Swords of the Iroquois

"shield toad" => sköldpadda (sv), skilpadde (no) skildpadde (dk) is indeed used in modern Nordic languages, as well as in German (shildkröte)

There are few large reptiles in northern Europe resembling turtles so connecting the mysterious new animal with toads makes sense. Salamanders and sand-lizards are both distinctly streamlined.
 
"shield toad" => sköldpadda (sv), skilpadde (no) skildpadde (dk) is indeed used in modern Nordic languages, as well as in German (shildkröte)

There are few large reptiles in northern Europe resembling turtles so connecting the mysterious new animal with toads makes sense. Salamanders and sand-lizards are both distinctly streamlined.

And "padda" exists in Old Norse/Icelandic as "toad". Sure, go with that, then.
 
If I remember correctly, At some point during the 12th -13th centuries the church was appointing a bishop for Greenland who was not expected to go there. It could also become so for Turtleland. If the Christians were in the minority and not very doctrinaire they might let Christianity just become one cult among many.
 
@ Shevek23:
This may change when I get farther along in the TL, but at the moment I don't intend for North America to drop off the radar at all. The first Europeans to cross the Atlantic will do so maps of their destination and rough estimates of the distance from point A to point B. It will also happen earlier relative to Europeans getting their hands on the compass, though who knows what that will be compared to OTL?

@ Daði Þorfinnsson and Maxwell Edison II:
Shield toad...I like it. I like it a lot. So...skjaldpadda and Skjaldpaddey, is the consensus? I can work with that. I can see the latter being Latinized as Scaldpaddum.
 
1.2: The Gathering Storm

1.2: The Gathering Storm

“I may seem to be an unlikely person to be advocating this alliance so vigorously,” Nena-ongebi[1] orated. “After all, what have these ‘Haudenosaunee’ or their constituent powers ever done to my people? The Thunderbird Clan do not live south of Lake Erie, so why should I care if the Six Nations decides to ban the sale of weapons to those who do?

“Simply, the answer is that it’s not what the Haudenosaunee have done, but rather what they’re planning to do. The goal of the Haudenosaunee is nothing less than total domination of everything. That no doubt seems like melodrama on my part, but bear with me.

“The stated goal of the confederacy is to bring peace to the world. A lofty goal, no doubt, but how does one go about it, practically speaking? Treaties and alliances are all well and good, but they’re also fragile, temporary things, and there is not much you can do if one party is not negotiating in good faith. So if peace is one’s goal, long-lasting and enforceable peace, how does one go about getting it in a practical matter? The answer is obvious. Peace is had at the end of a spear. If you truly want peace with everyone, the only logical solution is to have so much military and economic might that no one dares to defy you.

“But that is, of course, conceptual, right? I did of course take the stated goal of the Haudenosaunee and take it so far to the furthest logical extreme that it came back around the other side, after all. Even assuming the Haudenosaunee aren’t exaggerating or trying to make themselves look more noble than they are, there’s a difference in what people say and what they do, and people rarely ever take their own moral stances to the logical conclusion, to the point where the logical conclusion is almost a logical fallacy. So let us look at that confederacy’s actions, then.

“The first thing the Haudenosaunee did when they consolidated was to force New Vinland into their fold. Why would they do this? None of the other five nations have any shared cultural heritage with the Norse, after all. They did it simply because the Norse had valuable resources—ironmongery, longboats, trade routes, livestock, wheat—and were too weak to put up much of a fight. The first action of the Haudenosaunee upon coming into existence was to imperialistically expand their territory and power base!

“And now there is this resolution to ban the sale of iron weapons to those nations which live south of Lake Erie. Which, I’ll have you know, breaks the very Great Law that these people hold so dear.” Nena-ongebi produced a scroll and handed it to the Kandoucho Chief Souharissen[1], pointing out a few lines. “The Great Law is admirable in that it puts as much effort into denoting what the Great Council can’t do as well as what it can—and what it can’t do is dictate the internal affairs of its constituent nations, essentially. So that makes it particularly jarring that they would do such a thing as curtail the actions of Norse merchants. One would hope that a nation would last more than three months before selling out its highest ideals, so what in the world prompted this action?

“Is the answer not obvious? They want to ensure that their neighbors remain weak while they become strong, so that when the time comes—perhaps in ten years’ time, perhaps in five, I do not know—they can overrun them, take their lands and scatter their people. And this brings us back to our original question—why should we care? Neither your people nor mine are proscribed, after all. But think—once the Haudenosaunee control the southern coasts of Lakes Ontario and Erie, what is the next logical thing for them to do? Where do they go next? What would you do if you were them? I’ll tell you what I’d do—I’d go north. And with a monopoly on iron weapons and Norse shipping, who could stop them?”

Nena-ongebi watched Souharissen visibly think with a vague feeling of dread. Thusfar in his quest he had gotten only vague commitments of the “I’ll join if so-and-so joins” persuasion, and did not expect this day to prove any different. Everyone wanted an anti-Haudenosaunee coalition, but nobody wanted to be the first to join.

“Perhaps,” Souharissen said. “If you can gather more allies and convince me that your army has a chance of winning the war you propose, I would be willing to join. But until then, needful as the cause might be, I’m not willing to sacrifice my own people in vain.”

Nena-ongebi bowed, said a few polite formalities, and left the longhouse cursing under his breath in his own hopefully-incomprehensible-to-the-locals language as he passed tables full of Kandoucho warriors. Having a gift for languages, he could speak all the major dialects of the Great Lakes region, and had made it a point to address Souharissen in his own tongue rather than the de facto trade language of Norse so that these warriors would have an easier time understanding him. Hopefully, if a large number of them ended up deciding they shared his concerns, they could speak to Souharissen and get him to change his mind. All Nena-ongebi needed was a few nations to agree to his alliance, and the rest would quickly follow suit.

He stepped out into the biting cold winter night, shivered and pulled his clothes tight around him, and then walked to his pony, checked his saddlebag to make sure nothing was missing, stashed the copy of the Great Law of Peace he’d gotten from a Seneca scribe for a few shavings of gold, and—

“Nena-ongebi,” a young-sounding, Norse-accented voice asked, except that it wasn’t a question. He turned and saw that the speaker was indeed a Norseman barely old enough to grow a few scraggly chin-hairs.

“Yes?” the man from the Thunderbird Clan asked.

“I am Athalráthr Athalbrandsson, sent on behalf of my father, Athalbrandr Ádámsson, Chieftain of Buffalo[2],” the straw-haired boy said. “My father would be very interested in speaking with you. Tomorrow morning.”

“We’d have to ride most of the night,” Nena-ongebi protested before thinking. “Oh, right. So that no one sees Nena-ongebi leave Kandoucho land with a Norse boy matching your description and then Athalráthr Athalbrandsson entering Buffalo with a Skraeling matching my description.”

Athalráthr nodded. “Shall we go?”

# # # # #​

Niagara Falls was the end of the line for any ship coming in from the ocean and Buffalo was the only Norse port on Lake Erie, and so was a major hub of action—since it started shipping iron in from Lake Superior about a decade ago, it had begun to shape up to become the major Norse settlement on Turtle Island. During the day, the noise from smithies and shipyards was deafening, but even Buffalo was quiet and dark at night.

Nena-ongebi and Athalráthr approached the palisade gates from the East Road—which was extremely well-kept, being the major artery to Lake Onterio—and Nena-ongebi drew in breath to shout.

“No,” Athalráthr whispered.

“How are we going to let the guards know to open the gate?” Nena-ongebi asked.

“Wait here.” With that Athalráthr lead his horse around the palisade and out of the Skraeling’s view. A few minutes later, the gates were quietly opening and Athalráthr stood in the path.

Nena-ongebi rode up to him and dismounted. “How did you do that?”

“Magic.”

Nena-ongebi was led to the chieftain’s hall, which was unsurprisingly of the Norse design rather than the Iroquoian, and into the dining hall. A stout bear of a man was seated at the end of the table, and stood when the Skraeling entered.

“Nena-ongebi, I presume? I am Athalbrandr Ádámsson, Chieftain of Buffalo. Welcome to my hall; I apologize for there being no meal prepared yet and for not allowing you to rest after your journey, but we must discuss things of a sensitive nature.”

“Indeed I am Nena-ongebi of the Thunderbird Clan. And I admit to being rather curious as to why you asked me here.”

“It can be hard, to unify people against a common foe, I imagine. Even when the foe is extremely threatening—nay, especially when this is the case, for who would volunteer to lead the charge? Yours is not a task I am envious of,” Athalbrandr said.

“He gave quite a speech in Kandoucho, but the fools did not heed it,” Athalráthr supplied helpfully.

“And how do you know that?” Nena-ongebi asked.

“Magic.”

“Yes, well, perhaps the fools would be more willing to listen of you had an armory to offer the war effort,” Athalbrandr said. “I wish to make a gift.”

“Indeed. What sort of gift?”

“Two thousand swords, three thousand spears, five thousand shields, a thousand helmets, five hundred axes, and about a dozen suits of chainmail, by the time of the spring thaw.”

This shocked Nena-ongebi out of his fatigue. “That is…quite the gift.” It was enough to make him convert to Christianity, in fact.

“Lake Superior seems to have iron coming out of the ass recently. Don’t ask me how they do it, but we’ve built more than a dozen smithies in the last decade.”

“Even so. You are quite correct in your estimation that this would help my cause, but I have to ask…why?

Athalbrandr chuckled. “Looking a gift horse in the mouth, are you?” He held up a hand to cut him off. “No, you have every right to your suspicion—I would expect nothing less, in fact! The truth is that I understand why Thorkill did what he did—as you are so fond of telling everyone, he did not have a choice. The Haudenosaunee had us exactly where they wanted us. Have us exactly where they want us, rather. There aren’t enough of us in Turtle Island to take them on. But if your side were to prove victorious in the upcoming war, it would give us an excuse to make a clean break of it.”

“Yes, I do say that, and for all I say I confesss that I am still surprised about your vehemence,” Nena-ongebi admitted. “What few impositions on your culture is made by the structure of the Great Council—sachems being chosen by clan matriarchs and whatnot—can easily be manipulated and don’t very much affect your daily lives in any case, and in return you are protected by an alliance of five nations that were major players in regional politics even before they unified, and is now the most powerful nation I know of.”

“Yes, yes. But then they broke their own Great Law and restricted our trade,” Athalbrandr said. “As much as we have a reputation for being fearsome warriors, it wasn’t our swords which earned us a place on Turtle Island—well, in a sense it was, I suppose, but you know what I mean—it was our mercantile skill. My ancestors have been visiting Turtle Island ever since some Skraelings realized that by panning in a river for gold and trading what they earned with a passing longboat they could gain iron tools and spearheads. After all, this is a much easier way to make a living than hunting the great white bears of the north, as Thorkill’s grandfather could tell you, which is how he happened to be in the right place at the right time for Agetshahnit to offer to dump a homestead in his lap provided he could collect some warriors for him. What I am saying is, first and foremost we are traders. And the Haudenosaunee are restricting our trade.”

Nena-ongebi nodded. Christian, pagan, or even the odd convertee to a Skraeling faith, the true god of the Norse was gold. “I see. I would very much like to talk about this armory of yours.”

: ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ :​

[1] Yes, yes, I know, I know—I’m sorry.
[2] Athalbrandr Ádámsson’s village being built on more-or-less the same exact spot as Buffalo NY is a stark coincidence; this will not stop me from using that is its English name, however.

: ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ :​

I should probably explain the first footnote, especially considering the fact that I used my own Romanizing scheme for Nena-ongebi’s name (the Fiero orthography version has, like, seven “a”s in a row)—it’s pronounced “Nay-naw-ong-gay-be”. If you think that sounds vaguely Algonquian, you have good ears (I think). I wanted Nena to be something of the flip side of the same coin as Deganawidah, so he is likewise foreign. If you recognize Nena’s namesake as Hanging Cloud’s father, well, now you know what I was profusely apologizing for. Likewise, Chief Souharissen of the Kandoucho is named after a supposed chieftain of the Attawandaron village of Kandoucho (according to the Wikipedia).

Anyway, you’ve just learned quite a bit about the events leading up to the Norse settling in future-Haudenosaunee territory. Possibly. I do not guarantee the accuracy of Athalbrandr’s account, and I sure as hell don’t endorse its completeness. There is at least one gaping plot hole you ought to be wondering about—how the whole thing with Indians panning for gold came about. I mean, it certainly requires a pretty big leap of logic, doesn’t it? Don’t worry, I know how it happened, though. And maybe one day I’ll even tell you. Mwuh-ha-ha.
 
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That to me implies inexorable Christianization. Which is not such a bad thing if it happens gradually and filtered--and at the vast distance they are from Rome, it has to be that way.

In addition to the tendency of the religion to spread from any Christian Norse settlers, the more contact there is with Europe the more likely some active missionary effort will be made.

Then again, eventually Eurasian diseases will make their way west too. The long sea voyages tend to have a quarantine effect; anything really nasty will tend to either doom the ship or burn itself out before it makes landfall. Still, each virulent disease that manages to make the crossing will spread into any reasonably dense population in contact with the European hosts. The Norse colonists themselves won't be significantly more immune than the Native Americans they live among.

I think the arts of ocean shipping will be evolving somewhat faster than OTL, specialized toward the northwestern route to be sure, but still the pace of contact won't be tremendous when the Black Death hits Europe--and if the timing and vector of that is butterflied somewhat, the disease will come sooner or later. I believe the evidence is that it originated in India and there's no reason to think that will be butterflied; it might already have been established there in 1000 AD.

Depending on how fast and intensive transAtlantic shipping is, either the Plague will jump to Skjaldpaddey, or more likely I think, the trade link will be broken when Iceland and then Greenland are stricken. By the time of the Plague I think the Greenland colony was just about gone OTL, the Plague might have finished it off. Here I think it will be hanging on a bit better due to Atlantic trade, but not any more populous--if Plague gets there that will be the end of it, the few survivors will perforce need to either join the Inuit or flee as refugees east to Iceland or west to Skjaldpaddey. For quite some time the European-descended and influenced peoples of Skjaldpaddey will be cut off. Then presumably some Europeans will push to resume contact--eventually Plague must be brought to Skjaldpaddey.

I wouldn't have thought the Haudenosee would be densely clustered enough to sustain it, but they do have that habit of living in big communal longhouses.

And of course there are plenty of other Eurasian plagues. I am not sure why you are looking at smallpox first, I rather thought that only exploded in Europe itself much later in the Early Modern period--around the Stuart Restoration in England, I thought. But of course by then not just Plague but plenty of other pestilences had long been wrecking havoc in Britain and the rest of Europe.

I am not sure how well a stable political community can weather these breaking storms.

If they can though, while their population will be depressed when waves of European colonists start coming over, they will have had centuries to weave a network of Skjaldpadder contacts and alliances, no telling yet how far-flung--along those routes terrible diseases will have spread which will tend to weaken and sometimes destroy many OTL pre-1492 Native societies, but the survivors will be that much less vulnerable when Europeans show up in numbers.

If by then the Haudenosee/Vanadsthorpe complex is both at the center of a Skjaldpad network of alliances and also Christianized and in some sort of political relationship with patron powers in Europe, it may be only possible to incorporate it into some European power's claims on negotiated and favorable terms.

The discovery of the southern route to Skjaldpaddey, along low-latitude westbound currents and winds to the Antilles and thence to the southeastern coast in OTL Florida may well be long delayed ITTL. Everyone in Europe knows there's land to the west, and the way to get there is via Iceland and Greenland. Scholars who study globes will realize this is after the most direct route to places like China, if they could find a way around the huge "island!" They'd long ago have given up trying to force their way north through the Arctic Ocean, and if they beat past the St Lawrence mouth south along the coast they'd find it going a long way, with strong currents and prevailing winds to take them back north and west. Someone might reason that if there's a current going that way, it has to have a source, but I believe there are westbound currents north of the Gulf Stream and the European savants might figure that's the source. There'd be little reason to look for a southern westbound route until and unless someone tries to develop the route around Africa to the Indian Ocean. But I suspect Skjaldpaddey will draw off a lot of that effort and attention. Maybe the Portuguese will still try it, being isolated, preempted and distant from the Scandinavian domains. That will lead them to South America eventually. The question is, how far north from there would they have to go before they find territory already known either to European powers and/or the Haudenosee/Vanadsthorpe people? And would they be distracted from their focus on going around Africa to the East Indies (the only "Indies" in this world since Skjaldpaddey is known largely on its own terms)?

I think there's evidence that OTL the Portuguese did find South America before 1492 but kept it secret and made no efforts to explore or settle it or establish trading posts even. With no Columbus explicitly seeking a route to the west in the south because it is already known how to get to *Florida and no western passage in sight yet, or perhaps explorers traders and missionaries have already sketched out the coast all the way down to Central America and the Maya country, perhaps even crossed the narrow parts and found the Pacific but still no ocean passage to it, the Portuguese could reason there's nothing likely to be useful to them to the northwest. Or they could send an expedition to check it out and when they arrive in lands and waters already known to European scholarship, take it as proven. That still leaves the southeast coast for them to explore, if they persist in doing that they'll find Magellan's and/or Drake's Passages and probably be quite daunted by them, verifying that the Africa route is the one to develop.
 
If I remember correctly, At some point during the 12th -13th centuries the church was appointing a bishop for Greenland who was not expected to go there. It could also become so for Turtleland. If the Christians were in the minority and not very doctrinaire they might let Christianity just become one cult among many.

The Norse settlers quite likely like it that way; European ambition would see it differently.

An absentee bishop is fine for a small number of Norse settlers coming back under the control of Scandinavian kings. It actually works better for the Church-State relationship for the bishop to be handy to the European capital.

But now the European powers, noble and clerical, know there's this great big island full of pagan potential converts and subjects. It will make more sense for the Church to establish someone closer to the anticipated action; such a bishop's flock would potentially be a lot bigger than Iceland and Greenland put together ever offered.

There's another factor of course; OTL often missionary efforts were tied to particular monastic orders rather than to secular authority. A bishop generally goes hand in hand with some secular regime, generally a kingdom whose king has converted and in time-honored and Church-approved and advised fashion compels the mass conversion, at sword point as is generally necessary for at least some subjects, of the whole realm. The alternative is a missionary effort where conversion is on an individual and eventually communal basis, and the friars involved answer not to some local bishop but their superiors in the order. One barrier to establishing local "secular," that is traditional episcopal authority of the Catholic Church under bishops in the Philippines, for instance, is that there were many orders involved, each specializing in one or just a few of the numerous Filipino languages. They didn't encourage the general adoption of Spanish because reserving that for the clerics was one of the methods the Spanish regime used to keep control. The upshot was that the Philippine domain was, religiously speaking, a patchwork of overlapping monastic domains and none of them were inclined to hand over their authority to local bishoprics.

In this timeframe there's a third alternative too; the Crusades are well under way and the Military Orders have been founded. The Teutonic Knights for instance started out fighting in the "Holy Lands" and only later redirected their efforts to the Baltic, where they were still deemed to be proper Crusaders by Rome. They, a branch or offshoot of the Templars, Hospitallers, or some new Order could launch a massive and sustained effort in Skjaldpaddey--perhaps the Church would want to rename the continent in Latin as "Tortola" or some such! (Or, learning as they probably already have of the Haudenosaunee creation myth that IIRC has a turtle offering a place on its back for a deep-diving otter to place some sea-bottom mud, thus forming the basis of the solid earth, they might reject the name completely as being too pagan and insist on some other name, and I can't guess what that would be unless it's some revival of a Classical Greek or Roman name for some mythical land beyond the Pillars--hey, the Church might call it "Atlantis!" If they have any texts by Plato handy.)

A Crusading Order would be more like a convert-king than persuasive missionaries in its methods, except that they wouldn't have a local power network to build on--they'd plan on coming over in force and forcibly subjugating some domain, and ruling that domain dictatorially, build their power base. I gather from reading the Wikipedia page on the Teutonic Order that there were many bishops in their domain eventually, and these were not integrated into the Order's own hierarchy--which, while being itself a religious order, was also the secular authority, the bishops presumably answering to it and not the other way round!

So the goal of such an Order in Tortola or Atlantis or whatever they want to call it would be to establish rule over large domains, where eventually there would be many bishops locally--but the Order would presumably call the shots.

It strikes me as a grim prospect, and also one more likely to fail than perhaps the lords and clerics of Europe would realize, being so far away from its sources of power and subject to being isolated.

This would be likeliest to happen if the relationship between the Church and the local powers in Skjaldpaddey goes sour and that in turn would be what happens if the Norse settler-Christians and their converts insist on going their own way, or if there is a backlash against the Christians in general. If however the settler Christians seem to be spreading the Gospel pretty well on their own, and in turn get along tolerably well with a bishop and missionaries sent over to "assist" them, then I don't see the Papacy giving a green light to such an Order.

It could be though that while Christianization goes on apace in some parts of the western land, they run into stiff resistance in others, and if that represents a big swathe of territory there might yet be such an Order instituted!:eek: If it is drawing in part from the assistance, alliance, and membership from local Skjaldpadder Catholic powers, and only partially dependent on a stream of acolytes from footloose European noble younger sons and the like, it might well sustain itself and grow--possibly to the eventual regret of whatever local power called for its foundation and fostered it, as the Polish kings soon found the Teutonic Order wearing out its welcome!

I'm not sure how much space Skjaldpaddey can have to develop in its own way without being drawn into the vortex of the European High Middle Ages in general. Soon we could find roving Norman, Angevin, German, even Italian, not to mention of course Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, perhaps even Scottish and Irish younger sons rather thick on the ground, some in holy orders, others just trying to carve out some domain for themselves and their retainers. Italian, Flemish and Hanseatic merchants would soon follow!

But even if contact is kept down to a bare trickle as the limited seamanship of the era might impose, surely at least we will have some bishops and/or shiploads of missionary friars.
 
Regarding the latest timeline update, I'm waiting to see if Athalbrandr represents just one faction among the Norse, and there are lots of others who see themselves as insiders in the Haudenosaunee system. I guess some would be better connected than others to developing opportunities within the "Longhouse" and those less connected are reacting not just against "Skraeling" rule but other Norse too. Maybe they don't choose to see it that way though.

I'm surprised the word "Skraeling" is current among the Norse of the lakes, I'd have guessed they'd have applied it to the northerly peoples who resisted contact with them. It is, I believe, an insulting word in origin.

But of course so is "Iroquois" which would not be current here, I'd think, yet I keep using it, mainly because I can't ever remember how to spell "Haudenosaunee"--I'll try harder, pronouncing it out loud helps!:eek: but also because there are peoples who are "Iroquoian" in language and cultural roots who never got integrated into the Confederacy.

Yes, I suppose the first name the first Norse explorers of the western land applied to the first Native peoples they dealt with would become a generic term for Turtle Islanders, more so than the Norse version of that would. By the time the various native peoples learn enough Norse to get the insult they'd doubtless have come up with various insulting names for the Norse too, and hostility would be determined more by deeds than by words.

Another thing that puzzled me was the reference to "runes" on the scrolls. I know that the use of runic writing, the "futharc" (after the names of the first six letters in those alphabets) was rather widely known among North Germanic peoples and persisted in some places to modern times. But I have yet to discover a reference to any entire text written straightforwardly in a futharc as an alternative alphabet! I guess it is believed that the early Anglo-Saxons, even after conversion to Christianity, did have texts, presumably including Biblical ones, in futharc but apparently no examples have survived. The surviving texts include descriptions of the futharc and uses of futharc characters as stand-ins for the words each character is conventionally described by, kind of like using the letter "B" to stand for a flying hymenopteria of the species that make honey or the letter "C" for the ocean. Even before the Norman Conquest futharc was well on its way out as a functional alphabet in England. I haven't seen any references to any Scandinavian futharc texts! All the references I've found so far are to inscriptions and short messages.

Now, I can imagine that if the New Vinland trading/settling movement did include some impulse from disgruntled Icelandic pagans to get out from under Christian domination, one possible reaction might have been for the more intellectual among them to deliberately cultivate futharc writing for all uses, writing manuscripts in them and even books. Perhaps as part of the deal that Christian Icelanders and other Scandinavians who wanted to join in the New Vinland venture had to agree to to show good faith, they agree that official business, insofar as such a frontier early medieval community could be said to have any, would be written in futharc; perhaps the Christians as an organized community as well as individuals agreed to this and have gone so far as to write copies of the Vulgate Bible in futharc--still in Latin I imagine, since it would be considered a grave step to write an unauthorized translation of the Scriptures into some vernacular language!:p (The Vulgate itself is just that, as the name indicates--but that was into "proper" Latin of many centuries before, and it was a carefully supervised major Church project--the Church draws the line in this period at coming up with a new translation into every local dialect--the old "vulgar" tongue is of course now a new holy and esoteric one!)

It would be quite a coup for the more driven neo-Norse if they went through the trouble of devising a version of the futharc for writing down the various, um, Iroquoian languages of their hosts--or rather, pretty much started defining "standard Haudenosaunee" dialect by their choices of grammar and pronunciation implicit in their choices of spelling.

If the Christians are using the futharc too they probably actually make more texts in that alphabet than ordinary business, even official of the Thing or Jarl or whatever would. This might defuse anxieties we might anticipate various envoys from Europe, notably clerical ones, might have that the futharc are a sign of the colony relapsing wholesale into complete pagan apostasy!

A probably simpler alternative explanation: there was indeed a "futharcic" movement, but it has largely failed and both Norse and Haudenosaunee writing, and probably a number of neighbor languages including Algic, are all generally written in some version of the Latin alphabet, presumably as with pre-Conquest Old English with some letters added from the futharc and maybe new ones invented for peculiarly Skjaldpaddic sounds.

But the common word for alphabetic writing of any kind, or perhaps any sort of writing whatsoever, is "runes!" Perhaps that's the main legacy of the Old Norse revivalists in Skjaldpaddey as far as writing is concerned!

I have laid the groundwork here for references to Aztec or Mayan "runes" without anyone having to bat an eye. Or Mandarin ones for that matter. Weird scribbles intended to represent words somehow, and by extension even the familiar ones of both futharc and the Latin alphabet, are all "runes."
 
@ Shevek23:
I don't know where you're getting your information about diseases, but it's wrong. Smallpox is one of the oldest diseases on record--I'm pretty sure the only things older are Cowpox, which it evolved from, and lice. Iceland's first reported smallpox outbreak was in 1241; I plan on speeding it up to 1239 to account for a greater amount of trade--Iceland being essentially the lynchpin between two large trade networks ITTL--and so the plan was to have the North American outbreak be in 1260-ish, but I'm not entirely sold on it.

Also, I've seen it postulated that Yersinia pestis comes from Mongolia (in which case butterflying away the Black Death is almost arbitrarily easy) or Africa, but never India. Ironically, though, if Y. pestis were to magically find it's way to North America, it probably wouldn't even be noticed. Bubonic plague is carried by the fleas which are carried by rats, and the peoples in North America generally have far superior hygiene to what can be found in Europe.

I doubt that it will result in any sort of large-scale European invasion, as the technology for such won't be there yet. Besides, it won't look as bad as it is from Europe on account of the fact that the Norse have been swapping genes up and down the Atlantic seaboard for centuries. It will likely result in a lot of conversions to Christianity in the immediate aftermath, and then smallpox becomes endemic. The next disease to hit won't end up being nearly as bad, no matter what it is, being denied virgin ground.

Yeah, Skraeling was an insult, but words change in meaning/connotation, and really, what word for foreigner wasn't an insult back then?

I am sorely tempted to go with your idea about futharcic resurgence. But if I can confirm your claim that runes were going out of style, I'll probably just go back and Orwellian Retcon the reference out of existence.

Wow, you certainly seem to know a lot about the history of Christianity. The *Great Law of Peace protects the freedom of religion, so I figure that Haudenosaunee Christians would send for a bishop, and I'm thinking based on your description that the Church would send monastic missionaries instead, but I would consider it a personal favor if you would weigh in on that.

While I'm on the subject of that, everybody: how long would such a trip from Lake Ontario to the Vatican take?
 
Shevek
there are lots of texts in runes, although, yes they are not whole documents, afaik. They have mostly been found in archaeolgical excavaton, though. Birka springs to mind....

I agree that some variant of the latin alphabet is more likely, though.

I COULD see a pagan subset of society keeping runes and spurning the Roman.christian alphabet.
 
I must congratulate you this is really quite good! So often we get TLs about Norse contact that are just plain insulting. I like where you're going with this too, I just have one problem:

...
Niagara Falls was the end of the line for any ship coming in from the ocean and Buffalo was the only Norse port on Lake Erie, and so was a major hub of action—since it started shipping iron in from Lake Superior about a decade ago, it had begun to shape up to become the major Norse settlement on Turtle Island. During the day, the noise from smithies and shipyards was deafening, but even Buffalo was quiet and dark at night.
...

The real barrier to trans-Atlantic shipping are the Lachine Rapids they were pretty much impassable by anything either the Norse, the Six Nations or the various Algonquin or Objibway groups. It is one of the main reasons for European settlement on the island of Montreal.
Also, iron from Lake Superior would likely be stalled at the Sault Ste Marie rapids before needing to be portaged overland, so you my need to address that as well.
Buffalo is a good spot if you're getting ore from the Sudbury area though as it drains into Lake Huron which has no significant rapids or falls until Niagara.
 
A couple of nitpicks. First, the Norse element, sad as I am to say, would indeed be Christian. Iceland was long Christianized by this point and Lief's expedition was also Christian. While -thorp is indeed a Scandinavian element made popular in northern England by Scandinavian settlement, I find Vanadsthorp to be an unlikely name due to the Christianity of its populace.

Second, futhorc was the Anglo-Saxon runic alphabet, so it's no wonder that you're having no luck in finding references to Scandinavian futharc texts. What you're looking for is futhark. Again, given the Christianity of the Norse element, it seems likely to me that the Latin alphabet will be used.
 
@ farwalker:
...Well, crap. That actually punches a major hole in my schenario. I don't suppose there's a way around Lachine? There appears to be two alternate channels. Or I suppose Vikings could pick their longboats up and carry them around the rapids. Or for some unknown reason the locals build a canal, though that would take some explaining on my part.

The Sault Ste Marie rapids may not be a problem. It means that the Norse would be trading through the Ojibwe no matter what, and I still can't figure out whether or not they'd migrated to all corners of Lake Superior yet (of course I have more pressing concerns, what with the upcoming war and all; I'm trying to read up on the Beaver Wars to get some idea what the strategy and tactics might be). If not, perhaps trade revenue generates an earlier conquest phase? It's very tempting to make Lake Superior an Ojibwe, well, lake (I think I just invented the single entendre).

I've never actually seen any other Vinland timelines here (I suppose you could argue that this isn't a Vinland timeline, but that would be splitting hairs), but let me guess: The poor natives have never heard of war or land ownership before the big bad Vikings come along and they are quickly overrun.

@ everyone:
*melodramatically/exaggeratedly throws up hands*
Alright. I'm removing the reference to runes already.

No one else seems to find it odd that pagans would still be a major part of the society, Saurian. Some of Leif Eriksson's companions were pagans. I could also use the "it's an ATL" excuse, but logically it would make more sense for Christianity to be stronger amongst the Norse ITTL than it is IOTL, for secret inside reasons known only to me (thusfar).

Also, because I didn't really address this in my last reply to Shevek:

The New Vinland position on the whole being forced to join the Haudenosaunee thing is more varried than what is represented by Athalbrandr. There's at least four positions on the topic: there are those who agree with Athalbrandr (obviously), there are those who dislike the idea of living under Skraeling rule under any circumstances (Athalbrandr's problem is based on the actions the Haudenosaunee have taken, mind), there are those who dislike the resolution but understand its necessity--New Vinland is part of the Haudenosaunee now, so selling advanced weapons to the enemies of the Haudenosaunee is a basic Darwinian error--and there are those who don't have any problem with it or the Haudenosaunee. The war itself, however, will be mainly Indian vs. Indian.
 
@ farwalker:
...Well, crap. That actually punches a major hole in my schenario. I don't suppose there's a way around Lachine? There appears to be two alternate channels. Or I suppose Vikings could pick their longboats up and carry them around the rapids. Or for some unknown reason the locals build a canal, though that would take some explaining on my part.
...


Unfortunately, there isn't a good way around the rapids at Montreal, that's why they built a canal. But don't despair, Bufffalo is still a excellent point for trade in heavy raw materials to go to, get refined and then shiped up Lake Ontario to Montreal aka "Hochelaga" where they then could be sent accross the Atlantic. This also works to your advantage as Montreal is pretty much at the end of the Ottawa river which reaches far up North and was a great comerce river OTL. Norse Longboats also have several advantages here in that they can better navigate the shallows along the 1,000 Islands and the St. Lawrence & Ottawa rivers than the OTL European explorers with their heavy draft caravels.

P.S. I liked the runes. I thought they added a necessary "otherness" that all good TLs require
 
No one else seems to find it odd that pagans would still be a major part of the society, Saurian.

Sorry, but I've read the sagas and I'd have reason to look for Heathen survival. Leifr's mission to Greenland was to convert the Greenland colonists to Christianity, and he was quite fervent in it. Rather than name the town for Freya herself, keep the name but have it be in honor of Freydis, Leifr's sister.

And why not? She was the hero of the Vinland story. The men ran from the skraelings, she stood her ground and scared them off, pregnant and all. She'd certainly have been remembered by whoever founded the colony in my Upstate homeland.
 
@ farwalker:
Oh, you needn't worry about this timeline lacking otherness. Even before the smallpox plague hits the eastern seaboard will be completely unrecognizable, what with all those horses and fornicating Nords running around and borrowing so many loan words from Norse, and already my head is full of ideas like butterflying away Ghengis Kahn, the Muslims keeping Iberia, a standoff between the Iroquois and Ojibwe on one side and Cahokia on the other, missionaries running around Nahua territory trying not to be sacrificed, Japanese landing in California, a Nicaragua canal being dug by not-Aztecs, a not-Aztec empire having naval battles with a not-Inca one, and while we're on the subject of the gunpowder age and navies, I can't help thinking that St. Joseph Island looks an awful lot like Lock Island.

@ EvolvedSaurian:
Eh. I still think I'm right, but it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.
 
Oooh, awesome ideas!

The premise is awesome, the story itself is awesome, and the future looks to be a very bright one indeed for this story!

I love it!
 
This is why I love this site.

A timeline about.. umm.. Vikings? Native Americans? I forget exactly because by the time I got to the end of it I had just waded through a linguistic discussion of what a bunch of vikings would call a turtle. :D


(But really, I'm enjoying this one. Subscribed.)
 
Oooh, awesome ideas!
Of course, I have no idea what I'm going to do with all of Navajo country. *sigh*
The premise is awesome, the story itself is awesome, and the future looks to be a very bright one indeed for this story!

I love it!
Now see what you did!!

I started reading it for fun...now I am hooked:p
Thank you all for reading.

Anyhow, that whole Montreal thing is seriously bothering me. I figure the Vikings could just pick up their longboats and hump it around the rapids, but that's going to take some motivation to get them to do it on a regular basis before there's a colony in NY, by which I mean gold.

Your mission should you chose to accept it, internets, is to find some place upriver of Montreal where Indians can pan for gold once the knowledge spreads to them (via conquest, rumor, trade, or spies) and is close enough for the people at Montreal to tell the Norse about it when they visit. Me, I'll be looking into who actually lived around Montreal in the first place.
 
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