Taiwan becomes a european settler colony
- Thread starter kasumigenx
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Penghu Islands, about 35 miles off the coast, were heavily settled by Chinese in the pre Dutch period, but the island of Taiwan was not.
Here is an important point from what I read in years past, including huge the Historical Atlas of Taiwan, which seems to be in every library of the Island. Only about 2,000 Chinese (most all the "despised" Hakka, and the rest Min from Fujian) were settlers on narrow enclaves trading with the natives and maybe pirate activities but that was not mentioned as recalled. None had the least authority from the government. After the conquest of the Dutch, that rose to about 30,000 Chinese (some sources state 50,000 Chinese and 50,ooo Aborigines under nominal Dutch authority, another 100K Han Chinese), the large majority being single Min men from Fujian.
Whereas before every night heavy doors were closed and the natives poked around unopposed at night trying to find weakness, large swaths were closed to such activities after a few years of Dutch settlement. Plus for a decade or two deer was the great trade item, top dollar paid for hides by the Japanese in Nagasaki, Unfortunately for the Dutch, both a personal and internal rivalry and the fact that they did not allow Chinese ownership of the land (only a garden of 1/4 acre per family would have done it, but no, they wanted serf plantations).
Tell me, why would government money go to those atlases regularly over a 13 year period, mostly during overwhelming control by the world's richest political party (up to 100 Billion in assets), the KMT, and the other period, DDP presidency, KMT legislative, made up of the main subgroups of Chinese people, the Min and Hakka. The atlas acquisitions were steady throughout, despite a very non nationalistic message for KMT or DDP. My guess is because it was extremely well researched, academics were left to do as they pleased by that time in distant historical research. And, besides, who reads atlases? Certainly not Aboriginies, as I never saw one step foot in any of the reference library, and usually you can tell on sight who is who.
Much of the population absorption of native Taiwanese was from disease, I guess. Like so many places around the world, it hit there, too. As late as the 1870's, ship wreck sailors were attacked because they brought diseases which were known to wrack through local populations. True, this was on the distant East coast, but we are talking about an island only 90 miles wide. (Japanese, French, and others used strong arm methods towards the Manchus because of this issue, and was the supposed reason for the Japanese take over.)
Diseases are a world wide issue in Western influx around the world. I presume it happened with Chinese in their drive to Guandong, Fujian ( 200 BCE to 1000 CE) and in Taiwan.
Also of note, from all evidence China would not have become interested in Taiwan except a dying remnant Ming, plus a Pirate fleet under Koxinga which saw Taiwan having a handy rebellion going on.
Finally, I think the original inhabitants were likely to have been Negrito, totally wiped out or amalgamated without visible trace:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6217502.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saisiyat_people
Not necessarily true. The Ming remnants and pirate Koxinga barely managed to do so, with several dutch ships against 400 junks. If another several had been brought up from Batavia (Jakarta), as was the military plan but was thwarted by personal vendetta, then the balance would have probably been tipped. The Ming had no other place to go, it pays to consider.
On 30 April 1661, General Zheng Cheng-gong ("Koxinga") of Ming China (1368-1644) laid siege to the fortress (defended by 2,000 Dutch soldiers) with 400 warships and 25,000 men. After a nine-month siege with the loss of 1,600 Dutch lives, the Dutch surrendered the Fortress on 1 February 1662, when it became clear that no reinforcements were forthcoming from Batavia ( present day Jakarta, Java, Indonesia ) and when the defenders ran short of fresh water."
The Chinese at that time no more wanted to control Taiwan or had little more ability to do so than Japan and less so than the Rykuyus. Come the next century the Manchus had more abilites, however. It would have never been easy.
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The Cape Provence bushmen were killed or put into slavery. It is written that they were found to be extremely intelligent and obedient, especially if the young of 1years to 6 years were taken away. They made excellent overseers. The Bushmen often killed their entire families to escape this fate. Now the mixed population, largely bushmen of this policy, make up the predominent population (53%) in the Western Cape Provence and speak Afrikans. They did not disappear by any means, and even during the first part of Aparthied could vote until 1956 there (for white representatives, of course).
An important point is all nearly exclusively white settlement areas (Urals, Americas north of Mexico, Pampas, Australia, almost 15% of the world land surface) were focused in temperate areas, especially dry steppe regions anchoring the holds. This was often started as cattle ranches, hardly a new event, but ended with what was essentially started in the Ukraine, especially by Menninite German farmers. Even tropical islands discovered uninhabited, like Mauritius, non whites were brought in to do the real work. Many islands had outside non whites brought in, from the West Indies to Fiji, where they remain as the overhelming, dominant or significant population today, especially as often the natives, if any, tended to die out. These regions could often have easily been left white, but temporary gain was nearly always the rule in the early days of exploration.
Also of note, Manchuria was settled in the very same pattern of steppe lands largely by hunger driven Chinese post 1911. It was best thought of as a land rush allowed by improved agricultural practices. Think of what was once called The Great American Desert of our USA plains states, now one of the world's greatest bread baskets. But dry land farming is extremely difficult and not practical until a few hundred years ago.
I hear that Antarctica is nearly exclusively white and has been for millions of years, too, but in a different way. Pun intended.
The Cape Provence bushmen were killed or put into slavery. It is written that they were found to be extremely intelligent and obedient, especially if the young of 1years to 6 years were taken away. They made excellent overseers. The Bushmen often killed their entire families to escape this fate. Now the mixed population, largely bushmen of this policy, make up the predominent population (53%) in the Western Cape Provence and speak Afrikans. They did not disappear by any means, and even during the first part of Aparthied could vote until 1956 there (for white representatives, of course).
An important point is all nearly exclusively white settlement areas (Urals, Americas north of Mexico, Pampas, Australia, almost 15% of the world land surface) were focused in temperate areas, especially dry steppe regions anchoring the holds. This was often started as cattle ranches, hardly a new event, but ended with what was essentially started in the Ukraine, especially by Menninite German farmers. Even tropical islands discovered uninhabited, like Mauritius, non whites were brought in to do the real work. Many islands had outside non whites brought in, from the West Indies to Fiji, where they remain as the overhelming, dominant or significant population today, especially as often the natives, if any, tended to die out. These regions could often have easily been left white, but temporary gain was nearly always the rule in the early days of exploration.
Also of note, Manchuria was settled in the very same pattern of steppe lands largely by hunger driven Chinese post 1911. It was best thought of as a land rush allowed by improved agricultural practices. Think of what was once called The Great American Desert of our USA plains states, now one of the world's greatest bread baskets. But dry land farming is extremely difficult and not practical until a few hundred years ago.
I hear that Antarctica is nearly exclusively white and has been for millions of years, too, but in a different way. Pun intended.
Apparently during the First Opium Was a number of people in the British government but mostly the merchants such as William Jardine pushed for the government to demand Formosa rather than Hong Kong during the peace settlement. Wiser heads though prevailed thankfully as the British negotiator Charles Elliot decided on Hong Kong as it was an excellent port and being an island handily removed from Chinese troubles on the mainland, plus as John Barrow who was then Secretary of the Admiralty put it 'Formosa was rather larger than Ireland'.
If you want it to be a European colony then find some way for the British to take Formosa instead of Hong Kong. Maybe the merchants prevail, the government seems to of had a rather depressing habit of caving in to them with regards to relations with China. The British were still transporting prisoners to Australia for roughly another twenty years so maybe they decide to send them to Formosa instead of Australia to help kick start the colony?
If you want it to be a European colony then find some way for the British to take Formosa instead of Hong Kong. Maybe the merchants prevail, the government seems to of had a rather depressing habit of caving in to them with regards to relations with China. The British were still transporting prisoners to Australia for roughly another twenty years so maybe they decide to send them to Formosa instead of Australia to help kick start the colony?
scholar
Banned
Uh...
Dutch Formosa
Now a South Africa situation is far more likely than anything along the lines of Australia. Most of the Chinese there now aren't really Chinese, they are a mixture of Japanese, Native, and Chinese peoples all thrown together. So it would be similar to that, only Dutch and Native. I seriously doubt it would be as well blended as today as The Chinese and the Japanese made major goals to assimilate the territory into their own collective provinces. I'd expect this to be handled much more like Indonesia or South Africa than as a fully functional part of the Dutch Empire.
It seems from reading your quote that you think the Japanese element is strong. Maybe a few cast off love interests, which are largely hidden by locals, but most of the regular elements I met were kicked out after 1945 or made to feel a lot of heat, and a few found their way back only because of cheaper living like expat US or Europeans do around the world. None had much good to say of the current status, they were merely saving money. Taiwanese doctors who studied in Japan were a major source, picking up a Japanese bride from the backwater island of Shikoku being still a politically advantageous status symbol during those years, a little like a poor Portugese wife for the son was considered fashionable with wealthy Hong Kong Chinese a hundred years ago.
Also in some mountain aborigine tribes there was a significant influx, and here the cases I know of that were Japanese Men to local women. Taiwanese especially, lot of families promised to raise kids as speaking Japanese so to get into better schools, etc, but that was really only from 1930- 45, and not a genetic input. (They had a hard time switching back, but managed. Many if not most of the middle class did this, about 10% of the Taiwanese population, and it was recently common to meet these former kids in high levels of staff.)
The Taiwanese language, used at home with still around half of the population, has about half the words from Japanese. Perhaps you are thinking of that. Yet maybe one person in five hundred has any Japanese blood whatsoever, overwhelmingly from the 50 years they were there and about 0.05% of the population genetics.
scholar
Banned
I'm referring to quite a few factors for Japan being included, but i you say only one person in five hundred have any Japanese ancestry on Taiwan then there were quite a few genocides after the ROC took over, or its a faulty statistic. Well over a 250,000-300,000 Japanese and mixed Japanese and Chinese (or Native) unions were on the island when the total population was around when the Japanese were in control of the island in the early 40s where the population of the island was roughly 5-6 million. The Japanese population made up roughly 5% of the population when the Chinese took over. There was a large exodus and a large expulsion of the Japanese, but I find it unlikely that all the Japanese were eradicated to the point that 5 in 100 (this is pure blooded Japanese, not half or fewer. Nor the natives who fully assimilated into Japanese culture) dropped to 1 in 500.
Nevertheless, there is a very large cultural impact of Japan which is much more important than genetic contributions, such as the factors you have already noted.
I've always been told that most of the Han Chinese came to the main island when the Dutch imported them as laborers.
Anyway, strange story about the Dutch in Taiwan. After the Ming admiral routed the Dutch forces, a sizable number of stragglers escaped into the mountains where they intermarried with the aboriginal people. During the 1950s, my grandfather served as a volunteer doctor up in those mountains, and he supposedly saw aborigines with fair skin, blue eyes, brown hair, and European facial structure. He swears he's not bullshitting me, but it makes for a good story either way.
Anyway, strange story about the Dutch in Taiwan. After the Ming admiral routed the Dutch forces, a sizable number of stragglers escaped into the mountains where they intermarried with the aboriginal people. During the 1950s, my grandfather served as a volunteer doctor up in those mountains, and he supposedly saw aborigines with fair skin, blue eyes, brown hair, and European facial structure. He swears he's not bullshitting me, but it makes for a good story either way.
Which is pretty much what I said.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Can you please clarify? Also, your last sentence is a bit insulting to those of us who have aboriginal ancestry.
While disease would have had a role, you have to remember that the populations in Taiwan, with maybe the exception of the most isolated tribes like the Tao, have had constant contact with small numbers of outsiders. They lived in large enough communities and had enough contact between villages to keep diseases going, so they were far better off than the aboriginal Australians or Native Americans.
I speak both languages, and I can tell you that this is not true. There are only a few loanwords like "sabun" and "otobai". The majority of words that are the same/similar in Taiwanese Hokkien and Japanese are because both languages borrowed heavily from the language used during the Tang dynasty.
The Tsou tribe is supposed to have a lot of Dutch mixed in, and they do look a bit different. Google pictures of Tang Lanhua. I believe she is Tsou. Due to the long period of contact, I think the Siraya and Dutch would have had some intermarriage. My grandmother is mostly Siraya, and she says that we may have a Dutch ancestor floating around somewhere in our family.I've always been told that most of the Han Chinese came to the main island when the Dutch imported them as laborers.
Anyway, strange story about the Dutch in Taiwan. After the Ming admiral routed the Dutch forces, a sizable number of stragglers escaped into the mountains where they intermarried with the aboriginal people. During the 1950s, my grandfather served as a volunteer doctor up in those mountains, and he supposedly saw aborigines with fair skin, blue eyes, brown hair, and European facial structure. He swears he's not bullshitting me, but it makes for a good story either way.
If that figure is in any degree accurate then my guess certainly is no where close. Very few were killed, as during that time the KMT government was extremely careful of anyone who had relatives outside the island/beyond Mainland, even including to the degree of a few Japanese which took part in 2-28 (those who did not have outside connections, meaning Taiwanese, were killed without hesititation). But as said, in the end I have read just about as many departed the island as possibly could, except up in the mountains where the situation was and is different. The date here is 1950 and there were extremely few Japanese left, which I have read stated. The only ones I heard of (from those growing up in Taiwan since) were 2 much needed nurses who carefully stuck to their profession in a smaller railway town, and a doctor's wife. Some did come back years later after retiring as related. Come to think, it would not be surprising if a sizable number did remain and hide the background, considering the period post 1949. I do doubt that it would make a sizable input in blood ties effect, or that those remaining and remembering had large families (Taiwan tripled in population).
From what source did you get the figure? 250 -300 K sounds like a guess as opposed to census figures.
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No offence meant. Actually, a good many Han Chinese on the island want to have nothing to do with history of the island as well. Mainland history pre Manchu seems much more popular, and that is often sort of a specialty at that. I also have never seen anyone else open that book, as common and prominently placed as it is, though of course a fair number in the archive section.
I have met Aborigine computer programmers and such, though it tends to be more practical and professional than theoretical, which does not surprise. The same goes for those raised in the hills of Appalachia (US) for obvious reasons of opportunity and focus.
It is relatively easy for Taiwanese speakers (Min) to learn Japanese, and apparently I read a poor source of the real origination of the connection and origination. It was in printed form, however.
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This is very implausible due to the attitudes of Koxinga, but if he had pursued a different policy, the Ming loyalists might have sought to ally with either the Dutch or Spanish traders in the region, not expelling them. Butterflies down the line following a failed loyalist incursion and utter defeat by the Qing, the Europeans move into Taiwan. Could this work?
Also I would like people with knowledge about Dutch colonization in Taiwan to possibly assist me. I have been told that my great-great-great-grandmother was a Dutchwoman, despite that time period being long after Dutch settlement on the island. Could she perhaps have been an aborigine from one of the tribes that intermarried with the Dutch instead?
Also I would like people with knowledge about Dutch colonization in Taiwan to possibly assist me. I have been told that my great-great-great-grandmother was a Dutchwoman, despite that time period being long after Dutch settlement on the island. Could she perhaps have been an aborigine from one of the tribes that intermarried with the Dutch instead?
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More likely than not. For instance, it is often enough that a mix has nearly all the physical characteristics of one side or another. To the locals, she would be Dutch. But who knows? And considering the tumultuous history after the Manchus entered, especially for the Aboriginies coupled with their previously booming Deer Hide trade, it would have been nearly a status symbol. I have often enough heard Taiwanese (Han) say they had Dutch blood, and considering how many generations back it is more possible for the percentages/attributes.
A white woman was very uncommon out there in the earliest years and I would expect normally quite a bit sought after. But it did happen thoughout, as long as they could get there (of course the earliest crews were completely male with no passengers). A hundred years or so ago, off hand, one highly educated lady librarian married a fellow in China, cant remember which book, maybe Wild Swans. Bruce Lee's grandmother was a German. At the turn of the century one white woman who married a local of ordinary means in Hong Kong and became a landmark for those giving directions!
In Alaska, the school marm (and author) married a half breed, who she loved deeply amongst all the competion of the usual seekers of her charms. They did not know whether to accept it or run her out of town. As one of her students blurted out, "You're one hell of a white woman."
Probably more so of a scene for Taiwan back in 1645.
scholar
Banned
I didn't get it from here, but it does back me up in a way.
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/olds.taiwan.economic.history
That's weird... I've been told literally the same story about my lineage as you have. My mother claims her maternal great grandmother was Dutch, which doesn't make any sense at all. That'd be roughly sometime in the second half of the 19th century, which is just plain silly. My mother's adamant about it, saying that her ancestor was a shipwrecked Dutch trader long after the colonial period, but I've always just written it off as a desire for some additional social prestige.