Swedish Intervention in the Crimean War

[Grimm Reaper]

I doubt Denmark was wildly eager to enter any particular wars but the Tsar's claims on Holstein were not likely to be invoked, least of all during the Crimean War, by any non-suicidal Tsar.

The Tsar claiming Holstein or trying to influence Holstein's succession would be the thing to guarantee provoking both Austria and Prussia, the only major powers not already at war with Russia.


67th Tigers, we've got all of Europe united in a crusade against the Tsar. If this continues to 1860 does this distraction of Anglo-French forces have an effect on southern decision making when Lincoln is elected?

 

[arctic warrior]

There wasn't a deal per se at the Congress of Vienna, rather Norway was given to Sweden as compensation for the loss of Finland(several years earlier), and also to punish Denmark which waited a bit too long to abandon Napoleon's side.

Abdul is correct on the list of allies a belligerent Sweden would have enjoyed which leaves open the idea that Sweden might have been able to enjoy some Russian concessions in return for continued neutrality.

Not congress of Vienna - 18 century Swedish Russian alliance. To keep Denmark-Norway and Sweden in line Sweden was threatened with having Finland taken away and then get Norway as compensation. Then Denmark-Norway would accede.

I know the King of Sweden toyed with the idea of joining but as far as I know the government was staunchly against.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

arctic warrior, 18th Century bargaining had nothing to do with it.

Napoleon organized a joint effort against Sweden which went much more poorly than anticipated, primarily due to the mutiny of his Spanish forces, while the strange showing of the Swedish commander at Helsinki, possibly bribed by the Russians, is the only thing that let the Russians win in Finland.

Had the king of Sweden been able to resolve differences with Great Britain it is likely Sweden would have gained Norway a decade sooner and not lost Finland.

 

[arctic warrior]

I doubt Denmark was wildly eager to enter any particular wars but the Tsar's claims on Holstein were not likely to be invoked, least of all during the Crimean War, by any non-suicidal Tsar.

The Tsar claiming Holstein or trying to influence Holstein's succession would be the thing to guarantee provoking both Austria and Prussia, the only major powers not already at war with Russia.


67th Tigers, we've got all of Europe united in a crusade against the Tsar. If this continues to 1860 does this distraction of Anglo-French forces have an effect on southern decision making when Lincoln is elected?

You must remember this is 1855. What kind of persons rules Europe? KINGS!
How do they justify their access to power? Divine accept and inheritance - rock that like the 1848 revolution did and have the reaction!

You obviously don't understand the forces governing Europe at this time.
The Tsar didn't try he did claim Holstein for one of the side-lines and influenced the succession. And who should deny him his rights besides - France?????????????????????

 

[arctic warrior]

arctic warrior, 18th Century bargaining had nothing to do with it.

Napoleon organized a joint effort against Sweden which went much more poorly than anticipated, primarily due to the mutiny of his Spanish forces, while the strange showing of the Swedish commander at Helsinki, possibly bribed by the Russians, is the only thing that let the Russians win in Finland.

Had the king of Sweden been able to resolve differences with Great Britain it is likely Sweden would have gained Norway a decade sooner and not lost Finland.

Nope - the underlying foundation goes a century longer back.

I doubt the second part - not with a turncoat Russian Tsar like Alexander 1.

 

[Oddball]

Nope - the underlying foundation goes a century longer back.

I doubt the second part - not with a turncoat Russian Tsar like Alexander 1.

Again I find myself in total agreement

 

[67th Tigers]

I doubt Denmark was wildly eager to enter any particular wars but the Tsar's claims on Holstein were not likely to be invoked, least of all during the Crimean War, by any non-suicidal Tsar.

The Tsar claiming Holstein or trying to influence Holstein's succession would be the thing to guarantee provoking both Austria and Prussia, the only major powers not already at war with Russia.


67th Tigers, we've got all of Europe united in a crusade against the Tsar. If this continues to 1860 does this distraction of Anglo-French forces have an effect on southern decision making when Lincoln is elected?

One of the butterfly effects here is that in return for Denmark's intervention ISTR the British and French offered to guarantee Denmarks borders.

By 1856, I think that the allied successes of 1855 had convinced most of Europe the allies were going to win, and there were spoils to be had....

 

[arctic warrior]

One of the butterfly effects here is that in return for Denmark's intervention ISTR the British and French offered to guarantee Denmarks borders.

That would necessiate a remake of the 1851-52 London agreement of ending the first Slesvig War.
Problem is that Britain and France may wish to do so but what about Prussia, German Confederation and Austria as well as Russia?
How will they treat the succession?
How is the Slesvig-Holstein-Lauenburg matter going to be solved? The duchies were going to be kept together but Holstein-Lauenburg to be part of the German Confederation and Slesvig part of Denmark. Are Britain and France going to tell Prussia-Germany and Austria that well we agreed to this during the 1851-52 agreements but now these are void!?
Whats going to conpensate for loss of German natives to a foreign power? This is a hot issue in German lands!!!

 

[chris N]

Great Britain tried to get Sweden to enter the Crimean war. It would seem to me that in view of the "GREAT GAME" the was played between Great Britain and Russia during the 19th and into the early part of the 20th century the British government would have been more than willing to give assurance of aid to Sweden in the even that Russia attacked it to get Back Finland. The were many near war experiences as the British felt that the Russian were threating its position in India. The last time the British took action was in 1902 when it invaded Nepal and part of Tibet because of evidence that Russia was shipping arms into the area.

 

[arctic warrior]

Great Britain tried to get Sweden to enter the Crimean war. It would seem to me that in view of the "GREAT GAME" the was played between Great Britain and Russia during the 19th and into the early part of the 20th century the British government would have been more than willing to give assurance of aid to Sweden in the even that Russia attacked it to get Back Finland. The were many near war experiences as the British felt that the Russian were threating its position in India. The last time the British took action was in 1902 when it invaded Nepal and part of Tibet because of evidence that Russia was shipping arms into the area.

But the Swedes just went for assurances of borders of Sweden-Norway. Even if the King wanted to join in!

 

[chris N]

But there were elements in Sweden and even in Finland that wanted the restoration of the Finnish province to Sweden.

 

[arctic warrior]

But there were elements in Sweden and even in Finland that wanted the restoration of the Finnish province to Sweden.

Yes in Sweden - don't know about Finland, but probably - but they did not have political influence to have their way.

 

[chris N]

There was and is a considerable ethnic Swedish-Finish population in Finland so that they might have helped to encourage the Swedish Government and King to enter the war to save them frm the Russian Bear.

 

[Max Sinister]

As I said in other places: Sweden might theoretically join and get at least a part of Finland, but they'd have to fear that Russia would fight for Finland at the next opportunity, and this time Sweden wouldn't be supported by a great international coalition. Said coalition wanted to knock back Russia, not knock it out forever.

 

[chris N]

But , for most of the latter part of the 19th century (from 1840 on) Great Britain felt that Russia was a threat to its empire so it would probably be more than willing to aide Sweden with an alliance so as to weaken russia.

 

[Max Sinister]

Then they'd risk that some other state (Prussia is a good candidate, France too) decides to ally with Russia against Britain.

 

[chris N]

Prussia would never be a serious enough threat until after 1871 While the French might be a threat it would probably result in the other european powers being suck into the dispute. In fact France never seriously challenged the British after 1815. The Fashoda incident is proof of this.