinese prisoners to the Islamic world be butterflied away? Could have some interesting implications...
 
Would the spread of paper from the captured Chinese prisoners to the Islamic world be butterflied away? Could have some interesting implications...
Paper is probably something that would have spread across the world at some time, this would probably just delay it by a century or two at most.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
there are argument that Rebellion in Tang and Abbasid success is because economic power of network of Sogdian traders. victory at Talas might convince trader network of benefit of supporting Tang ?
 
To be fair, butterflying An Lushan's rise to power is pretty damn easy - and while you're likely to get some sort of rebellion, it doesn't have to be as devastating as An Lushan's. The Tang government seem to have basically handed him every opportunity to amass more power when all they had to do was just stop giving in to his requests.
Yeah,just have Li Longji die twenty years before the rebellion.If he died twenty years earlier,he would have been remembered as one of China's greatest emperors.Capable,but long reigning emperors tend to become highly corrupt,tyrannical and incompetent towards to end.
 
So the victory would not really change anything major? I am aware that in geopolitical terms it was not significant, and the An Lushan Rebellion was the cause of the Tang withdrawal. Would defeat at Talas at least hurt the prestige of Abbasids? So the allure of Islamic ideology would be shattered in the eyes of local peoples? I am asking this question not to enquire if the sinification of Central Asia is possible, but if the Battle itself would change the developments that we had in Central Asia? So only by avoiding An lushan rebellion we may see Abbasid influence wane, and Tang influence to remain in the region? I am gathering ideas for a possible TL, centred on this outcome, but with eventual Tang withdrawal from Central Asia but maybe some decades later, or if there would a Türkic state that can fill the power vacuum when An lushan rebellion begins.
 
So the victory would not really change anything major? I am aware that in geopolitical terms it was not significant, and the An Lushan Rebellion was the cause of the Tang withdrawal. Would defeat at Talas at least hurt the prestige of Abbasids? So the allure of Islamic ideology would be shattered in the eyes of local peoples? I am asking this question not to enquire if the sinification of Central Asia is possible, but if the Battle itself would change the developments that we had in Central Asia? So only by avoiding An lushan rebellion we may see Abbasid influence wane, and Tang influence to remain in the region? I am gathering ideas for a possible TL, centred on this outcome, but with eventual Tang withdrawal from Central Asia but maybe some decades later, or if there would a Türkic state that can fill the power vacuum when An lushan rebellion begins.
The Tang Dynasty wasn't too interested in Scinicizing Central Asia at the time. They instead delegated power to Jiedaoshi--military commanders who were eventually the cause for the Tang's decline and destruction. That aside, a Turkic Empire gaining control of Central Asia--and perhaps even China would be plausible, although IMO the emergence of such an empire would still work with an An Lushan Rebellion that goes on as per OTL.
 
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So the victory would not really change anything major? I am aware that in geopolitical terms it was not significant, and the An Lushan Rebellion was the cause of the Tang withdrawal. Would defeat at Talas at least hurt the prestige of Abbasids? So the allure of Islamic ideology would be shattered in the eyes of local peoples? I am asking this question not to enquire if the sinification of Central Asia is possible, but if the Battle itself would change the developments that we had in Central Asia? So only by avoiding An lushan rebellion we may see Abbasid influence wane, and Tang influence to remain in the region? I am gathering ideas for a possible TL, centred on this outcome, but with eventual Tang withdrawal from Central Asia but maybe some decades later, or if there would a Türkic state that can fill the power vacuum when An lushan rebellion begins.
After the Anshi Rebellion,Tang's former Central Asian territory were either taken over by the Tibetans or the Uighurs,the former was Buddhist and the latter was Manichaean,not sure why Talas is linked with the spreading of Islam into the region.
 
I guess Weakened Abbasids and Central Asian Reshuffle, if it is possible.
Then a victory at Talas could indeed achieve that. The Abbasaids could fall in on themselves if crushingly defeated (they invested heavily in this battle). That would change a whole lot in Centrla Asia. Tang dominance may last a short while or a longer while, but one ought not forget at Talas, Tibet was defeated, too.
 
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