Sweet Dew: A Tang China Timeline

The next update. Expect more about China for the next two updates. As always, comments and critiques are welcome.

Sweet Dew: Update 18 (The Chen Downfall, Part 2)

Luo Yuan (羅沅) was a disgruntled farmer living in the outskirts of Datong, Shanxi, when the Chen Empire raised taxes in 1189. In order to pay the costs of the conflict against the rebels Zheng Yue (鄭岳), Qin Yu (秦鈺), and Gong Cunzhang (龔存璋), the imperial court decided to raise taxes on all land. Luo Yuan, who cultivated barely above subsistence level, had always been one tax raise away from destitution. The edict of 1189 was too much for him to handle, on top of a devastating famine that swept through the province just one year prior. That year in August, he chose to rise up in revolt against local authorities. He was followed in quick succession by tworebels he inspired: Lu Ziying (路子盈) and Tian Cheng (田誠). Tian and Luo both raised up their own armies, joined forces and attacked the provincial magistrate's office. Following their success, they moved to the north and attacked Taiyuan, seat of Zhang Yiren (張以仁), the governor of Shanxi. Zhang, however, had assembled his own forces, effectively creating a private army in violation of Chen rules. He attacked Luo Yuan in central Shanxi but failed to capture the rebel. In the meantime, he headed south to attack Lu Ziying, but his forces were defeated by Lu's men and he was routed.

The Imperial Court, already irritated at Zhang's failure in the south, decided to replace Zhang and sent Shi Jiong (石炯) to the north. The fall-out prompted Zhang to rebel. The imperial court armed Shi Jiong to fight Zhang and Ma Xunwei (馬遜威) to deal with Luo Yuan and Lu Ziying. At this point, the imperial court finally began to splinter. Though imperial officials were in unison when it came to the operations against the southern rebels, Zhang Yiren's revolt terrified them. One group of officials, led by Huang Chengxi (黃承熙), saw Zhang's revolt as an indicator of Chen decay. Huang also advocated closer watch on the generals, seeing them as a return to the lawlessness of the late Tang Dynasty, particularly the idea of reinforcing the central palace guard instead of stationing generals outside of the capital. Opposing him was Liang Xiao (梁嘯), who also opposed giving the generals more autonomy, but suggested that the state would be better served by generals across the country, as opposed to being stationed in the capital, away from the action.

In the meantime, the Emperor decided to follow in the advice of both bureaucrats by reinforcing the capital garrison as well as stationing soldiers across the country. Meanwhile, Shi and Ma continued to fight in Shanxi, to only middling success. The elderly Ma had managed to defeat most of Lu Ziying's forces, but grew ill and asked to be relieved of command: the Emperor granted this and Ma went into retirement. However, this granted Lu Ziying some precious time, and he rebuilt up his forces by drawing from other affected communities. Shi, on the other hand, was relatively unsuccessful and was defeated by Zhang Yiren several times. Ma's replacement was Yao Tingwu (姚庭武), who did not have Ma's success, and Yao's campaign saw many defeats. However, things were not considered catastrophic until Yao was defending the city of Taiyuan when Lu Ziying returned with troops in force. Lu was assisted by heavy floods in 1191, and chose to breach the levies around Taiyuan, flooding the city, destroying its walls, and forcing Yao to surrender. Lu captured Yao, who committed suicide in captivity.

Zhang had success against Shi, who was defeated several times. At Datong, Shi chose to flee when Zhang's troops approached. Shi fled to the area of Hebei, where he assembled troops only to see them wiped out when Zhang attacked him first. Shi managed to escaped to Shandong, where the local governor, Tao Shiqi (陶士奇) gave him temporary shelter. Tao resumed the offensive against Zhang under imperial orders, fighting against Zhang's troops who had intruded into Shandong, but refusing to go further into Shanxi province itself. As far as Tao was concerned, the imperial court could deal with that issue: he was already dealing with local peasant unrest in his own province. His battles against Zhang never amounted to more than a token effort, but Tao refused to contribute more.

Zhang, however, was killed not by imperial troops but by his officer Wang Jiansan (王建三) in an attempted takeover of Zhang's rebellion. Zhang was killed while staying at the house of a local farmer. Wang responded by burning the house and killing Zhang when he fled. Wang was opposed by Zhang's other officers, and one of these men, Liao Chuanghuan (廖創煥), managed to get the support of most of Zhang Yiren's men and force Wang out. Wang escaped from Liao's territory and headed for Henan. However, Chen forces caught him and executed him, never knowing that he had intended to defect back to the Chen. Liao, a former Chen officer who had served Zhang in Jiangxi, was willing to seek a truce with the Chen. This turned out to be immensely valuable.

Luo Yuan in 1189 was a farmer, thirty years old, with no military experience and a rather naïve conception of imperial politics. He had hoped that by revolting against Zhang Yiren he could lower taxes in his province and return to his life as a peasant. By 1192, Luo was a general, thirty-three years old, with plenty of experience fighting the Chen. He still hoped that he could return to his old life, preferably to live a comfortable life, and persuade the Emperor to lower taxes and fire his corrupt officials. For example, in one 1192 message, Luo mentioned Huang Chengxi, a corrupt bureaucrat, and Pei Zhao (裴釗), an old eunuch, in particular. In 1193, Pei was indeed executed on imperial command for bribery and corruption, though this was attributed more to his loss of power and influence after his patron, Empress Li (李皇后), had died. Huang Chengxi retained influence for a considerable period of time.

Shi Jiong was replaced by Yang Xun (楊勳), who was sent north to fight against Liao Chuanghuan after Zhang Yiren had died. Yang, who had been a general in the war against Gong Cunzhang, was brought out of retirement, as he had been the youngest of the major generals in that war, while his comrades had all passed away that year in 1193. However, Yang died in the same plague that killed many of his soldiers as well, and he never fought Liao's men. Yang's successor was his chief general, Cheng Wuyi (程武義). Cheng aggressively tried to win over Liao's men. One of Liao's generals, Dou Yun (竇贇), was persuaded to work for Cheng instead on the condition that he and his men would receive an imperial pardon regardless of the success of Cheng's battles. In a secret gambit, Dou led his soldiers away from Liao Chuanghuan's main force. However, Cheng could not bring his forces in time, and Liao managed to survive the next few battles.

Cheng immediately reneged on his agreement with Dou and had the rebel exiled to the far south. Liao continued his battles against Cheng. At that point, the imperial court grew impatient. Liang Xiao suggested that the Emperor could appoint a special general to command all military forces in the north. Huang's suggestion was to bring up a general from the capital's reserves, but Liang pointed out that the men in the capital were inexperienced. The Emperor agreed, appointing Bai Wenlong (白文龍) as a general with special powers. Bai would command the following commanders: Tao Shiqi, governor of Shandong; Cheng Wuyi, the top general for Shanxi; Yu Zhengkai (于正凱), the governor of the rump province of Shanxi; Kuang Daji (鄺大吉), the governor for Henan; and Zhou Yongxian (周永顯), the top general for Henan. Hebei was left out of the arrangement, as it was considered too important as a border province.

Bai Wenlong was a protege of Li Qing (李卿), who had died in 1192. Li was considered the most successful of the generals in fighting Zheng Yue and Gong Cunzhang, and Bai was considered his most reliable subordinate. After the war against Zheng and Gong, he was posted to the south to make sure the south did not revolt again. Bai knew that only coordination could defeat Luo Yuan, Lu Ziying, and Liao Chuanghuan. It had been coordination that defeated the Jiangxi revolts, after all. Bai ordered all four of his subordinates to send him troops for one push against all three rebels. Tao Shiqi refused, unimpressed by Bai's credentials. Liang Xiao tried to get Tao relieved, but the court was worried Tao would revolt too. Instead, the court waited just four months, until Tao's term ended. Tao was replaced by Wan Liang (萬諒).

Bai moved into Shanxi from the west, while Wan invaded from the east, and Kuang invaded from the south. Bai quickly moved rendezvoused with Cheng and his forces, while Kuang and Wan had to overcome some resistance as they fought Luo Yuan's soldiers. Cheng ordered Kuang and Wan to both attack Luo at his headquarters in southeast Shanxi. However, Wan and Kuang were inexperienced and slow while Luo had knowledge of the terrain and experience. For civil officials like Wan and Kuang, military affairs were beneath them. Luo and his men encircled Wan's force and destroyed it, while they ran Kuang's forces out of Shanxi and into Henan. However, Luo's reserves were depleted, and Luo chose to move into Shandong, leaving Lu Ziying and Liao Chuanghuan for Shanxi. In Shandong, Luo Yuan found a largely undefended province, and resistance was spotty and weak. Wan abandoned the province and fled south.

The capture of Shandong changed Luo Yuan's ambitions. He found himself, at the age of 34, running one of the more populous provinces in China. The highest provincial officials had abandoned the province as Luo approached, but many of the low-rank officials stayed behind. A local magistrate, Zhuang Xiaode (莊孝德), ingratiated himself amongst Luo's movement, as one of the rare former Chen officials to go over to Luo's side. Tian Cheng tried to persuade Luo to remain loyal to the Chen. However, Luo grew suspicious of Tian and thought his ally was trying to undermine him. In his paranoia, Luo ordered Tian's execution. Tian's death allowed Zhuang to increase his influence on Luo. Under Zhuang's persuasive advice, Luo decided to declare his own dynasty, named Song (宋). However, Zhuang heavily underestimated the support that the Chen had amongst the populace. Shanxi was poor and overtaxed, while Shandong was relatively well-run and at the very least had avoided Shanxi's run of drought, followed by flooding, followed by drought, followed by drought again, and then flooding during the 1179-1189 decade.

When Luo Yuan declared his Song Dynasty in 1193, many of the people of his occupied territories rose up in revolt against him as well. Though Luo had some support amongst the more indigent members of the population, attracted to his message of ending corruption and assisting the peasantry, many more people suspected him of just trying to amass power for himself. However, Zhuang and Luo implemented an authoritarian regime in their territories in Shandong. They executed many remaining Chen officials and placed their favorites in command instead. Zhuang, taking command of civil affairs, ordered the confiscation of supplies and food from the local people, who responded by sabotaging their supplies. Peasants and merchants alike began killing Zhuang's agents in the countryside. At the same time, Luo also began to take some of the local women as his concubines, distracting him from his duties.

However, there was little that the Chen authorities could have done. After Wan Liang and Kuang Daji had been defeated, there was little that Bai Wenlong could have done. There were only so many officials in the empire that could be posted as governors, and the empire was beginning to run short of qualified officials. In the meantime, while Luo Yuan had left Shanxi, Lu Ziying and Liao Chuanghuan proved to be just as difficult to deal with. Lu Ziying and Liao Chuanghuan finally began to clash with each other, fighting over a diminishing resource supply. Lu's strategy was to wait for the inevitable clash between Liao and the Chen.

Liao and Bai Wenlong resumed fighting in 1193, and Liao proved himself to be more than a match for at least Cheng Wuyi, whose troops suffered defeats. Cheng's troops began to desert the Chen cause, going over to Liao's side. Liao and his men then began fighting the main force under Bai Wenlong. This was when Bai proved that he was more capable than his commanders, and an equal to his mentor, Li Qing. Bai's troops went on the offensive, but slowed down to await the inevitable defection of Liao's men. They then resumed the offensive, allowing Bai to defeat Liao in several more battles. Threatening with heavy siege weaponry, Bai was able to force Liao's strongholds to surrender without a great deal of fighting. Bai was so successful, in fact, that Liao was thinking of surrendering and ending the conflict as a whole. Unfortunately for Liao, Bai was not very concerned with surrender. He amassed his troops and destroyed Liao's last forces in the grass plains west of Shanxi. Liao committed suicide, and the revolt that started with Zhang Yiren finally ended.

Bai then attempted to turn his troops against Lu Ziying, but was caught by surprise. In a fluke defeat, Bai was killed by an arrow while fighting Lu Ziying's troops. Command of Chen troops fell to Cheng Wuyi instead. Cheng lacked Bai's skill, and the perimeter of troops around Lu Ziying was allowed to lapse. Cheng had ordered Yu Zhengkai to use local troops to secure the province. Yu had to deal with an utterly shattered system of provincial administration, lacking even the couriers to notify Cheng of Lu's movement. Lu and his troops, numbering in the tens of thousands, found a gap in the Chen lines, and seized the chance. It was at that moment in 1194, when Lu Ziying slipped through the Chen troops surrounding Shanxi, that Luo Yuan's troops attacked Cheng.
 
I just wanted to say I've been following this timeline with interest. I'm afraid I can't really comment on anything else, as I have a complete lack of knowledge on this period in Chinese history. Nevertheless, great work.
 
I just wanted to say I've been following this timeline with interest. I'm afraid I can't really comment on anything else, as I have a complete lack of knowledge on this period in Chinese history. Nevertheless, great work.
I'm glad you like it. However, I'm trying to decide between continuing the timeline or re-writing chunks of it. I'll base my decision based on the responses I get.
 

scholar

Banned
I'm glad you like it. However, I'm trying to decide between continuing the timeline or re-writing chunks of it. I'll base my decision based on the responses I get.
Eastern timelines tend not to garner many responses, so I wouldn't place too high a premium on the responses you'll get.

Personally I like the timeline.
 
Eastern timelines tend not to garner many responses, so I wouldn't place too high a premium on the responses you'll get.

Personally I like the timeline.
Oh, thanks again.

Alright, readers, here's the deal. There are two choices: continue the timeline, or rewrite. If I can get an odd number of people (more than one person, by the way) to choose, and there's a majority for one option, then I'll go with that option. Everybody has till Sunday to make their decision. If there's a tie, I'll cast a deciding vote in favor of re-writing.
 

FDW

Banned
Oh, thanks again.

Alright, readers, here's the deal. There are two choices: continue the timeline, or rewrite. If I can get an odd number of people (more than one person, by the way) to choose, and there's a majority for one option, then I'll go with that option. Everybody has till Sunday to make their decision. If there's a tie, I'll cast a deciding vote in favor of re-writing.

I'm strongly in favor of continue, because most attempts at rewrites have tended to stall out well before the original left off.
 
Alright, readers, here's the deal. There are two choices: continue the timeline, or rewrite. If I can get an odd number of people (more than one person, by the way) to choose, and there's a majority for one option, then I'll go with that option. Everybody has till Sunday to make their decision. If there's a tie, I'll cast a deciding vote in favor of re-writing.

I would slightly lean towards rewriting it, although it really depends on how much you're planning on editing. Rewriting lets readers comprehensively understand the storyline as a whole, so if the changes are significant, it can become more streamlined. However, continuing allows you to retain your train of thought, and lets you continuously make updates without much delays. In any case, you'll probably need to be more flexible with making several edits sporadically, if necessary, so that they don't pile up over time.

Your timeline as a whole is extremely detailed, so if you're not planning on significantly changing the main details, then you should probably just continue writing. However, regardless of your decision, you'll probably need to revisit at least a handful of posts to see what needs to be tweaked or fixed, so it's really up to you. I would also advise you to focus more on writing updates that each cover a few decades, instead of a century or more, as that approach would probably make it easier to follow your presentation.

I hope that helps.
 
Instead of a rewrite per se, you could try approaching what you have so far from a new angle, like cultural or philosophical.
 
I'm strongly in favor of continue

Seconded. (filler)

Edit: I suggest not a complete rewrite, but China doesn't exist isolated apart from the rest of the world. It fights nomads in the north of itself, some of which will migrate over to Europe and/or the Middle East. China also contests Central Asia with the Turks there, the Tibetans and Indians to the southwest of itself also influence China somewhat, and etc...

With a POD of 835, 300 years is enough to have butterflies reach Europe and back, so it would be better if you include updates from elsewhere.
 
The next update. I'll give it a few more hours before I address the votes and decide on a course of action.

Sweet Dew: Update 19 (The Chen Downfall, Part 3)

In March of 1194, the troops of Lu Ziying marched out from Shanxi towards the capital at Luoyang. They had evaded the forces of Cheng Wuyi as they moved out of Shanxi, but returned to encircle Chen troops on the Henan-Shanxi border. The two forces met in pitched battle outside the city of Jincheng.

Coordination between Chen imperial governors had been extremely poor. Cheng was based in southern Shanxi at the city of Jincheng, but as area commander, maintained a separate army under the command of a subordinate, Feng Xi (馮熹) in Anyang in Henan. Just a few weeks before, Lu's troops had skirmished with provincial troops in Handan, but Hebei governor Deng Xiang (鄧祥) never bothered to inform Cheng Wuyi. Lu's troops had attempted to cross into Hebei, but Deng's forces repulsed them right after Lu's men crossed the mountain passes between Shanxi and Hebei. Deng Xiang did not order his men to pursue, either. Feng Xi never seized the initiative to attack anybody on his own, either.

At this point, the imperial court had a rather optimistic view of its own security. Liao Chuanghuan was defeated and Luo Yuan was rather distant in Shandong. It was thought that Cheng Wuyi, in southern Shanxi, would be able to defeat Lu Ziying, as Lu's rebellion was seen as being on its last legs. However, Luo Yuan's Song troops attacked Liang Xi in Anyang, forcing Feng to retreat. Feng exaggerated the scope of his defeat in his pleas for help to Cheng. Cheng, fearing that Luo Yuan was going to march ordered another subordinate, Wang Liang (汪良), to take command of Chen troops in Jincheng as he rushed to Anyang to attack Luo Yuan instead. However, Wang Liang lacked experience. Cheng had thought that Lu Ziying was too close to defeat to try anything drastic. As such, Wang underestimated Lu. That march, Lu first attacked the Chen city of Jincheng, which had once fallen into Lu's hands but had been recovered at great cost. Lu and about ten or so thousand men surrounded Jincheng, but the move was a feint. While Cheng Wuyi was away in Henan and Wang You was trapped at Jincheng, Lu moved the rest of his entire force, another 10,000 men, south of Jincheng and towards the Chen imperial capital at Luoyang. At the same time, after a few weeks, Lu lifted his siege of Jincheng and predicted that Wang You would not attack Lu's men as they moved south. He proved correct. After the siege of Jincheng was lifted, Wang You merely asked for more orders from Cheng.

Lu and his men emerged onto the North China Plain, and the imperial capital panicked. Nominally, the Emperor had 200,000 men under his command in the capital, divided into a palace guard of about 30,000 men, about 20,000 men for policing the city, and 150,000 men as reserves. However, by 1194, the first two groups were poorly armed and poorly trained, while the last group existed mostly on paper. Theoretically, the commander of all these men was Guo Zhao (郭照), a general. However, Guo had only seen combat experience, serving general Yan Bing. Guo was considered morally upright but mediocre in talent. In any event, Guo had few ties to the troops that did obey his authority. The palace guard were the only reasonably armed soldiers in Luoyang at the time, as the capital guards dealt mostly with low-level law-enforcement. The palace guard commander was Song Jie (宋傑), a brave but likewise inexperienced general who had never seen combat.

The chief ministers of empire were divided in their responses to Lu. The hated Huang Chengxi, reviled for his corruption and greed, suggested that Lu could be bought. Huang first suggested lowering the taxes on rebellious provinces and next suggested that by making Lu a general in the Chen army and paying him huge sums of money, the revolt would die down. After all, Huang pointed out, Lu's rebellion was motivated by the poverty of the northern steppes. If taxes were relieved, there would be no problem.

Cao Mu (曹木) was less conciliatory. As Cao saw it, the imperial capital was already being starved of tax revenue. If taxes on the northern steppes were lowered, the capital would be even dependent on the rest of the empire. The lower Yangtze valley had just revolted, the upper Yangtze valley was getting restless, and the far south could only be pressed so far before taxation became just as oppressive. Cao thought that only overwhelming force would convince current and future rebels that the empire could not be coerced.

The Emperor, then Jia Huan (賈桓), was 35 in 1194. The Emperor never quite secure in his power. Though far more active than his despotic father, Jia was still forced to depend on a handful of ministers who had climbed up the career ladder and had no intention of retiring. Huang Chengxi was only the most prominent and powerful. As a descendant of Huang Zuoren, another Chen minister, Huang already had family connections due to his grandfather's powerful connections. In addition, Huang had the support of many eunuchs through his personal friendship with Jiang Cun (蔣存), the most powerful of the eunuchs, the overseer of the imperial harem. Jia Huan had desired to ask Huang to retire several times, in 1190, 1192 and 1193. In each time, he made the mistake of telling Jiang Cun about the idea. Every time, the day before he was to be relieved, Huang would make an impassioned defense of his imperial service to the emperor and ministers and requesting to continue in his job. It would have been a great loss of face for Jia to fire his minister after such an outburst, and Jia dropped the matter.

Cao Mu, on the other hand, represented another strain of Confucian minister. Unlike Huang, who was despised for corruption, Cao was seen as upright. Guo Zhao and Song Jie were seen as members of Cao's party, following the paradigm of the upright minister and general. However, despite Cao's personal virtues, he genuinely espoused a belief in military force that was considered extravagant even by the day's standards. When Huang suggested amnestying the rebels, Cao and Guo pleaded to the emperor that Chen forces be allowed to utterly annihilate Lu Ziying and his men. Jia Huan, tired of Huang's persistence, gave the order to Guo Zhao and Song Jie to destroy Lu Ziying.

Due to the delays of organizing the capital defense effort, Guo realized that the cities between the Yellow River and Jincheng could not be defended. Instead, Guo mustered the forces of the capital to meet Lu near the Yellow River instead. At a battlefield north of Luoyang, just as Lu Ziying's men crossed the Yellow River, Guo sent Song and the entirety of the Chen capital force to meet Lu Ziying's rebel forces in a battle that saved the Chen Dynasty from immediate destruction.

At a first glance, the sides did not look evenly matched. Lu Ziying had 30,000 men. Song Jie had 60,000. Lu had no cavalry. Song had 3,000 cavalrymen, a mixture of swordsmen and lancers. Lu had no supply line to reinforce his men, nor did he have reinforcements at all. Song had both. There was only one critical element that Lu possessed that Song did not: Lu had experience in battle.

That March, when Lu and Song's forces met in battle, Lu already suspected that Song would attack as he was crossing the Yellow River, since his troops would be at their most vulnerable. His strategy, then, was to split his forces: about 3,000 of his weakest men would cross the river first, to serve essentially as targets. Lu hoped that his main force could cross while the vanguard was being destroyed. A third group of soldiers would cross the river upstream and attack the Chen troops from behind. Song had no such overarching strategy. His idea was that Chen soldiers would destroy all of Lu's soldiers at once. To his credit, Song kept his cavalry force in reserve, under another general, Tang You (唐佑).

After several days of hostility, with Lu and Song's camps set up on opposing sides of the Yellow River, Lu decided that Song was not going to strike force. In the early morning, at around 9:00 AM, Lu sent his first and third forces in. As first group crossed the river, Song ordered his men to first fire their arrows at Lu's force. After taking heavy damage, about half of that first force succeeded in crossing the river, at which point Song's men went forward and attacked it. The sacrifice succeeded: by the time Song's men had dealt with the first group, the main group had crossed the river on boats requisitioned from local villagers. The resulting melee, starting from about 11:00, lasted for three hours and resulted in many dead. Song's men were in formations too dense to maneuver well, and their lack of experience resulted in many men dropping their weapons and fleeing. Only Song's presence prevented the battle from becoming a route. At the same time, Tang You seized the initiative when his scouts spied Lu's men upriver. Tang and about half of Song's cavalry met that force of 3,000 men. The heavily-armed cavalry succeeded in routing that force as it tried to cross the river.

By 2:00 in the afternoon, Lu Ziying realized that his encirclement strategy was all for nought, and personally joined the fighting. By then, the outnumbered rebels grew weary and became demoralized. A few minutes later, Tang You had reassembled the rest of Song's cavalry and joined the fray, terrifying the rebels. The ensuing bloodbath lasted only a few minutes before Lu's men broke ranks and were destroyed. Though most of his men were captured, Lu escaped that humiliation only through his death: he drowned in the Yellow River as he was trying to flee. Lu Ziying's rebellion was broken that day at the Battle of the Yellow River, and Luoyang was saved. Later historians would postulate that, if Tang You's cavalrymen did not spot Lu's third group, the resulting encirclement might have led to Song Jie's defeat. In that case, the almost-defenseless Luoyang would have been ripe for the taking. However, other historians would point out that Lu's men would still have been weakened by even a victory, which would never have been anything more than Pyrrhic. Luoyang may have lacked defenders, but it did not lack walls. The Emperor may have been safe even if Song Jie had failed.

One thing was certain, regardless of the alternate histories put forth: Lu Ziying was defeated, while Song Jie and Tang You were feted. The Chen empire began to grow only more secure.
 
I almost forgot: I kept telling myself I would go back and address criticisms, but I put it off for a decent while. Thus, I have decided to go back and finish what I started and describe what changes I will or won't take. If I don't mention an issue, it's because I don't consider it particularly valid or because I consider it irrelevant, and I won't discuss it in the future. If anybody feels strongly about any issues, I prefer response by PM:

Post 54
In retrospect, perhaps 860 is a bit early for them to rebel. I'm thinking of bumping this to 880 or sometime even later. I will make only a few changes, in retrospect: I'm changing Chin (秦) to Chin (辰) for the historical connection to the Chinhan. I'm also keeping Taehyŏn (太玄) and Chŏngso (定昭) as names, though I think I might make Chin the state that wins instead of Chŏngso, since I've grown weary of the name. I'm still planning on dividing the Korean Peninsula by having the three states: one in the north, one in the center, one in the south, but I haven't thought about where each will be based. The rump Silla state may go away completely, so one state will be centered on the Nakdong or south of it, another on the Taedong, and another on the Han. The Kŭm will be decided later, but might go to either the Nakdong River state (which would be Chin) or the Han River state (which might be Taehyŏn or Chŏngso).

Post 61
I agree, a northern state would be militarily weak. It won't present a threat, and it will be destroyed by the state on the Han River, and I will still decide if the state on the Han is destroyed by the state on the Nakdong.

Post 64
I still intend to have the northern state rebuild what was once Pyŏngyang.

Post 66
Perhaps Parhae and the middle state will align with each other against the northern state. Or the northern state might align with the northern state against the middle state. But Parhae's participation in Korea's Later Three Kingdoms was minimal historically, so it will likely be minimal here. The southern state may deal with the rump Silla government as well. These have not been decided yet.

Post 71
I think I mentioned that Cheju was captured before Wando. If I didn't, that's my explanation.

Post 74
I will write be writing Korea's history differently, though I will maintain the Khitan conquest.

Post 77
The Khitan War will probably be shorter in the new version I write, and may or may not involve a few generals and a few real coups.

Post 79
The Khitans will take over the remnants of Parhae in a quicker fashion that in my original timeline.

Post 81
I meant Khitan settlement, as well as Jurchen. The Korean state, whatever I name it, will not be considered an empire and will not name itself as such.

Post 87
Because I don't have an accurate date as to when Mount Paektu (or Changbai) erupted, I will not mention one specifically in my timeline. I can mention an eruption or a sequence of minor eruptions in passing, but I will not make that the cause of Parhae's defeat since I haven't seen enough evidence in secondary literature for it. I can drop the Righteous Army nomenclature though. That is not a big deal.

Post 88
If I don't see a need to change something, I probably won't. That includes reducing coverage of an area that I don't think is worth my time to write about.

Post 93
Nothing important to address.

Post 95
Alright, I can work with that. For now.

There were other issues that were brought up that were either interesting or debatable, but I don't feel like they have a place here, so I didn't mention them.
 
Fascinating, not many well-thought Chinese althist are present, they're mostly either wanks or just written by those who have little understanding of Asian history in general.

Anyways, not mu ch to say as I haven't thoroughly wnet over the entire time-line... But a "glaring" problem is the posthumous names of the emperors and the dynastic names.... I know it's going to be a hassel to change it again, but I just want to say that posthumous names can not be interpreted directly through Chinese-English translations (as you have done with Yuanzong: 元宗), the meaning must be understood through historical usages and the actions of previous Emperors of other dynasties...Also, sarcasm may also be employed (such as the case for the OTL Tang Wenzong (唐文宗)and Tang Wuzong(唐武宗))....Your best bet is to use the Book of Zhou Customs (周礼)to find the actual meanings for each titles (assuming that you're familiar with the Chinese language due to your fluent usage of chinese names and characters...or that could just be google translate and copy-paste)...But then again, this is only a minor problem... Of course, I could elaborate and give some suggestions if you are interested

Also, for dynasties, they are typically named after either their noble titles in the prervious dynasty (e.g. Han, Sui, Tang, Song), or otherwise named after the region the state was founded (Later Liang, Later Jin, the Yans' in the North-South division etc....)....However, dynastic names such as "Lu" and "Chen" are not used unless the Emperors' last names were the same as the dynastic name (no correlation between Chen Baxian's (陈霸先)naming of his dynasty in the Southern Dynasty with the Spring and Autumn state of Chen)...Therefore, having an Emperor with a last name of Jia of the Cheng dynasty doesnt really make sense...

Also, I would've expected the Emperors of Tang to gradually start conflicts with regoinal military commanders, and start attempting to replace some of them with those from the Imperial family (like they did with OTL)...

Anyways, enjoyed it greatly!

-Black Prince of Britannia
 
Fascinating, not many well-thought Chinese althist are present, they're mostly either wanks or just written by those who have little understanding of Asian history in general.

Anyways, not mu ch to say as I haven't thoroughly wnet over the entire time-line... But a "glaring" problem is the posthumous names of the emperors and the dynastic names.... I know it's going to be a hassel to change it again, but I just want to say that posthumous names can not be interpreted directly through Chinese-English translations (as you have done with Yuanzong: 元宗), the meaning must be understood through historical usages and the actions of previous Emperors of other dynasties...Also, sarcasm may also be employed (such as the case for the OTL Tang Wenzong (唐文宗)and Tang Wuzong(唐武宗))....Your best bet is to use the Book of Zhou Customs (周礼)to find the actual meanings for each titles (assuming that you're familiar with the Chinese language due to your fluent usage of chinese names and characters...or that could just be google translate and copy-paste)...But then again, this is only a minor problem... Of course, I could elaborate and give some suggestions if you are interested

Also, for dynasties, they are typically named after either their noble titles in the prervious dynasty (e.g. Han, Sui, Tang, Song), or otherwise named after the region the state was founded (Later Liang, Later Jin, the Yans' in the North-South division etc....)....However, dynastic names such as "Lu" and "Chen" are not used unless the Emperors' last names were the same as the dynastic name (no correlation between Chen Baxian's (陈霸先)naming of his dynasty in the Southern Dynasty with the Spring and Autumn state of Chen)...Therefore, having an Emperor with a last name of Jia of the Cheng dynasty doesnt really make sense...

Also, I would've expected the Emperors of Tang to gradually start conflicts with regoinal military commanders, and start attempting to replace some of them with those from the Imperial family (like they did with OTL)...

Anyways, enjoyed it greatly!

-Black Prince of Britannia
Well, I'm glad to have another reader. After all, I write for an audience, and it would be no fun just to write for myself. I'm not fluent in terms of language writing, but I hope to be.

I can easily change the dynastic names since I'm not committed to them. I don't see why I'd need to change them either, because I can just give the dynastic founders a title correlating to the new dynasty. So Wang Zhao (王兆) of the Lu Dynasty could get the title of Duke of Lu during the Tang, or something like that.

However, I don't see any reason to change the posthumous names. I can leave them untranslated, since that would be less effort for me, actually. Which specific ones are you opposed to? Because as I see it, even I had kept Yuanzong (元宗) and not changed it to Ningzong (寧宗), it still should have been acceptable because it is a real temple name. You're welcome to give suggestions for new names, but I don't feel any reason to use them.
 
One of these days, I'm going to read this whole thing from start to finish and try to appreciate it despite my utter lack of detailed knowledge regarding the OTL background. In the meantime, please keep up your hard work.
 

Deleted member 67076

This timeline is absolutely fascinating. I'll be following this eagerly!

Forgive me if this is has been covered (I'm still on the second page) but how have Persia and India been effected by this TL?
 
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