Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs in use 1943.

[rip89]

Having thought about it what i envisage being developed as this ITTL is a Lancaster with the Engines and wings of the OTL Lincoln to give it the extra ceiling/power to routinely carry the tall boy with Grand slams only being used for special ops. Yes it would not go up to the Ideal altitude of 40000 feet, but even bombs dropped from OTL altitudes more than did the job. Tallboys were more than sufficient for most hardened targets which Grand slam would have been overkill on, so this design would have been more than sufficient for wartime. This aircraft would also have been a better performing Night bomber for general bombing as well (using Lincoln figures) approx 5000 ft higher ceiling, approx 30 MPH faster cruise and general speed.

I just don't see a totally new concept of aircraft which was for one specialised role, would have needed large resources to be manufactured and would have taken a lot of time to perfect being produced in any meaningful time, so even if the Victory bomber was being developed it probably gets cut after the war (though I would have loved to have seen it built).

Any thoughts on possible target for it apart from OTL uses? and what would the effect of say 4 tallboys being dropped on a concentration of armour?

 

[PMN1]

A Lancaster in daylight in 1943.......not really an appealing proposition even with an extra 5,000ft on its ceiling.

 

[rip89]

A Lancaster in daylight in 1943.......not really an appealing proposition even with an extra 5,000ft on its ceiling.

Yes true, but for normal area bombing still flying at night. The U Boat pens are mostly based in france which means fighter escorts can be provided for daylight raids, and for attacks on battleships in port in Norway what was the strength of Luftwaffe fighters in Norway 1943? (thats a question I dont know). Once we get into 1944 well then you have USAAF Mustangs avaiable to escort any raids against high value targets in Germany itself.

 

[stevep]

Guys

Possibly a stupid question but because the Victory bombers was designed to be able to carry the Grand Slam does that prevent it being used to carry larger numbers of smaller bombs? I.e that the bomber wouldn't be tied to only one bomb-load and set of targets.

How would Grand-Slam be practical against general industrial targets? Probably not too cost effective but something large like a arms factory or a railway marshalling yard could end up a nasty mess if it hit, which could be the most important question. [A virtually unarmed bomber, even at those heights and speed in daylight would be somewhat risky I fear and think daylight might be needed for the accuracy].

Possibly the bomber, with a different load, smaller bombs and more fuel, might enable Britain to hit Polesti earlier?

Steve

 

[Don Lardo]

Possibly a stupid question but because the Victory bombers was designed to be able to carry the Grand Slam does that prevent it being used to carry larger numbers of smaller bombs? I.e that the bomber wouldn't be tied to only one bomb-load and set of targets.

That's not stupid at all. In fact, the OP mentions it in one of his posts.

Having the bomber be "multi-role" instead of a one-trick pony makes it's development more probable.

 

[corditeman]

Escort fighters...

The need for these would probably exist even with the Vickers Victory, but the altitude of 40,000 may reduce the risks of easy interception. Is there any escort fighter design in Britain in 1940 that could be extended to long range for 1943? I'm thinking about drop-tanks. The modified Hurricane turned into a Hurribomber comes to mind.

Any thoughts?

 

[PMN1]

Guys

Possibly a stupid question but because the Victory bombers was designed to be able to carry the Grand Slam does that prevent it being used to carry larger numbers of smaller bombs? I.e that the bomber wouldn't be tied to only one bomb-load and set of targets.

Yes, from what I understand Wallis' reasoning was 'confining the design to one bomb with a single electrical circuit should reduce the development period by several months.'

 

[PMN1]

Yes true, but for normal area bombing still flying at night. The U Boat pens are mostly based in france which means fighter escorts can be provided for daylight raids, and for attacks on battleships in port in Norway what was the strength of Luftwaffe fighters in Norway 1943? (thats a question I dont know). Once we get into 1944 well then you have USAAF Mustangs avaiable to escort any raids against high value targets in Germany itself.

It wasn't until early '44 when the USAAF fighters were set loose on the Luftwaffe everywhere and not just tied to escorting the bombers that Luftwaffe numbers began to fall enough for daylight raids to look like they could be sustained.

 

[PMN1]

How would Grand-Slam be practical against general industrial targets? Probably not too cost effective but something large like a arms factory or a railway marshalling yard could end up a nasty mess if it hit, which could be the most important question. [A virtually unarmed bomber, even at those heights and speed in daylight would be somewhat risky I fear and think daylight might be needed for the accuracy].

From Paul Brickhill’s ‘The Dambusters’

He worked out theoretical figures, more pages of figures, and decided there was a chance that a 10-ton bomb exploding deep in water by a dam wall would punch out a hole a hundred feet across.

Supposing the bomb did not go as deeply into the earth as the figures predicted? Wallis worked out the effects of a 10-tonner exploding about 40ft deep. In theory it would throw out the staggering amount of 12,000 tons of earth, leaving a crater 70ft deep, with lips 250ft across. He worked out the circumference of the crater and from that the maximum number of men and machines that could gather round the edges. Working day and night they could not fill it in in under 14 days. Supposing one such bomb was dropped accurately in a marshalling yard, or on a vital railway or canal or road where ground contours prohibited a detour.

 

[Riain]

The need for these would probably exist even with the Vickers Victory, but the altitude of 40,000 may reduce the risks of easy interception. Is there any escort fighter design in Britain in 1940 that could be extended to long range for 1943? I'm thinking about drop-tanks. The modified Hurricane turned into a Hurribomber comes to mind.

Any thoughts?

If we are making new planes, or existing planes do better stuff, then the escort fighter is at hand in the shape of the Westland Whirlwind. Get that working properly and you've got a fast escort fighter as early as 1941.

I don't know about the Victory bomber, perhaps the Lincoln bomber could be developed sooner as the 2200hp Napier Sabre was around in 1941.

 

[rip89]

If we are making new planes, or existing planes do better stuff, then the escort fighter is at hand in the shape of the Westland Whirlwind. Get that working properly and you've got a fast escort fighter as early as 1941.

I don't know about the Victory bomber, perhaps the Lincoln bomber could be developed sooner as the 2200hp Napier Sabre was around in 1941.

My point exactly a developed Lancaster ie the Lincoln is a lot easier to develop than a victory Bomber. The problem with the victory bomber is the precursor technology like pressurised cockpits and a bomb sight that can accurately deliver a bomb from 40000 feet if we can get around these then I would love to see the victory bomber

The escort problem is solved by the Mustang.The only plane in my opinion which should duel with the spitfire as the greatest fighter of WWW2

 

[NORGCO]

PODing through office politics

Achieving this POD would seem to require having someone other than Air Marshall 'Bomber' Harris in charge of Bomber Command.

The development of Tallboy and Grand Slam is Precision Bombing and would undermine his plan - obsession? fanatical commitment? - to victory by burning down the German cities. Harris, as I understand it, bitterly opposed anything that diverted resources from incendiary attack on the centre of cities. Coastal Command needed about as many long range aircraft as Bomber Command was losing on an bad night to close the mid-Atlantic gap, and he prevented it because it would take planes away from his campaign.

So this would be a major requirement for your Point of Divergence. The internal political situation in the RAF and Ministry of War would have to favour or at least allow proper discussion of an alternative campaign. And this IS and alternative campaign, since we are talking about developing the capability to destroy any large target chosen. A previous post mentioned a 250 foot crater resulting from Tallboy. No factory/Steel Mill/Oil Refinery/Railway Marshalling Yard is going to be working for a fair while after that kind of damage, since the damage area would have to be a lot bigger than the crater itself.

The Dam Busters raid got done but the diversion of engineering and other resources would have to have been smaller than for the Victory bomber or equivalent plus Tallboy plus escort fighter (Night fighter Mosquito maybe?)

So, office politics is the major enemy. Why am I not surprised?

 

[stevep]

NORGCO

Avoiding Harris and getting Bomber Command off the carpet bombing route would as you say probably have an even bigger impact by closing the air gap earlier as such an approach would mean the necessary a/c would be available for bomber command.

Steve

Achieving this POD would seem to require having someone other than Air Marshall 'Bomber' Harris in charge of Bomber Command.

The development of Tallboy and Grand Slam is Precision Bombing and would undermine his plan - obsession? fanatical commitment? - to victory by burning down the German cities. Harris, as I understand it, bitterly opposed anything that diverted resources from incendiary attack on the centre of cities. Coastal Command needed about as many long range aircraft as Bomber Command was losing on an bad night to close the mid-Atlantic gap, and he prevented it because it would take planes away from his campaign.

So this would be a major requirement for your Point of Divergence. The internal political situation in the RAF and Ministry of War would have to favour or at least allow proper discussion of an alternative campaign. And this IS and alternative campaign, since we are talking about developing the capability to destroy any large target chosen. A previous post mentioned a 250 foot crater resulting from Tallboy. No factory/Steel Mill/Oil Refinery/Railway Marshalling Yard is going to be working for a fair while after that kind of damage, since the damage area would have to be a lot bigger than the crater itself.

The Dam Busters raid got done but the diversion of engineering and other resources would have to have been smaller than for the Victory bomber or equivalent plus Tallboy plus escort fighter (Night fighter Mosquito maybe?)

So, office politics is the major enemy. Why am I not surprised?

 

[stevep]

PMN1

Bloody hell! That's a bomb! I'm not sure how many of the damned things could have been afforded compared to conventional bombs but the effects if you could get a few on target would be massive.

One other possibly target although with a lot of slave labour deaths. Once the Germans start work there a couple of Grand Slams in Penamundle would seriously foul up V-2 development and if lucky possibly kill quite a lot of the technical experts involved.

Steve

From Paul Brickhill’s ‘The Dambusters’

He worked out theoretical figures, more pages of figures, and decided there was a chance that a 10-ton bomb exploding deep in water by a dam wall would punch out a hole a hundred feet across.

Supposing the bomb did not go as deeply into the earth as the figures predicted? Wallis worked out the effects of a 10-tonner exploding about 40ft deep. In theory it would throw out the staggering amount of 12,000 tons of earth, leaving a crater 70ft deep, with lips 250ft across. He worked out the circumference of the crater and from that the maximum number of men and machines that could gather round the edges. Working day and night they could not fill it in in under 14 days. Supposing one such bomb was dropped accurately in a marshalling yard, or on a vital railway or canal or road where ground contours prohibited a detour.

 

[rip89]

PMN1

Bloody hell! That's a bomb! I'm not sure how many of the damned things could have been afforded compared to conventional bombs but the effects if you could get a few on target would be massive.

One other possibly target although with a lot of slave labour deaths. Once the Germans start work there a couple of Grand Slams in Penamundle would seriously foul up V-2 development and if lucky possibly kill quite a lot of the technical experts involved.

Steve

Thats why i started this thread I geninuly believe that these weapons could have of shortened the war if adopted earlier.

 

[NORGCO]

Thats why i started this thread I geninuly believe that these weapons could have of shortened the war if adopted earlier.

1) They could have been used against any target Bomber Command would actually be sent against, and unlike the tactics used, they would actually have gotten the job done.

2) Cost effectiveness. That was raised as a negative, 'maybe not cost effective'.

Everyone IS aware that by 1944 an average mission involved approximately 800 Lancasters? Of which somewhere between 40 and 80 would not return, as many shot up so badly they would only be useable for parts, and a lot of planes that made it back would have 1 or more dead and wounded crewman, right?

All with a Circular Error Probable of FIVE MILES so the target would have to be hit again fairly soon anyway With incendiaries a firestorm had to be created to destroy an urban area, that required tight bombing patterns that only happened a few times eg Hamburg 1943, Dresden 1945 and of course the all time classic Tokyo 1945 (B-29's from 5,000 ft, an area 11 miles by 12 destroyed).

Almost anything is more cost effective than what Bomber Harris actually had the RAF doing.

 

[Shimbo]

1) They could have been used against any target Bomber Command would actually be sent against, and unlike the tactics used, they would actually have gotten the job done.

2) Cost effectiveness. That was raised as a negative, 'maybe not cost effective'.

Everyone IS aware that by 1944 an average mission involved approximately 800 Lancasters? Of which somewhere between 40 and 80 would not return, as many shot up so badly they would only be useable for parts, and a lot of planes that made it back would have 1 or more dead and wounded crewman, right?

All with a Circular Error Probable of FIVE MILES so the target would have to be hit again fairly soon anyway With incendiaries a firestorm had to be created to destroy an urban area, that required tight bombing patterns that only happened a few times eg Hamburg 1943, Dresden 1945 and of course the all time classic Tokyo 1945 (B-29's from 5,000 ft, an area 11 miles by 12 destroyed).

Almost anything is more cost effective than what Bomber Harris actually had the RAF doing.

But I wonder if the critical thing is the 5 mile CEP? (Although that was 1940, by 1943 with improved target marking, Pathfinders and H2S, the CEP was less than that.)

Dropping a Grand Slam even half a mile from the target is not going to achieve anything except a big hole in a field. The RAF couldn't attack during daylight to get a better CEP because the Luftwaffe was still powerful enough to make casualties prohibitive. Stripped out Lancasters carrying Grand Slams flying during the day with limited escorts (unless we postulate targets in France or earlier escort fighters) are going to have even worse casualties.

IMO the RAF attacked cities at night in large numbers because that was the only practical proposition given the constraints. Bomber Harris might not have been a very nice man by all accounts, but he wasn't an idiot.

Reducing the CEP is the factor that makes precision bombing with Grand Slam possible. So you've either got to have air superiority so you can bomb during daylight or have much better night-time bomb-aiming.

Maybe Grand Slam Lancs with Oboe could do the night-time job? Although Oboe had limited range so can only get you to the Ruhr, not Berlin.

 

[PMN1]

My point exactly a developed Lancaster ie the Lincoln is a lot easier to develop than a victory Bomber. The problem with the victory bomber is the precursor technology like pressurised cockpits and a bomb sight that can accurately deliver a bomb from 40000 feet if we can get around these then I would love to see the victory bomber

Wallis had already worked out the bomb sight and the earlier High Altitude Wellingtons to the B.23/39 spec (Wellington Mk V) had proved the pressurisation - you need to read Paul Brickhill's 'Dambusters'

The Victory bomber has an adavantage over a Lancaster development in that it would effectively use the aircraft manufacturing facilities of the three factories that were building Wellingtons right until the end of the war.

As it was, a stratospheric Lancaster had been proposed but the break in production would cost too many aircraft.

From Tony Buttler’s British Secret Projects – Fighters and Bombers 1935-1950

In August 1941 Avro completed a brochure for its Type 684 Stratosphere Bomber. This all-metal airplane was designed to operate at a height that made it immune from fighter or AA interference and, with the exception of the nose portion of the fuselage, was identical to the Lancaster. The nose contained a pressure cabin, as designed for the experimental high-altitude Vickers Wellington flown in September 1940, which in conjunction with a Rotol blower, would maintain air conditions corresponding to 10,000ft when flying at an altitude of 40,000ft. To achieve this high-altitude flight the air flowing to the carburettors of the four wing-mounted Merlins would be increased in pressure by a slave Merlin 45 housed within the fuselage between and above the wing spars (the blower was placed between and above the rear spar). By regulating the rpm of the slave-blower to suit the prevailing conditions its discharge pressure could be made to correspond to 20,000ft conditions at all heights between 20,000ft and 40,000ft.

The 684 could carry either 4,000lb; 8,000lb or 12,000lb bombs, average cruise would be about 320mph and range 2,300 miles. The service ceiling at the start of the mission was 42,000ft and at the end of a flight 49,600ft. The absolute ceiling was 50,300ft, sea-level rate of climb at 60,000lb was 940ft/minute and at 38,492lb 1,910ft/min, time to 40,000ft was 57 minutes. A total of 2,130 gal of fuel was carried in the wings. The development workload needed for the standard Lancaster and its variants, and the new Avro 685 York transport which used the same mainplane, power eggs, tail and undercarriage, led to the design work on the 684 being suspended.

Dimensions: Span 103.2ft, length 72ft, WA 1,297 square feet,

Powerplant: 4 x Merlin XX, 1 x Merlin 45 (slave)

Performance: Max Speed 410mph at 42,500ft.

Armament: 12,000lb, no defensive armament carried.

 

[PMN1]

PMN1

Bloody hell! That's a bomb! I'm not sure how many of the damned things could have been afforded compared to conventional bombs but the effects if you could get a few on target would be massive.

One other possibly target although with a lot of slave labour deaths. Once the Germans start work there a couple of Grand Slams in Penamundle would seriously foul up V-2 development and if lucky possibly kill quite a lot of the technical experts involved.

Steve

You should read Stepehen Flowers' 'Barnes Wallis' Bombs; Tallboy, Dambuster and Grand Slam.

An then there are the bigger US versions...44,000lb

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1967/mar-apr/coker.html

 

[Nik]

six engines ??

Uh, was any consideration given to 'stretching' a four-engined bomber to six by adding wing sections and enlarging the tail ??

Putting the extra engines facing backwards might reduce the necessary clearances, albeit complicating cooling requirements...