T-34 tank never developed

Mikhail Koshkin never develops the prototype A-20 forerunner of the T-34 tank, and thus it is never fielded.......

Does the KV-1 or IS-2 now become a famous soviet WW2 icon instead?
 
Mikhail Koshkin never develops the prototype A-20 forerunner of the T-34 tank, and thus it is never fielded.......

Does the KV-1 or IS-2 now become a famous soviet WW2 icon instead?


Well, without the mass produced t34 the russians have a big problem.

the kv1 (and later the Kv1C or KV85) had been only average tanks... to heavy, to complicated and to slow, they are not as fast or good as the t34... for 10 t34 you can build 3-4 kv1...

the kv1 has only bt7/t26 as support, that is no good mix... so the russians suffer more... the kv1 is at best as manoiverable as the tiger... and to maintain it is also quite stressing.

in the end the russians lack the mechanic force to achieve breakthroughs... to shredd german infantry... instead they have slow big targets... the german mark3 will be stopped (so more and propably earlier StugIII L40/48 will come into service) and the mark 4 with the l40/48 will still happen.

in such combats the russians suck... their heavy tanks are not able to be as sucsessfull as the many t34s... also, improvemnt to the kv1 mean even more heavy tanks... i doubt they can develop the IS-Versions... also their tank destroyers are either fat ugly and slow (similar to the Elefants) or based on light small tanks...
if they reach 1944 they have not the superb T34-85mm but the KV85... slower, not better tanks with a worse maintanence... also the russians have just 1/3 to 1/5 the tanks they had in otl...

so no, the kv1 will not be famous but only something like the Char1Bis of the french... a tank of a defeated nation. the russians would cry for shermans and british tanks... but imagine russian shermans against german tigers in russia, without the complete air superiority for the russians... outch... bad time for mother russia
 
I'd guess the KV-1 and KV-2 would be produced rather than the larger SMK and T-100.

If not the T-34 then would the smaller 45mm armed T-50 get the nod? Dale Cozort wrote a very good AH article on the T-50 being chosen for production over the T-34.

There was a new variant of the BT-series with sloped armor (the BT-IS IIRC) that also might have been considered. This of course helped lead to the A-20 so maybe have the entire BT-series considered obsolete and no variants based on them accepted.
 
I'd guess the KV-1 and KV-2 would be produced rather than the larger SMK and T-100.

If not the T-34 then would the smaller 45mm armed T-50 get the nod? Dale Cozort wrote a very good AH article on the T-50 being chosen for production over the T-34.

There was a new variant of the BT-series with sloped armor (the BT-IS IIRC) that also might have been considered. This of course helped lead to the A-20 so maybe have the entire BT-series considered obsolete and no variants based on them accepted.


well, the question was "if the t34 NEVEr was developted"... so no redevelopment by the backdoor....

and any other tank the russians had is way inferior to the t34... in the first year it is bad, in the second worse and from 1943 on it is a deaster...
 
Er, the T-34 wasn't the only tank in development... and the Soviets knew they needed a replacement for the BT tanks at least, even if they weren't sure about replacing the T-26s yet. So this isn't 'getting a T-34 by the backdoor' - this is 'Koshkin isn't assigned, but someone else's BT-series tank replacement is introduced,' which is the logical response.

Personally I'm not sure the BT-replacement would look like the T-50 (since that tank was designed as a light infantry tank, intended to replace the T-26); I think it would look like a sloped (sloped armor was already showing to be rather useful in tests of sloped BTs like the BT-IS), diesel-engined (less flammable than the gas engines that brewed up under fire at Khalkin Gol) BT, without the complex and unnecessary track/wheel system (which was complex & unnecessary, and proved to be such in the Soviet-Japanese clashes), or perhaps something even closer to the OTL A-20 design. Not a revolutionary tank like the T-34, but a reasonably good tank, all the same. One thing to consider, though, is that this upgraded BT (call it a 'BT-9?') would be in service earlier than the OTL T-34, since there's less political issues (no conflict with heavy tanks like the KVs) and since there's no redesigns to turn it into a universal tank.
 
Er, the T-34 wasn't the only tank in development... and the Soviets knew they needed a replacement for the BT tanks at least, even if they weren't sure about replacing the T-26s yet. So this isn't 'getting a T-34 by the backdoor' - this is 'Koshkin isn't assigned, but someone else's BT-series tank replacement is introduced,' which is the logical response.

Personally I'm not sure the BT-replacement would look like the T-50 (since that tank was designed as a light infantry tank, intended to replace the T-26); I think it would look like a sloped (sloped armor was already showing to be rather useful in tests of sloped BTs like the BT-IS), diesel-engined (less flammable than the gas engines that brewed up under fire at Khalkin Gol) BT, without the complex and unnecessary track/wheel system (which was complex & unnecessary, and proved to be such in the Soviet-Japanese clashes), or perhaps something even closer to the OTL A-20 design. Not a revolutionary tank like the T-34, but a reasonably good tank, all the same. One thing to consider, though, is that this upgraded BT (call it a 'BT-9?') would be in service earlier than the OTL T-34, since there's less political issues (no conflict with heavy tanks like the KVs) and since there's no redesigns to turn it into a universal tank.

Hi,

again... nothing against a bt-tank... it just has not the potential to be a great tank (like the t34 was - even if the germans build better tanks, this doesn´t say the t34 was bad... bad was the russian tank doctrine in ww2 - no, not even bad, just their enemy was much better in mobile warfare... but with the t34 (esp the 85er) they could havoc the "better" german tanks... and also the equal/worse tanks.

with a bt-tank and without the t34 the russians have SOME (double the numbers) heavy KV1 and many light tanks (like t26 and BT7)...

the germans killed so many tanks in 1941 that MORE tanks are just more captured or destroyed russian tanks.

For the war this means the germans loose less tanks in combat in 1941, mabye (big what if...) do better in winter (lesser losses, shorter retreat) and have in spring 42 only a few dangerous enemy tanks (the kVs), the BTs are against StugIII, TD like Marder I/II/III or Mark4 L40 in deepest troubles...

Oh, the germans will have different tanks, too... i doubt they produce the panther... without the t34 there is no need... they need more tigers (against KVs) and better mark4.... so for the germans they have vastyl superior tanks in the heavy-section (tiger versus KV) and extremly superior tanks in the medium section (Mark4 against BT 9), in the light section they still have mark3, cause even they with the l60 are much better as any light/medium russian tank

so we have the otl-much better tank doctrine, officers (for tank warfare) but also the much better tanks (compared to otl in that the russian t34 had been vastly superior to any german tank till the mark4-g (this tank was equal to the t34... that changed with the t34-85)...

so the better crews, with better tactics in better tanks against lesser numbers of dangerous tanks (KVs can´t be in this numbers, allied tanks are - well just as inferior as they had been, compared to ttl russian tanks they are better, a sherman is every day way better as any bt-tank) with higher losses (if you have more bt-tanks, you have much more destroyed bt-tanks after battle, all numbers compared to russians with t34...)

if you look at the combat records you learn that the lot light russian tanks (for example at kursk, here at procorovka the russians throw some light (BT) units against the german infantry, they died faster as you can think about it) did mostly nothing, but the t34 could break through and the could do it with SPEED.
the t34 was the KV with BT speed... if you have both you have tanks that can be destroyed by any german anti-tank gun (so Sdkfz 250/251 with 37mm at-guns are deadly against the bt-s (but they did not perform so good against t34)) but are fast and you have SLOW heavy tanks with good armor, but these - even if breaking through have the problem that german counter attacks with mark4 or tigers will destroy em...

so smaller gains with higher losses - if gains at all... russian strikes with this combination are not very useful, they advance and they run fast in technical problems with their heavies... so they have only bt´s for the follow up assault... but here they have to handle german panzerdivisions full of mark4 and tigers...

also the 75mm-L40 can kill a bt-tank from much greater range... even the 50mm-gun (quite useless against the KV1 and the later T34) kill it all day long...

So, the russians produce 20% more tanks as otl, but they have only 20% of the t34-numbers, the rest is cannon fodder... so the quality of russian tankers stay bad (if all vets are dead after 4 Weeks they cannot improve)


no - without the t34 the russians are in deepest troubles, like the brits without the spitfire (think about BOB with only hurricanes, but even more think about the air war in 1941-43 with NO spitfires, so the hurricane 5 with an inferior design try to handle FW190 or midwar Me109... no large german losses, a 5-1 ratio against british fighters would be normal.

similar effect for the russians without the t34... it was their backbone...

the kv1S is a better tank (but only from spring 42 on), but still to slow. the kv85 isn´t good enough and the IS2 is really problematic. great design with BIG failures, only some rounds to fire, no good opticals (so hitting something is difficult)... i doubt the russians will use their IS3 (better, much better), cause they are defeated much earlier
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Mikhail Koshkin never develops the prototype A-20 forerunner of the T-34 tank, and thus it is never fielded.......

Does the KV-1 or IS-2 now become a famous soviet WW2 icon instead?

Yes, the Russian will glorify whatever there main tank happens to be. Assuming the KV-1 is chosen as the main tank by Stalin, a lot depends on when it is fielded in numbers. If in 1941, it will present huge issues to the Germans on a tactical, but not strategic level, and many of these tanks will be capture by the Germans. This hard to kill tank will cause profound difference in German weapon development compared to OTL, because the KV-1 will be the main reference point, not the T-34. The panther is much likely a vastly different tank.

If however it is first used in number at the same time at the T-34 is done in OTL, it has some interesting impacts. The T-34 was first used in numbers on the northern flank of the 6th Army in 1942. The Germans countered with much of their panzer units and stopped the attack. If the KV-1 is used with the 1/3 fewer division, the Germans have even more trouble, but with Panzer units, 88mm guns, and air power they will stop the attack. The KV-1 will still be a great shock to the Germans and will again cause changes to the weapons programs compared to OTL, in an urgent need for very heavy anti-tank weapons and bigger guns on tanks. The KV-1 will show it weaknesses in the attack to surround Stalingrad. Heavy tanks are slow, and much better defensive weapons than deep penetration enveloping weapons. The KV-1 travels at 2/3 the speed, weighs twice as much, can't use lighter bridges, performs worse on rough terrain, and has limited river crossing ability.

When surrounding Stalingrad, the tanks will move slower and be forced to use larger bridges. The advance will go slower, and if the Germans blow enough bridges, then the Soviets may not close the pocket. Through out the rest of the war, the pattern will repeat compared to OTL. The soviet advance will move slower, giving more time for the Germans to react. The Soviets also have fewer tank armies, so likely fewer deep penetration operations are tried.
It does not change the outcome of the war, but the Soviets will advance slower, trap fewer German formations, and attempt fewer armor attacks.
 
Are you all forgetting the 1st real Medium tank in service the T-28 so no T-34 just means more T-28's with upgrades to the suspension(Christie type) per the T-29 prototype and with the armor improvements in the last production version of 12(new turret/frontal plate per Winter War xp),And later model 76mm gun. Not really a disaster of epic proportions.

http://beute.narod.ru/Beutepanzer/su/t-28/t-28.htm
 
Unless the reason to stop the design process is a change in doctrine or design/operational thinking, their will be a new medium tank built as has been already suggested. In what form or shape I don't know.

I think its safe to say that there would have been a new generation of tank fielded in some fashion.
 
Mikhail Koshkin never develops the prototype A-20 forerunner of the T-34 tank, and thus it is never fielded.......

Does the KV-1 or IS-2 now become a famous soviet WW2 icon instead?
No. There were 3 competing designs for the *T-34. One of the other 2 could easily have gotten approved, except Koshkin was more politically astute.
 
The KV series of tanks were very resilient, and were not commonly knocked out by anything below 88mm
KV-1_KV-2_1_11_small.jpg

The tank pictured is still 'operationable'.
 

sharlin

Banned
Aye KVs were unholy pigs to drive and were slow but dear god they were tough. The germans had nothing that could stop them and even an 88 could have issues stopping them.
 
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