Taiwan still part of Japan

I've hear about that too. It would be quite interesting to have a timeline where Taiwan keeps it's unique culture with a Japanese twist but also with a similar Korea. That would probably require a change before the Russo-Japanese war.
 
One option for them would be to fall back to Hainan. And it's likely that both the Nationalists and the Communists would claim Taiwan, though perhaps in a more symbolic way

One branch of KMT troops did fall back to HaiNan, and tried to keep connection with Taiwan, however, soon the defense line crushed by following landing CCP troop.

Not much there in HaiNan for them to hold on and keep the line.

The attitude of China before 1945 toward Taiwan is supporting "minor ethnic groups" to self-determine their future, including Taiwan. Clearly China had admitted Taiwan a long gone territory like those ceded to Russia.

As for renegade province, legally speaking, it involves complicated one China policy and PRC inherited ROC's property after the world recognize PRC as the sole China. If ROC rightfully and lawfully owns Taiwan, then of course PRC owns Taiwan as heritage as well.

US plays a big role here, since it's the main power to defeat Japan, not China, to have the say on how to deal the Japan's former territory (Taiwan).

Taiwan is now like in limbo, de jure, not a county, since it runs by ROC constitution, officially a province of China (Republic Of China), but de facto, Taiwan has its own militay, government and diplomatic recognition, is a country.

Nationalist, no matter retreated to Taiwan or not, is in fact no longer existed. Nationalist is basically equal to Taiwan plus strong traditional Chinese ideology, after 1949.
 
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Pretty much agree with godel.chen. It's a little discussed fact, and indeed not that well known about how Japan in contrast to how it ruled other areas, such as Corea, ruled Taiwan with a much lighter hand, and was far more benign in the administration of the place.

It's surprising how many older Taiwanese in particular one finds who have fairly positive things to say about that time and Japanese rule, especially when one goes to Corea and talks to older Coreans of the same generation and their experiences which contrast quite sharply due to Japan's far harsher and more brutal rule there.


Sargon

One pathetic thing to say is Taiwanese people never had the chance to have their own country, and Japan, though harsh, is the best thing ever happened to them in the near history.

Japan leads Taiwan into the modern world, and cut off those very bad Chinese habits, like opium use, foot-wrapping women, lengthy unsanitary braided hair, spitting...etc.

In the time of building a modern Taiwan, many Japanese developed strong fellowship with Taiwanese. Many unwilling to leave at KMT's demand after WWII, even killed themselves. The most well-known one is the wife of the architect of WuShanTou Reservoir, who jumped into the reservoir her husband built, then the biggest one in all Asia. (The statue of the architect is still worshiped by locals for his contribution to Taiwan's southern rice pad irrigation)

If Taiwanese people had their own country and got very strong national ideology, like Corean people, then things may not develop like today.

However, my point is, the natural development of Taiwan is either with Japan or to be independent. It's not like some of you think Japan needed to work hard to keep Taiwan together.

It's the US's policy to play Taiwan as a chess piece to keep its then ally, China, on resisting Japan, made Taiwan parted Japan, and entangled into a promised marriage, which bride has never been consulted her willingness.
 
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This thread is regarding how Taiwan can be part of Japan, not about the politics of Taiwan. If you want to discuss this issue, I would suggest starting a thread on the chat forum and we'll discuss it.

So I'll try to ignore the political aspects of your posts.

One branch of KMT troops did fall back to HaiNan, and tried to keep connection with Taiwan, however, soon the defense line crushed by following landing CCP troop.

Not much there in HaiNan for them to hold on and keep the line.

I agree with you there, as a Hainanese with regards to the KMT holding Hainan. The distance is one issue, but Hainan had strong communist guerilla activity while Taiwan didn't. The Hainanese Communist Guerillas coordinated with the invasion force and helped Hainan to be captured.
 
This thread is regarding how Taiwan can be part of Japan, not about the politics of Taiwan. If you want to discuss this issue, I would suggest starting a thread on the chat forum and we'll discuss it.

So I'll try to ignore the political aspects of your posts.

My apology. Especially if people feel i am a little intrusive as a new member. This is a topic i've heard and argued since i was a teenager, can't help but jump in...:)

My point is simple, Taiwan to be kept as part of Japan or not, isn't the same situation to Corea, or merely the result of one military action. It's a complicated regional antagonism, involving China, Japan, US, to this day.

Rewarding Taiwan to a allied China, to keep its resistance is the US intention at that time, especially when 1/3 of China was still in Japan's firm grip, (which covered almost all coastal provinces, the more industrialized, productive, urban area), KMT/CCP could barely control inland rural area, off from outside supply, by high mountains behind.

If things kept the way it was, KMT regime would collapse itself. some KMT officials were anxious to have a truce talk with Japan, in fact, US did caught intelligence that KMT sent guys to talk with Japan secretly.

So back to how to keep Taiwan as part of Japan?

Put aside Japan won the war, China reached a secret agreement with Japan might be another possibility. Angered US would no longer want to reward China with Taiwan, even Japan still lost the pacific war to US, it may leave Taiwan as Japan's territory or put Taiwan under UN's trusteeship.

Since Taiwan is at the pivotal point of China, Japan, US, where Taiwan go reflects the influence of greater power. To keep Taiwan Japanese, without a mighty Japan, the balance would be either US+Japan>China, or China+Japan>US.

A single mighty power owns Taiwan would be like to insert a dagger in between the other two.

In WWII, Taiwan effectively provided assistance to cut off US supply from sea to China, and acted as a springboard to attack China, and southeast Asia. Today's domestic airport, Taipei SongShan Airport, is the former Japanese military airbase, where many bombers, fighters took off to assault mainland China, and later became a kamikaze base.

I agree with you there, as a Hainanese with regards to the KMT holding Hainan. The distance is one issue, but Hainan had strong communist guerilla activity while Taiwan didn't. The Hainanese Communist Guerillas coordinated with the invasion force and helped Hainan to be captured.
Your agreement is very much appreciated, especially for a Hainanese. Nevertheless, allow me to finish the following, after that, i will tone down affairs about Taiwan.

An unproved history. Taiwan governor intended to keep fighting after emperor declared unconditional surrender. His officials estimated those stockpile of ammunition and food are enough (under ration) for 1-2 years of resistance against US invasion. Even later mustered some Taiwanese social elites to consult their willingness to form a new country.

My point is, Taiwan, then, a long time self-sufficient island, capable of exporting surplus to support Japan's war action, offered KMT not only place but also huge resources to keep CCP across the Taiwan Strait. Not merely distance or CCP guerrila.

Lot of military materials like, ammunitions, rifles, bunkers, etc, left by Japan, rice, cement...strategic materials were also abundant while kept producing.

(At 1945, Taiwan is already a industrialized, or semi-industrialized place, pls refer to Formosa Calling)

http://homepage.usask.ca/~llr130/taiwanlibrary/formosacalling/formosaframes.htm)

KMT later absorbed many former IJA Taiwanese soldiers, well-trained, to fight for its civil war, and defense Taiwan after 1949.

Without Taiwan, KMT doomed to perish.

The troop deterred CCP invasion in 823 artillery bombardment (Kinmen), trained by famous general Sun-Li-Jen, with KMT troop title, was in fact composed of Taiwanese draftee.

Sun-Li-Jen's original troop had long gone, only title left.
 
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*this might be a bit implausible*

What if after WWII Japan keeps Tiawan or at least following American occupation of the island it's returned to Japan?

Allow me to explain why this is possible, but pls be noticed that my reasoning is base on George Kerr's Formosa Betrayed.

The deciding factors are if Japan can be the regional stability maintainer and allied to US. (So to utilize Taiwan's geographic place and serve the interest of US)

However, according to George Kerr, US's original plan was to put Taiwan under UN trusteeship. Later under KMT's strong request, allow it to jointly administer this island.

This partly relieved MacArthur's burden on rebuilding Japan's living, however, KMT's unilateral decision to deport all Japanese on Taiwan, back to Japan, made him rather unhappy. (How could MacArthur feed those Japanese while they were only allow to leave Taiwan with X Kg of luggage, and KMT didn't have a navy to ship them)

If KMT irritated US too much, or KMT'd been totally annihilated in civil war, then no choice, either US needed to occupy Taiwan itself, or relying on Japan to keep the island from CCP attack. That is, make Taiwan still part of Japan.

It won't face unpopular resistance from Taiwan people, as i said before, most Taiwanese people got along with Japanese well, quite different from Corea's situation.
 
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Times Magazine Report, Monday, Jun. 10, 1946, "This Is the Shame"

At last, eight months after V-J day, sugar-starved China was getting supplies from its new sugarbowl, Formosa. Ships were plying the 400 miles from Kiirun to Shanghai with the first of 150,000 tons of Japanese stores confiscated by the Chinese Army that took over the island, under U.S. tutelage, last fall. But the resumption of trade with tropically lush, industrially rich Formosa was a sweet-&-sour business.

Formosans complained that the Chinese occupation army was looting stocks, letting crops, refineries, railroads and power plants go to rack & ruin. Just as angry Shanghailanders, who could buy only from the government-backed Formosa Sugar Co., feared that a colossal sugar corner was being rigged in the already disastrous black market.

Of the Moon & Sun. The Japanese, who seized Formosa after their first war on China 50 years ago, ruthlessly exploited its land and people. Formosa made Japan the world's fourth sugar-producer; it yielded enough rice to feed all the Mikado's armies as well as coal and tin, gold, silver and copper; teak and camphor (70% of U.S. mothballs) and aromatic Oolong tea. At mountain-ringed Jitsu-Getsu-Tan—Lake of the Moon and Sun—the Japanese built the nucleus of a power system that put Formosa industrially ahead of the Philippines.

The Taiwan (after the island's Asiatic name) Development Co. rigidly controlled industry and trade, brought half a million Japanese to live among six million Formosans (chiefly Chinese who have pushed the Malayan headhunters into the mountains).

World War II brought B-29 raids to Formosa, and liberation brought the scarcely more welcome visitation of Chinese bureaucracy. (Formosans use the adjective "Chinese" as a synonym for inefficiency and confusion.)

The new Chinese Governor Chen Yi found the raid-battered Formosans docile. He promptly put his nephew in charge of the Taiwan Co., which bought coal at 200 yen a ton and sold it at 4,000. Black-market gold sold at 300,000 Chinese dollars an ounce, against $180,000 in Shanghai. Even in fertile Formosa, mass starvation threatened.

Japan Got the Atom. Chen Yi rounded up scores of "collaborators" while his pooh-bahs made themselves snug. Last week "Down with the Governor!" posters appeared all over the island. In two towns, hungry natives burned sugar godowns. Formosans greeted the few visiting Americans with: "You were kind to the Japanese, you dropped the atom on them. You dropped the Chinese on us!"

Thoughtful Chinese on the mainland began to agree with the Formosans. Said Ta Rung Pao, China's counterpart of the New York Times: "Fundamentally speaking, China was not qualified to take over . . . she lacks the men . . . technique . . . commodities . . . capital. She governs, but is inefficient. She takes, but she does not give. This is the government's shame."

Most foreign observers in Formosa agreed that if a referendum were taken today Formosans would vote for U.S. rule. Second choice—Japan.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792979,00.html

p.s. My apology again for off-topic.
 
Bear in mind that it isn't just the KMT government that retreated to taiwan, pro-nationalist refugees, like those living in cities and the more educated have flee to taiwan as well.

1-2 million people flee to taiwan as well.
 

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I don't really see how Taiwanese politics are irrelevant to this subject...


Well, the thread started being about what circumstances could have allowed Taiwan could remain under Japanese control post-WW II.

It has morphed since then, but no more than many of the threads here. Political issues, however, should go to Chat.
 
Bear in mind that it isn't just the KMT government that retreated to taiwan, pro-nationalist refugees, like those living in cities and the more educated have flee to taiwan as well.

1-2 million people flee to taiwan as well.

Certainly i know, since one of those 1-2 million people is the father to my best friend, who moved to US.

Consistent to all my posts, as i said no people is total evil, in support of Japanese's rule in Taiwan, this also applies to KMT.

After KMT realized it may not be possible to back to mainland, Chinag-Ching-Kuo, did put up some effort to revive the post-war Taiwan economy. Taiwan mingles with cultures, local dishes, from different provinces, is part of the benefit of KMT brought.

But those are at the price of turning 70% Japanese-literate Taiwanese population to all Chinese-illiterate suddenly, and experienced drastic change.

This past, a history worth to ponder if Taiwan people choose to be unified under China, will serve as a warning of what's possible to happen, not use to blame those mainlanders of looting Taiwan. :)
 
Well, the thread started being about what circumstances could have allowed Taiwan could remain under Japanese control post-WW II.

It has morphed since then, but no more than many of the threads here. Political issues, however, should go to Chat.

Beg to differ, the tread started with,

What if after WWII Japan keeps Tiawan or at least following American occupation of the island it's returned to Japan?
Make it simpler, What if Japan keeps Taiwan after WWII?

Many guys posted with "i don't think...", unlikely, and finally bent it into "how can Japan keep Taiwan".

If everybody has fun discussing it, why kill it with the accuse of off-topic? or political?

Let me "back to topic".

If Japan keeps Taiwan, then one less flash point in the world, while Japan will have more influence over the region.

HTC, Acer, Asus, will be Japanese Brand. :)
 
I don't really see how Taiwanese politics are irrelevant to this subject...

To my eyes, those are history, to someone's eyes, they are politics.

Politics maybe controversial to some, i apologized for putting up stuff like that.

However, some talk of Taiwan in this forum, brightened my eyes, dunno it's a hot topic.
 
To my eyes, those are history, to someone's eyes, they are politics.

Politics maybe controversial to some, i apologized for putting up stuff like that.

However, some talk of Taiwan in this forum, brightened my eyes, dunno it's a hot topic.

I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I said I agree with you. Taiwanese politics are important in considering this question. If someone finds it controversial, then there is no need to take part in the discussion.
 
You know, one group of people in the ROC won't be happy if Taiwan declared indepedence.

Those people living in Quemoy.

Quemoy is the only place in 'proper' china that is under control of the KMT. So the indepedence have stated that they will return Quemoy back to the PRC...which the people there will not enjoy.
 
I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I said I agree with you. Taiwanese politics are important in considering this question. If someone finds it controversial, then there is no need to take part in the discussion.


i appreciate and am grateful for your support, however, i do know Taiwan issue is controversial, that's why i apologized at the first place, when i posted a Time Magazine Report.

To my eyes, those past are simply history to serve as an experience to Taiwanese.

p.s. Let people speaking up is my intention, even for those find it controversial. The purpose of discussion is not defeating others, but to understand each other, right?
 
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You know, one group of people in the ROC won't be happy if Taiwan declared indepedence.

Those people living in Quemoy.

Quemoy is the only place in 'proper' china that is under control of the KMT. So the indepedence have stated that they will return Quemoy back to the PRC...which the people there will not enjoy.

I posted at another thread, not only Quemoy people, my father enjoys KMT pension will also be very unhappy, if KMT is not the ruling Party. DPP tried to cut the pension budget several times before.

BTW, i served my two years military draft in Quemoy, they have the choice to stay, move to Taiwan or whatever KMT did before for those people of islands unwilling to stay under CCP rule.

A democratic country can't take care of every single individual, right? Just the majority. If majority decided to donate Taiwan island and all move to the US, why not?
 
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